Brexit Discussion Thread.

[Strokes]

Just seen this on sky news, it appears that him just like many others don't seem to have understood what the vote was about

Musician Jarvis Cocker recorded a video message for the estimated 30,000 people who took part in the march.

In the message filmed in a recording studio in Paris, the Pulp frontman held up a world map and said: "You cannot deny geography. The UK is in Europe. How can you take it out?

Yeah that's deep Jarvis, take a bow man, take a bow.

[Dodgy Bob]

Cosying up to Russia

These really are fascinating times we're living in.

I'd don't understand how someone can berate Turkey and promote Russia with a straight face to be honest.

Of course you do, you just don't want to say it

[ajthefox]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/01/boris-johnson-and-michael-gove-betrayed-britain-over-brexit

 

I like reading the guardian generally but sometimes I do wonder. 

 

This decision was the biggest exercise of democracy we have ever seen and we are bound to stand by it, not deny people what they voted for. That means we all make the best of the situation we are in, not write apocalyptic articles.

[Sharpe's Fox]

Putin is a boss. Watch this video and you will love him afterwards.

[LanguedocFox]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/01/boris-johnson-and-michael-gove-betrayed-britain-over-brexit

 

I like reading the guardian generally but sometimes I do wonder. 

 

This decision was the biggest exercise of democracy we have ever seen and we are bound to stand by it, not deny people what they voted for. That means we all make the best of the situation we are in, not write apocalyptic articles.

 

I voted Remain, so it's unsurprising that I disagree with your conclusion.

 

Jonathan Freedland's point, well argued I think, is that Johnson and Gove treated the country, each other and - most importantly - the facts, with utter contempt. On one level you could say that the vote was the "biggest exercise in democracy we have seen", but it is fairly clear that the arguments presented in favour of leaving were spurious, dishonest and - ultimately - unachievable. To that extent, it was utterly democratic - unless the demos is allowed to revise its conclusion.

 

The Leave campaign was led by Gove and Johnson, neither of whom had considered what the fvck would happen if they won. Johnson, in particular, got involved in a completely cynical way, because he thought it would raise his profile in preparation for a shot at the leadership of the Tory Party. If the Leave campaign had lost by the same 3.8% as they won, he could accept the adulation of the Tory right as a man who campaigned valiantly but failed. As Freedland points out, "In seven days he has been exposed as an egomaniac whose vanity and ambition was so great he was prepared to lead his country on a path he knew led to disaster, so long as it fed his own appetite for status."

 

The UK will be living with the results of his egomania, and that of Gove, for years to come. I'm 70 and will live out my final years suffering the consequences. But my children and grandchildren will have to suffer them for far longer than I will. As Freedland implies, none of us should ever forget, nor ever forgive, their dishonesty and stupidity.

[LanguedocFox]

Putin is a boss. Watch this video and you will love him afterwards.

 

Well, apart from the fact that Russia is a corrupt basket case where half the population live in poverty. Putin, of course, lives in luxury, as befits a modern-day Czar.

[Thracian]

Nothing's convinced me yet re your comments about Putin . We deal with all sorts at times...and two randomly picked articles I've posted below don't suggest a crazy man nor do his actions in the IS conflict when he really might have lost it.

 

What they do paint is a man who stands his ground and believes his country should be a part of things (Eurasian reference) which is exactly how I've seen opportunities arising for a while.

 

Note also the reference to the pipeline through Turkey which I mentioned some time ago as a potential reason for the EU's courting Turkey's accession ...and not the only reason.

 

I've also included a link about Erdogan. On the face of it he's been allied to the West in the IS conflict but even if that were the full story which doesn't necessarily tally with things I've read, there is no question that Erdogan is gathering ever more authority in his country and here's little doubt that those who voice their opposition to him seem to find themselves in serious trouble. Saints are few and far between in politics. 

 

Yet, the EU clearly sees Erdogan good, Putin bad.  So simple. So defined. A bit like on here sometimes!   .

 

And what about President Obama?   Why not key in "Obama's Caliphate Agenda" and weigh up that discussion. I'm just the messenger but there's a hell of a lot of words written in a public domain for them all to be iffy.

 

Me I'm just a non-academic layman who was brought up in a caravan, is way past my sell-by date and who was always much more into sport than studying. 

 

But the world doesn't feel right just now.

 

I don't pretend to know the answers but instinct's been telling me me for ages that we need to wise up, to keep the Russians and Chinese on our side and not close our eyes to anythingl.

 

It's been said before on here, "The Times They Are A-Changin" and we don't want to be caught dancing to the wrong tune.

 

And nor does Germany to be honest.

 

I'm an admittedly reluctant friend of the Germans, and with good reason for folk of my generation. But, I've mellowed these last few years and honestly believe we're better on the same side than pulling each other to pieces, hence the need for a friendly goodbye to the EU - and continued goodwill in the future.    

 

But there are so many tripwires. Melodramatic? Let me pose a question. Why would anyone build 17000 places of prayer and more on the way - and in such a short time as Erdogan has done?

 

So the faithful can humble themselves before Islam without the slightest doubt. And why not?

There is nothing more uplifting than the true messages of holiness and humility as expressed in earliest Islam, in Christianity and in a good many other faiths.    

 

But what else? Surely, with a little looking, the clues might be found because Erdogan has the kind of vanity that will always offer clues.

Make no mistake though. Barring the unexpected, he'll leave his mark and be remembered big time. He's got the nerve. 

        

https://www.yahoo.com/news/putin-is-not-crazy--frustrating--unpredictable--not-crazy-174921588.html?ref=gs

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/diane-francis/putin-ruthless-policy_b_5627651.html

 

http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/erdogans-march-to-dictatorship-in-turkey

[Thracian]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/01/boris-johnson-and-michael-gove-betrayed-britain-over-brexit

 

I like reading the guardian generally but sometimes I do wonder. 

 

This decision was the biggest exercise of democracy we have ever seen and we are bound to stand by it, not deny people what they voted for. That means we all make the best of the situation we are in, not write apocalyptic articles.

 

 

Ridiculously selective outlook that has too many mistaken assumptions to even start to be convincing. Disappointing for a paper of the Guardian's standing.    

[Sharpe's Fox]

Well, apart from the fact that Russia is a corrupt basket case where half the population live in poverty. Putin, of course, lives in luxury, as befits a modern-day Czar.

Yeah but "give me back my pen" what a man

[Thracian]

I voted Remain, so it's unsurprising that I disagree with your conclusion.

 

Jonathan Freedland's point, well argued I think, is that Johnson and Gove treated the country, each other and - most importantly - the facts, with utter contempt. On one level you could say that the vote was the "biggest exercise in democracy we have seen", but it is fairly clear that the arguments presented in favour of leaving were spurious, dishonest and - ultimately - unachievable. To that extent, it was utterly democratic - unless the demos is allowed to revise its conclusion.

 

The Leave campaign was led by Gove and Johnson, neither of whom had considered what the fvck would happen if they won. Johnson, in particular, got involved in a completely cynical way, because he thought it would raise his profile in preparation for a shot at the leadership of the Tory Party. If the Leave campaign had lost by the same 3.8% as they won, he could accept the adulation of the Tory right as a man who campaigned valiantly but failed. As Freedland points out, "In seven days he has been exposed as an egomaniac whose vanity and ambition was so great he was prepared to lead his country on a path he knew led to disaster, so long as it fed his own appetite for status."

 

The UK will be living with the results of his egomania, and that of Gove, for years to come. I'm 70 and will live out my final years suffering the consequences. But my children and grandchildren will have to suffer them for far longer than I will. As Freedland implies, none of us should ever forget, nor ever forgive, their dishonesty and stupidity.

 

Johnson and Gove didn't influence my vote one bit. Sympathy? Both have my complete contempt. Lots of politicians are egomaniac's - and none more than Blair who the Guardian doubtless championed at the time. I'm nearly 70 and can't wait for the new challenge and the wonderful opportunity to take our independence and stand for something again instead of being a puppet of the EU and the Junck male that so gleefully mocks us.       

[Dodgy Bob]

Just going back a bit to the generational divide thing, interesting article discussing how today's pensioners are better off than any pensioners have been in history or will be in the forseeable future.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/jul/02/peak-pensioner-todays-workers-former-salary

Champagne leavers? What's it matter to them if the working population never gets a pay rise (no rise since 2007 + likely upcoming recession = a possible two decades of wage stagnation, a whole generation) when they've got a triple lock on pension increases.

[Alf Bentley]

I voted Remain, so it's unsurprising that I disagree with your conclusion.

 

Jonathan Freedland's point, well argued I think, is that Johnson and Gove treated the country, each other and - most importantly - the facts, with utter contempt. On one level you could say that the vote was the "biggest exercise in democracy we have seen", but it is fairly clear that the arguments presented in favour of leaving were spurious, dishonest and - ultimately - unachievable. To that extent, it was utterly democratic - unless the demos is allowed to revise its conclusion.

 

The Leave campaign was led by Gove and Johnson, neither of whom had considered what the fvck would happen if they won. Johnson, in particular, got involved in a completely cynical way, because he thought it would raise his profile in preparation for a shot at the leadership of the Tory Party. If the Leave campaign had lost by the same 3.8% as they won, he could accept the adulation of the Tory right as a man who campaigned valiantly but failed. As Freedland points out, "In seven days he has been exposed as an egomaniac whose vanity and ambition was so great he was prepared to lead his country on a path he knew led to disaster, so long as it fed his own appetite for status."

 

The UK will be living with the results of his egomania, and that of Gove, for years to come. I'm 70 and will live out my final years suffering the consequences. But my children and grandchildren will have to suffer them for far longer than I will. As Freedland implies, none of us should ever forget, nor ever forgive, their dishonesty and stupidity.

 

 

Excellent post. You've mostly taken the words out of my mouth, Languedoc.

 

I'd just add that Freedland doesn't "seek to deny people what they voted for", he just massively regrets it as he foresees it having disastrous consequences for a very long time. If LCFC replaced Ranieri with Steve McLaren and swapped Vardy for Ade Akinfenwa, I'd view those as disastrous decisions, would feel entitled to express that view and wouldn't feel obliged to just "make the best of the situation".

 

Freedland is only offering an opinion, although it's an opinion apparently shared by a lot of people, including the Governor of the Bank of England, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the ratings agencies.

 

Of course, some dismiss all experts and feel that the future is so bright they've got to wear shades. They won't want to watch this video, as it's given by a Professor of European Law, an "expert":

 

[ajthefox]

Putin is a boss. Watch this video and you will love him afterwards.

 

"Classic Putin" 

[ajthefox]

I voted Remain, so it's unsurprising that I disagree with your conclusion.

 

Jonathan Freedland's point, well argued I think, is that Johnson and Gove treated the country, each other and - most importantly - the facts, with utter contempt. On one level you could say that the vote was the "biggest exercise in democracy we have seen", but it is fairly clear that the arguments presented in favour of leaving were spurious, dishonest and - ultimately - unachievable. To that extent, it was utterly democratic - unless the demos is allowed to revise its conclusion.

 

The Leave campaign was led by Gove and Johnson, neither of whom had considered what the fvck would happen if they won. Johnson, in particular, got involved in a completely cynical way, because he thought it would raise his profile in preparation for a shot at the leadership of the Tory Party. If the Leave campaign had lost by the same 3.8% as they won, he could accept the adulation of the Tory right as a man who campaigned valiantly but failed. As Freedland points out, "In seven days he has been exposed as an egomaniac whose vanity and ambition was so great he was prepared to lead his country on a path he knew led to disaster, so long as it fed his own appetite for status."

 

The UK will be living with the results of his egomania, and that of Gove, for years to come. I'm 70 and will live out my final years suffering the consequences. But my children and grandchildren will have to suffer them for far longer than I will. As Freedland implies, none of us should ever forget, nor ever forgive, their dishonesty and stupidity.

 

I actually am disappointed we have left for what it's worth, but that itself is besides my point.

 

I do not disagree with many of the points he makes about Boris and Gove, but Freedland in my opinion is belittling the vote itself, which was what part of my original point was. There a lot of people on the remain side who are talking in such a way that they are belittling swathes of the population.

 

For starters, no-one knows exactly what is going to happen in the future. The outlook changes depending on who you listen to, and whilst I don't think the outlook is great, the last thing we need now is sensational, overly negative stuff like this. Hyperbole it may be, but stuff like what he writes below is just rubbish. Something of this ilk in the Daily Mail would get hammered.

 

"And for what? So Boris could get a job and so Gove, Hannan and the rest could make Britain more closely resemble the pristine constitutional models of the nation-state found in 17th-century tracts of political philosophy, rather than one that might fit into the interdependent" 

 

More importantly as I said, my problem is with the tone and the condescension.

 

"He knew it was best for Britain to remain in the EU. But it served his ambition to argue otherwise. We just weren’t meant to fall for it."

 

He knew it was best did he? Oh, well he is the only person in the world who knew then, because as far as I was aware this is unprecedented and no-one knew. And the fact that he says fall for it. I'm not sure how well the 17 million people who voted for Leave would take the idea that they were conned into voting the way they did.

[Thracian]

Just going back a bit to the generational divide thing, interesting article discussing how today's pensioners are better off than any pensioners have been in history or will be in the forseeable future.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/jul/02/peak-pensioner-todays-workers-former-salary

Champagne leavers? What's it matter to them if the working population never gets a pay rise (no rise since 2007 + likely upcoming recession = a possible two decades of wage stagnation, a whole generation) when they've got a triple lock on pension increases.

 

 

 

It matters to me. I'll be out working at 5.45am tomorrow for all that I'm well past retirement age. Hope it's the same in 10 years time. Stop feeling so sorry for yourself. If you want something enough there's always a way.

 

I remember my youngest wanting to learn snow sports as a  teenager. Expensive or what? He was a trainee chef. he attached himself to a hotel in the Alps, prepared food in the morning, cooked it in the evening and drew £100 a week for his wages, full board,  plus free ski-ing gear,  passes etc and every afternoon off to fulfill his ambition.

 

Ended up good enough to be a snow sports instructor in about two or three disciplines, gained language skills and vital international experience in his cheffing career. It's all about attitude. Can do, will do.

 

Unhappy? Work for yourself and sort your own wages. Why should someone else provide for you if all you're going to do is moan?        

[Carl the Llama]

Excellent post. You've mostly taken the words out of my mouth, Languedoc.

 

I'd just add that Freedland doesn't "seek to deny people what they voted for", he just massively regrets it as he foresees it having disastrous consequences for a very long time. If LCFC replaced Ranieri with Steve McLaren and swapped Vardy for Ade Akinfenwa, I'd view those as disastrous decisions, would feel entitled to express that view and wouldn't feel obliged to just "make the best of the situation".

 

Freedland is only offering an opinion, although it's an opinion apparently shared by a lot of people, including the Governor of the Bank of England, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the ratings agencies.

 

Of course, some dismiss all experts and feel that the future is so bright they've got to wear shades. They won't want to watch this video, as it's given by a Professor of European Law, an "expert":

 

Brilliantly incisive stuff that video.  Equally good as a drinking game too; take a shot every time he says um.  I'm about 5 minutes in and alerady it's gteting hard to tpye.;;....

[Strokes]

I actually am disappointed we have left for what it's worth, but that itself is besides my point.

 

I do not disagree with many of the points he makes about Boris and Gove, but Freedland in my opinion is belittling the vote itself, which was what part of my original point was. There a lot of people on the remain side who are talking in such a way that they are belittling swathes of the population.

 

For starters, no-one knows exactly what is going to happen in the future. The outlook changes depending on who you listen to, and whilst I don't think the outlook is great, the last thing we need now is sensational, overly negative stuff like this. Hyperbole it may be, but stuff like what he writes below is just rubbish. Something of this ilk in the Daily Mail would get hammered.

 

"And for what? So Boris could get a job and so Gove, Hannan and the rest could make Britain more closely resemble the pristine constitutional models of the nation-state found in 17th-century tracts of political philosophy, rather than one that might fit into the interdependent" [/size]

 

More importantly as I said, my problem is with the tone and the condescension.

 

"He knew it was best for Britain to remain in the EU. But it served his ambition to argue otherwise. We just weren’t meant to fall for it."[/size]

 

He knew it was best did he? Oh, well he is the only person in the world who knew then, because as far as I was aware this is unprecedented and no-one knew. And the fact that he says fall for it. I'm not sure how well the 17 million people who voted for Leave would take the idea that they were conned into voting the way they did.

What pisses me off, is the way it's assumed that all leave voters should be embarrassed because it's all proven to be lies. Nothing has come out we didn't already know, Gove is a cùnt, Boris is a scaremonger, yada yada. We knew this before, it's not like all the remain campaigners are painting themselves in glory. A huge proportion of people who voted in the referendum voted on what they know, from their day to day lives. Not many people were not chainging their minds because of recent campaigns, this is something that has been debated for decades. My mind was made up from the moment Cameron came back with nothing and to be honest, he would have had to come back with a hell of a lot to have changed me from leave. I don't think this is untypical. Boris and Gove were preaching to the converted by and large and that's why we don't give a shit what they do or where they go, we didn't vote for them.

I'm keen to find out now who will prepare the best deal for Britain, how they will execute it and I hope we get to vote on it.

[Thracian]

What pisses me off, is the way it's assumed that all leave voters should be embarrassed because it's all proven to be lies. Nothing has come out we didn't already know, Gove is a cùnt, Boris is a scaremonger, yada yada. We knew this before, it's not like all the remain campaigners are painting themselves in glory. A huge proportion of people who voted in the referendum voted on what they know, from their day to day lives. Not many people were not chainging their minds because of recent campaigns, this is something that has been debated for decades. My mind was made up from the moment Cameron came back with nothing and to be honest, he would have had to come back with a hell of a lot to have changed me from leave. I don't think this is untypical. Boris and Gove were preaching to the converted by and large and that's why we don't give a shit what they do or where they go, we didn't vote for them.

I'm keen to find out now who will prepare the best deal for Britain, how they will execute it and I hope we get to vote on it.

 

 

 

Absolutely - the campaign was wishy-washy on both sides and was hardly likely to have changed anyone's mind. The problems which prompted the vote were there for anyone and everyone to see...and had been for a long time.     

[Dodgy Bob]

It matters to me. I'll be out working at 5.45am tomorrow for all that I'm well past retirement age. Hope it's the same in 10 years time. Stop feeling so sorry for yourself. If you want something enough there's always a way.

I remember my youngest wanting to learn snow sports as a teenager. Expensive or what? He was a trainee chef. he attached himself to a hotel in the Alps, prepared food in the morning, cooked it in the evening and drew £100 a week for his wages, full board, plus free ski-ing gear, passes etc and every afternoon off to fulfill his ambition.

Ended up good enough to be a snow sports instructor in about two or three disciplines, gained language skills and vital international experience in his cheffing career. It's all about attitude. Can do, will do.

Unhappy? Work for yourself and sort your own wages. Why should someone else provide for you if all you're going to do is moan?

All well and good but doesn't address the point which is that people of working age are being shafted in terms of tax and public services to fund a lifestyle of unprecedented and unsustainable extravagance for a single generation of pensioners.

[m4DD0gg]

Putin is a boss. Watch this video and you will love him afterwards.

 

Exactly Putin is a boss. Full of nationalist pride.

[leicsmac]

Exactly Putin is a boss. Full of nationalist pride.

...which is a good thing when you're expressing pride in your own country, but somewhat less when you're using it to disparage, belittle and in some cases flat out intimidate other nations, as well as the citizens within your own nation (frequent homophobic murders carried out by gangs while police look the other way, anyone?) Most people seem to think that one aspect of national pride can't be done without the other.

Shouldn't single out Putin for doing such things, however - he's hardly the only leader who carries out and encourages such stuff. I despise realpolitik.

[Alf Bentley]

What pisses me off, is the way it's assumed that all leave voters should be embarrassed because it's all proven to be lies. Nothing has come out we didn't already know, Gove is a cùnt, Boris is a scaremonger, yada yada. We knew this before, it's not like all the remain campaigners are painting themselves in glory. A huge proportion of people who voted in the referendum voted on what they know, from their day to day lives. Not many people were not chainging their minds because of recent campaigns, this is something that has been debated for decades. My mind was made up from the moment Cameron came back with nothing and to be honest, he would have had to come back with a hell of a lot to have changed me from leave. I don't think this is untypical. Boris and Gove were preaching to the converted by and large and that's why we don't give a shit what they do or where they go, we didn't vote for them.

I'm keen to find out now who will prepare the best deal for Britain, how they will execute it and I hope we get to vote on it.

 

 

I take your point about many people not being influenced by Gove & Johnson, but I bet many WERE influenced by the Leave campaign...the polls did shift, after all. How many, we may never know.

 

I'm unclear about your 2 points in bold, though:

- What do you feel that "a huge proportion of people" knew about the EU "from their day to day lives"?

- By "who will prepare the best deal for Britain", do you mean out of the Tory leadership candidates? And when you say that you "hope we get to vote on it", do you mean at an early general election? If so and if the Tories lost their majority, would you accept that as over-ruling the referendum result? Or are you saying you'd like a second referendum once the final terms are known? If so, wouldn't that be moving the goalposts....and wouldn't the rest of the EU tell us to fvck off, they're not waiting 2 years for another UK referendum, they want a decision very soon (as they've already demanded)?

[m4DD0gg]

...which is a good thing when you're expressing pride in your own country, but somewhat less when you're using it to disparage, belittle and in some cases flat out intimidate other nations, as well as the citizens within your own nation (frequent homophobic murders carried out by gangs while police look the other way, anyone?) Most people seem to think that one aspect of national pride can't be done without the other.

Shouldn't single out Putin for doing such things, however - he's hardly the only leader who carries out and encourages such stuff. I despise realpolitik.

 

and whats not to like about that?

 

Show them whos boss!

[Realist Guy In The Room]

I take your point about many people not being influenced by Gove & Johnson, but I bet many WERE influenced by the Leave campaign...the polls did shift, after all. How many, we may never know.

I'm unclear about your 2 points in bold, though:

- What do you feel that "a huge proportion of people" knew about the EU "from their day to day lives"?

- By "who will prepare the best deal for Britain", do you mean out of the Tory leadership candidates? And when you say that you "hope we get to vote on it", do you mean at an early general election? If so and if the Tories lost their majority, would you accept that as over-ruling the referendum result? Or are you saying you'd like a second referendum once the final terms are known? If so, wouldn't that be moving the goalposts....and wouldn't the rest of the EU tell us to fvck off, they're not waiting 2 years for another UK referendum, they want a decision very soon (as they've already demanded)?

I honestly think that more people were swayed to vote leave by the remain campaign. It concentrated on telling people they were wrong to have concerns about immigration, that everything was absolutely rosey now and if we leave the EU, nothing would survive, not even bacteria.

If remain had actually listened to the concerns and addressed them properly instead of saying every time someone raised the point of immigration, 'I dont like the way this debate is taking a nasty, divisive route', they probably would have won. Whether or not people's immigration opinions were based on mis-information, racism or xenophobia, the remain campaign put a blanket on all talk of immigration as being racist to appeal to the liberal left (although I find it odd that any liberal minded person would be in favour of remaining part of one of the most divisive organisations on the planet).

This is the tactic that lost it. The remain campaign made every lower middle/working class person feel like an ignorant racist for having an opinion on immigration.

Remain lost it, Leave didnt win it.

[leicsmac]

and whats not to like about that?

 

Show them whos boss!

 

You know what, you've sold me.

 

Tyranny for everyone!