Thracian Posted 2 July 2016 Share Posted 2 July 2016 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36692057 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr The Singh Posted 2 July 2016 Share Posted 2 July 2016 You know you're required to wear a crown, some lavishing clothes with cape, hold a scepter and rule from Aberystwyth.The women of Aberystwyth won't know what hit them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 2 July 2016 Share Posted 2 July 2016 I saw many people on here, Facebook etc all say they vote be tempted to vote to leave but weren't going to because they would be at the mercy of a Tory government led by Boris and Gove. Fair enough. Just because I find it hard to believe doesn't make it a fact. People are even more daft than I thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 2 July 2016 Share Posted 2 July 2016 That'd make a good thread, what would you spend a trillion on if you were a government? I'd build a hospital every day of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thracian Posted 2 July 2016 Share Posted 2 July 2016 What i meant when i said "people voted for nothing", is that they voted for a concept, leaving the EU, but they didnt vote for anything tangible. They didnt know whether they were getting a complete retreat out of the EU, immigration completely on our terms, an increased budget that could go on public spending, or whether they were getting whats being mooted around about some kind of watered down deal where immigration remains the same in exchange for access to the single market etc. My view point is that surely you need something tangible to vote on, rather than a concept and then deciding how youre actually going to implement it after the vote is won. Surely you should have some conservative and labour brexit plans in the event of the leave vote? Its like me saying ive got a scheme that will make you £1000 an hour. And then people agreeing to my plans and joining my scheme. Despite the fact that they dont know whats involved in my plans, what i want from them, and my plans themselves arent concrete or agreed with anyone, so might not work anyway. If the viewpoint of the public is for an idea of how to leave the EU but their idea is unsustainable or impractical for example, then youve still got a big disconnect between the people and government. It's not for me to speak for anyone else but I voted for entirely specific and unambiguous reasons to leave the EU. I don't recall anything else being offered through the democratic process. The notion of leaving was never connected to terms and conditions. If we agree to remain in the single market I don't see why we should accept any conditions related to freedom of movement, open door immigration, remaining subject to the European Court of Human Rights or anything else because the very concept of Independence is not independence if it's weighed down with pre-conditions. I know what I'd like to see and the problem is that approaching half the people in this country seem to want something else. But the only "right" as the country is set up, is the voice of the democratic process. I've already said I don't really agree with democracy. It's seriously flawed for the very simple reason that's been questioned above - that people can vote without knowledge or understanding, they can vote for all sorts of uninformed reasons and just because more people vote one way than the other, it doesn't mean their choice is necessarily the best one because "right" depends on your situation and your point of view. I happen to agree with the choice made this time but I still think Cameron was wrong to call a referendum. He was the nation's leader. He was the man in the most privileged position to evaluate the facts and he should have made the decision. As my oldest said, he would "never have turned the most important decision of his own company's existence over to his workforce." for all that he might have listened to opinion from anyone of them of all of them. But, the referendum was held and it offered a perfectly clear verdict. The Conservatives now need to address the underlying reasons for that verdict and act on them. And I don't see any way that Teresa May is representative of those views at all. Yes, it's fair that her voice is heard and listened to. But no, she shouldn't spearhead the implementing of the democratic verdict. Because she doesn't in any way represent the views of the people who gave it. Teresa May is not a "Leave" politician. She has also already said she'll not disconnect us from the Human Rights legislation. That's not restoring our independence. It's a fudge before we start. We need to make our own laws. I want to remain an ally of Europe when we leave the EU and firmly believe that others will wish to have a similar status either now or in time. But the very thought of having the likes of Juncker holding a gun to our heads ad infinitum is unacceptable to me. In fact I wouldn't happily negotiate at all if he's involved...I'd rather just set the process in motion and let our membership lapse. There'll be no silencing the prophets of doom, the people who pretend we can't make our way without holding the dictatorial hand of the EU. But we can and we will. "Little" Wales showed what can be done on a football pitch with the right attitude and application and we can do the same as a nation if we apply the same pride, imagination, hard work and self belief. But it's a pride that was sadly lacking in our own football adventure and a pride that's been systematically eroded ever since the Blairites and successive associates started softening us up, downgrading our self-worth and even started stealthily giving away our identity and ability to govern ourselves. And it was by stealth because Blair never showed the slightest inclination to come clean about anything important whether it be weapons of mass destruction or the federalisation of a Europe I believe he'd so have loved to preside over whatever became of England and the UK. Even now that shameful individual can't stop mouthing his four-pennyworth. As if he's not done enough damage already. Because i tell you this. If I came on here with the blood on my hands that he has on his, the acidic vitriol would cut through the metal of a Centurion Tank. And if we add the costs on top then all you supporters of socialism could have had as many hospitals, schools and as much welfare provision as you could reasonably wish for. And i doubt that much of today's disharmony would even exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaelicFox Posted 2 July 2016 Share Posted 2 July 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thracian Posted 2 July 2016 Share Posted 2 July 2016 http://news.sky.com/story/1720505/leadsom-attacks-may-over-eu-as-support-grows Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 2 July 2016 Share Posted 2 July 2016 Good grief people are actually marching today against the biggest mandate in political history. What do we want? ! Another referendum When do we want it?! Every time we lose! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thracian Posted 2 July 2016 Share Posted 2 July 2016 Seems I'm not the only one who's fed up of the threatmonger. http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/681236/Angela-Merkel-facing-referendum-Germany-fed-up-head-EU-government-Jean-Claude-Juncker?utm_source=outbrain&utm_medium=recommendations&utm_term=paid&utm_content=dx-news-showbiz&utm_campaign=2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 2 July 2016 Share Posted 2 July 2016 A series of excellent articles in the Grauniad today: Natalie Nougayrède (of Le Monde) on why the EU will concentrate on its own interests, not on helping Britain, and will be too preoccupied with its own problems to offer concessions over freedom of movement etc. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/02/europe-cant-rescue-britain-saving-itself-immigration Deborah Orr on why, post-Brexit, it is the interests of elites that will continue to be served, as they were by both New Labour & the Tories, while Joe Public pays the price, the Tories serve their masters & Corbynistas admire their belly buttons: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/01/brexit-britain-elites-run-amok Jonathan Freedland on the contemptible conduct of Johnson & Gove and the potential economic & social outlook, post-Brexit: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/01/boris-johnson-and-michael-gove-betrayed-britain-over-brexit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thracian Posted 2 July 2016 Share Posted 2 July 2016 http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/685377/UK-join-Nordic-alliance-non-EU-countries-Iceland-president-Brexit-EEA With Sweden makiing increasingly loud noises about having a referendum we could yet start aligning with some of our closest natural allies. And I wouldn't rule out Russia's involvement in time. I've long advocated a more positive dialogue with Russia and believe that the EU has done much to provoke the Ukrainian crisis with it's unfettered ambition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Countryfox Posted 2 July 2016 Share Posted 2 July 2016 http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/685377/UK-join-Nordic-alliance-non-EU-countries-Iceland-president-Brexit-EEA With Sweden makiing increasingly loud noises about having a referendum we could yet start aligning with some of our closest natural allies. And I wouldn't rule out Russia's involvement in time. I've long advocated a more positive dialogue with Russia and believe that the EU has done much to provoke the Ukrainian crisis with it's unfettered ambition. I've already said this but Russia would be an interesting new 'friend'. In the same way that the EU would give us no concessions so as to try and stop others leaving ... Russia would do the opposite to encourage others to leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 2 July 2016 Share Posted 2 July 2016 We don't need nor want to be sucking up to Russia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 2 July 2016 Share Posted 2 July 2016 Interesting question, really. Who should the allies of the UK be? Things are a little cool between the UK and the US right now, for instance. Is anyone here brave or foolhardy enough to think we don't need any at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m4DD0gg Posted 2 July 2016 Share Posted 2 July 2016 Good grief people are actually marching today against the biggest mandate in political history. What do we want? ! Another referendum When do we want it?! Every time we lose! You would have thought a load of hippies marching on london would not want to be part of an oppressive federation Julie & David from Islington are in bits that Davids cushy bank job is in jeopardy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Col city fan Posted 2 July 2016 Share Posted 2 July 2016 You would have thought a load of hippies marching on london would not want to be part of an oppressive federation Julie & David from Islington are in bits that Davids cushy bank job is in jeopardy. Spot on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Countryfox Posted 2 July 2016 Share Posted 2 July 2016 We don't need nor want to be sucking up to Russia. I don't think we should suck up to anyone but should look to broaden our horizons ... who knows it might even provide a platform for greater unity. These are interesting and exciting new times Webbo and we shouldn't close any doors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thracian Posted 2 July 2016 Share Posted 2 July 2016 I've already said this but Russia would be an interesting new 'friend'. In the same way that the EU would give us no concessions so as to try and stop others leaving ... Russia would do the opposite to encourage others to leave. Putin's been quoted today as saying he's "optimistic" about a new relationship with the UK. That might come to also involve greater trade links with China as the dust settles. Already there are signs that the whole adventure might not be the continuous doom and gloom the pressimists have predicted, quite the contrary. Indeed I read an article some months back saying how our own roots are arguably more closely connected to the northern Europeans than anyone else and I believe i'm right in saying that Sweden - under consider pressure to have its own referendum - considers the UK to be its firmest ally in the EU debating chamber. Certainly I've seen and heard enough contempt for the UK's views from the existing European alliance these last few months so I've no concerns about an alternative directions. But even Germany might want to think long and hard about where its support lies - and indeed its future - because they're going to be saddled with a lot of responsibility for helping to keep ailing economies alive in what many see to be a weakening group and one of their few financial near-equals - at present - is the UK. Maybe that helps explain, at least in part, the now ongoing accession talks with Turkey. http://news.sky.com/story/1719792/turkey-and-eu-begin-brussels-accession-talks If anyone kids me there's no fast-tracking in the offing I'm not convinced. And the partial free movement deal only emphasises the EU's commitment to more immigration, more pressures and more impact on existing societies, and this from a nation whose leader openly wants his country to be the central hub of an Ottoman-style caliphate. Some say Turkey will never be accepted into the EU. But it doesn't look that way to me. Erdogan has built over 17,000 mosques and other prayer sites since he came to power, many across the breadth of the EU, and with others planned. Why would this naturally autocratic man do that if he doesn't expect admittance to the EU and why would the talks towards that end be ongoing if the EU could see no way of it happening? Are Germany concerned? I can't speak for Germany. But I did come across this. . http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7931/germany-islam-law Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thracian Posted 2 July 2016 Share Posted 2 July 2016 We don't need nor want to be sucking up to Russia. Forgetting the "sucking up" bit, why's that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 2 July 2016 Share Posted 2 July 2016 Forgetting the "sucking up" bit, why's that? It's a corrupt dictatorship and no friend of ours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 2 July 2016 Share Posted 2 July 2016 It's a corrupt dictatorship and no friend of ours. Wouldn't be the first time the UK has been friendly with corrupt dictatorships. Of course, that is no reason to pursue such a course this time. But we do have previous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 2 July 2016 Share Posted 2 July 2016 Putin is a complete crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m4DD0gg Posted 2 July 2016 Share Posted 2 July 2016 Putin is a complete crazy. Maybe but at least he has a back bone and follows through on what he says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 2 July 2016 Share Posted 2 July 2016 It's a corrupt dictatorship and no friend of ours. I'd don't understand how someone can berate Turkey and promote Russia with a straight face to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammie82uk Posted 2 July 2016 Share Posted 2 July 2016 Just seen this on sky news, it appears that him just like many others don't seem to have understood what the vote was about Musician Jarvis Cocker recorded a video message for the estimated 30,000 people who took part in the march. In the message filmed in a recording studio in Paris, the Pulp frontman held up a world map and said: "You cannot deny geography. The UK is in Europe. How can you take it out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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