Brexit Discussion Thread.

[Strokes]

I take your point about many people not being influenced by Gove & Johnson, but I bet many WERE influenced by the Leave campaign...the polls did shift, after all. How many, we may never know.

 

I'm unclear about your 2 points in bold, though:

- What do you feel that "a huge proportion of people" knew about the EU "from their day to day lives"?

- By "who will prepare the best deal for Britain", do you mean out of the Tory leadership candidates? And when you say that you "hope we get to vote on it", do you mean at an early general election? If so and if the Tories lost their majority, would you accept that as over-ruling the referendum result? Or are you saying you'd like a second referendum once the final terms are known? If so, wouldn't that be moving the goalposts....and wouldn't the rest of the EU tell us to fvck off, they're not waiting 2 years for another UK referendum, they want a decision very soon (as they've already demanded)?

Point one.

People already know the EU they live it in, there were no great revelations or myths dispelled during the campaign by and large they were being told what they already know. If you seen the EU as negative before the campaign you would be unlikely to have voted remain and obviously the reverse.

Point two.

I hope we get to vote on a general election, I don't think an exit referendum is needed. This can be in manifestos, for me and be campaigned on.

[Guest]

Maybe but at least he has a back bone and follows through on what he says.

 

No. He's a crazy and does what he wants to. There are many things he says and doesn't do.

[m4DD0gg]

No. He's a crazy and does what he wants to. There are many things he says and doesn't do.

 

Id give him the england job.

[Buce]

Point one.

People already know the EU they live it in, there were no great revelations or myths dispelled during the campaign by and large they were being told what they already know. If you seen the EU as negative before the campaign you would be unlikely to have voted remain and obviously the reverse.

Point two.

I hope we get to vote on a general election, I don't think an exit referendum is needed. This can be

in manifestos, for me and be campaigned on.

But General Elections are not fought on one issue. I would (did) vote to remain but that wouldn't be enough to make me vote Tory if they supported it in their manifesto.

[Thracian]

I honestly think that more people were swayed to vote leave by the remain campaign. It concentrated on telling people they were wrong to have concerns about immigration, that everything was absolutely rosey now and if we leave the EU, nothing would survive, not even bacteria.

If remain had actually listened to the concerns and addressed them properly instead of saying every time someone raised the point of immigration, 'I dont like the way this debate is taking a nasty, divisive route', they probably would have won. Whether or not people's immigration opinions were based on mis-information, racism or xenophobia, the remain campaign put a blanket on all talk of immigration as being racist to appeal to the liberal left (although I find it odd that any liberal minded person would be in favour of remaining part of one of the most divisive organisations on the planet).

This is the tactic that lost it. The remain campaign made every lower middle/working class person feel like an ignorant racist for having an opinion on immigration.

Remain lost it, Leave didnt win it.

 

Pretty much spot on for me. Alf Bentley made a couple of  good points that made me reconsider for a while but almost every time I heard one of the Remainders speak or listened to Juncker's contemptuous threats and a few other doom merchants I became more committed than ever.

 

Regrets? Not at all. I want out as quickly as practical, full independence, our own laws, the best trade deals we can forge with anyone including Europe, Scandinavia, Russia, China and so many others and a strengthening of our bonds with the other nations of the UK including the Scots - for all that I wonder if they're still capable of thinking for themselves just now, given the control  Sturgeon seems to have over so many of them and that despite their own referendum.

 

It's strange about people. They talk with reverence about democracy and freedom but show contempt for democracy and sacrifice freedoms without a whimper.

 

As for another referendum about the terms of leaving the EU, I don't see the point. Our voters have given the mandate to leave. It wasn't subject to terms and conditions. But it would be right to have Brexiteers at the helm of our exit negotiations because they are the ones who will surely be most committed to the task.

[Thracian]

No. He's a crazy and does what he wants to. There are many things he says and doesn't do.

 

 

 

We don't need to look overseas to find political parallels on that score.  

[reynard]

 

 

Regrets? Not at all. I want out as quickly as practical, full independence, our own laws, the best trade deals we can forge with anyone including Europe, Scandinavia, Russia, China and so many others and a strengthening of our bonds with the other nations of the UK including the Scots - for all that I wonder if they're still capable of thinking for themselves just now, given the control  Sturgeon seems to have over so many of them and that despite their own referendum.

 

I'm not sure if you meant to be this patronising but it certainly comes across that way. Of course the Scots are capable of thinking for themselves. As are the Northern Irish. Both countries may choose to leave the UK in the future or both might stay we shall just have to wait. Sturgeon, like her or not, is just about the shrewdest politician around at the moment. I'm afraid your approach comes across as the type of  English arrogance that just makes the Scottish people resent us more. But maybe you didn't mean it that way.

 

I agree with you that our Government should now get on with it. The people have spoken and the delay in invoking Article 50 is frankly unacceptable both to the British people and to the millions of EU citizens affected by our decision through no fault of their own. Personally though I don't care whether the next PM was in or out I just want the best person for the job because it sure won't be easy. The current offering don't inspire me with much confidence.

We should take heed of the Swiss negotiations which have been ongoing since their immigration referendum in 2014 and have not yet been settled as there is no agreement concerning freedom of movement. I note the following and the possibility of Switzerland losing its access to the free market.

"The EU has previously shown its negotiating muscle by freezing research grants for Swiss universities worth hundreds of millions of euros and suspending the involvement of the Swiss in the Erasmus student exchange programme. The EU acted after the Swiss refused to sign a free labour market access deal signed by the EU in Croatia."

 

It would be a shame if future students in the UK were not able to enjoy the opportunities enjoyed by students of the last 20+ years merely because of a vote.

[The Guvnor]

I'm not sure if you meant to be this patronising but it certainly comes across that way. Of course the Scots are capable of thinking for themselves. As are the Northern Irish. Both countries may choose to leave the UK in the future or both might stay we shall just have to wait. Sturgeon, like her or not, is just about the shrewdest politician around at the moment. I'm afraid your approach comes across as the type of  English arrogance that just makes the Scottish people resent us more. But maybe you didn't mean it that way.

 

I agree with you that our Government should now get on with it. The people have spoken and the delay in invoking Article 50 is frankly unacceptable both to the British people and to the millions of EU citizens affected by our decision through no fault of their own. Personally though I don't care whether the next PM was in or out I just want the best person for the job because it sure won't be easy. The current offering don't inspire me with much confidence.

We should take heed of the Swiss negotiations which have been ongoing since their immigration referendum in 2014 and have not yet been settled as there is no agreement concerning freedom of movement. I note the following and the possibility of Switzerland losing its access to the free market.

"The EU has previously shown its negotiating muscle by freezing research grants for Swiss universities worth hundreds of millions of euros and suspending the involvement of the Swiss in the Erasmus student exchange programme. The EU acted after the Swiss refused to sign a free labour market access deal signed by the EU in Croatia."

 

It would be a shame if future students in the UK were not able to enjoy the opportunities enjoyed by students of the last 20+ years merely because of a vote.

With regards to comments made about students. In an ideal world any decent person would not want anyones aspirations or chances to be affected by a political decision. 'Merely because of a vote' may I suggest one of the most important and historic democratic votes in the history of British politics

[Thracian]

I'm not sure if you meant to be this patronising but it certainly comes across that way. Of course the Scots are capable of thinking for themselves. As are the Northern Irish. Both countries may choose to leave the UK in the future or both might stay we shall just have to wait. Sturgeon, like her or not, is just about the shrewdest politician around at the moment. I'm afraid your approach comes across as the type of  English arrogance that just makes the Scottish people resent us more. But maybe you didn't mean it that way.

 

I agree with you that our Government should now get on with it. The people have spoken and the delay in invoking Article 50 is frankly unacceptable both to the British people and to the millions of EU citizens affected by our decision through no fault of their own. Personally though I don't care whether the next PM was in or out I just want the best person for the job because it sure won't be easy. The current offering don't inspire me with much confidence.

We should take heed of the Swiss negotiations which have been ongoing since their immigration referendum in 2014 and have not yet been settled as there is no agreement concerning freedom of movement. I note the following and the possibility of Switzerland losing its access to the free market.

"The EU has previously shown its negotiating muscle by freezing research grants for Swiss universities worth hundreds of millions of euros and suspending the involvement of the Swiss in the Erasmus student exchange programme. The EU acted after the Swiss refused to sign a free labour market access deal signed by the EU in Croatia."

 

It would be a shame if future students in the UK were not able to enjoy the opportunities enjoyed by students of the last 20+ years merely because of a vote.

 

https://www.rt.com/news/346884-switzerland-eu-membership-application-rejected/

[Thracian]

I'm not sure if you meant to be this patronising but it certainly comes across that way. Of course the Scots are capable of thinking for themselves. As are the Northern Irish. Both countries may choose to leave the UK in the future or both might stay we shall just have to wait. Sturgeon, like her or not, is just about the shrewdest politician around at the moment. I'm afraid your approach comes across as the type of  English arrogance that just makes the Scottish people resent us more. But maybe you didn't mean it that way.

 

I agree with you that our Government should now get on with it. The people have spoken and the delay in invoking Article 50 is frankly unacceptable both to the British people and to the millions of EU citizens affected by our decision through no fault of their own. Personally though I don't care whether the next PM was in or out I just want the best person for the job because it sure won't be easy. The current offering don't inspire me with much confidence.

We should take heed of the Swiss negotiations which have been ongoing since their immigration referendum in 2014 and have not yet been settled as there is no agreement concerning freedom of movement. I note the following and the possibility of Switzerland losing its access to the free market.

"The EU has previously shown its negotiating muscle by freezing research grants for Swiss universities worth hundreds of millions of euros and suspending the involvement of the Swiss in the Erasmus student exchange programme. The EU acted after the Swiss refused to sign a free labour market access deal signed by the EU in Croatia."

 

It would be a shame if future students in the UK were not able to enjoy the opportunities enjoyed by students of the last 20+ years merely because of a vote.

 

 

It was meant to be a bit of light-hearted teasing but I should have known better. 

[jammie82uk]

This is getting beyond ridiculous now

EU referendum: government faces legal action over Brexit decision | Law | The Guardian - www.theguardian.com

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2016/jul/03/parliament-must-decide-whether-or-not-to-leave-the-eu-say-lawyers?campaign_id=A100&campaign_type=Email

Crowdfunding for lawyers as well

Should Parliament decide? - CrowdJustice - www.crowdjustice.co.uk

https://www.crowdjustice.co.uk/case/should-parliament-decide/

[Guest]

As a neutral observer (I've no dog in this fight) I'm curious as to how those who are critical of Leavers, view other countries who have abstained or withdrawn application to the EU? (i.e. switzerland, iceland, norway etc) Is their stance similarly viewed as backwards, xenophobic, racist, uninformed etc etc?

 

Not trying to stir anything up, just curious.

[GaelicFox]

Boris's former campaign manager, Ben Wallace MP, wrote in the Telegraph: "When I was a government whip and Michael was the chief whip, the office leaked like a sieve.

"Important policy and personnel details made their way to the papers. Michael seems to have an emotional need to gossip, particularly when drink is taken, as it all too often seemed to be."

Asked to comment on the claims, a spokesman for Mr Gove said: "We wish Ben Wallace well"

[GaelicFox]

As a neutral observer (I've no dog in this fight) I'm curious as to how those who are critical of Leavers, view other countries who have abstained or withdrawn application to the EU? (i.e. switzerland, iceland, norway etc) Is their stance similarly viewed as backwards, xenophobic, racist, uninformed etc etc?

Not trying to stir anything up, just curious.

This is a special type of inhouse shite talk conducted in Britain only

[Thracian]

This is getting beyond ridiculous now

EU referendum: government faces legal action over Brexit decision | Law | The Guardian - www.theguardian.com

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2016/jul/03/parliament-must-decide-whether-or-not-to-leave-the-eu-say-lawyers?campaign_id=A100&campaign_type=Email

Crowdfunding for lawyers as well

Should Parliament decide? - CrowdJustice - www.crowdjustice.co.uk

https://www.crowdjustice.co.uk/case/should-parliament-decide/

 

 

 

It's a disgrace but exactly what I expected. I see May's for long-term leaving rather than getting on with it too, again, just as I expected.

 

Leadsom's for a prompt exit. That's what we need and what the EU is asking for. The rest is all distraction and various interested parties riding roughshod over democracy and a mode of decision-making the they'd never object to if they were getting their own way.

 

I see  "Grin and Blair It's" got involved on the Remain case. As if he's not done enough harm to countless people already.        

[Thracian]

As a neutral observer (I've no dog in this fight) I'm curious as to how those who are critical of Leavers, view other countries who have abstained or withdrawn application to the EU? (i.e. switzerland, iceland, norway etc) Is their stance similarly viewed as backwards, xenophobic, racist, uninformed etc etc?

 

Not trying to stir anything up, just curious.

 

 

 

For me the three countries you mention have set an example. And the sooner others follow suit the better. There's a better world out there but the EU is certainly not going to lead us there.     

[Jon the Hat]

Why is it the media are merrily still reporting that the Leave campaign was all based on lies, when 1) They only seem to have 2 examples - the "£350M to the NHS" which was obviously an example not a policy statement, and 2) Dan Hannan saying immigration might not come down, when he had been saying that all through the campaign.  Meanwhile zero comment on the non existent emergency austerity budget from Osbourne; No comment on the drop in mortgage rates vs what we were threatened with; no comment on Obama completely backtracking on the back of the queue nonsense, and hardly any comment on the countries around the world who reacted positively to the result.  Markets in chaos! Until the FTS recovered after a week, The pound plummets! like this is all bad news.

 

Meanwhile lets all protest and vote online because we lost.  Pathetic.

[Thracian]

Why is it the media are merrily still reporting that the Leave campaign was all based on lies, when 1) They only seem to have 2 examples - the "£350M to the NHS" which was obviously an example not a policy statement, and 2) Dan Hannan saying immigration might not come down, when he had been saying that all through the campaign.  Meanwhile zero comment on the non existent emergency austerity budget from Osbourne; No comment on the drop in mortgage rates vs what we were threatened with; no comment on Obama completely backtracking on the back of the queue nonsense, and hardly any comment on the countries around the world who reacted positively to the result.  Markets in chaos! Until the FTS recovered after a week, The pound plummets! like this is all bad news.

 

Meanwhile lets all protest and vote online because we lost.  Pathetic.

 

 

 

It's called hypocrisy. Here's some more. Talk about two-faced.  Don't get me wrong - many people can wise up and change their minds about something. But this just smacks of a bitter opportunist who doesn't know what he stands for.  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36700468. 

[DJ Barry Hammond]

It's called hypocrisy. Here's some more. Talk about two-faced.  Don't get me wrong - many people can wise up and change their minds about something. But this just smacks of a bitter opportunist who doesn't know what he stands for.  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36700468. 

Which one of the six people mentioned in the article are you on about? Or could it be all of them?

[act smiley]

As a neutral observer (I've no dog in this fight) I'm curious as to how those who are critical of Leavers, view other countries who have abstained or withdrawn application to the EU? (i.e. switzerland, iceland, norway etc) Is their stance similarly viewed as backwards, xenophobic, racist, uninformed etc etc?

 

Not trying to stir anything up, just curious.

 

The EEA-but-not-EU option is good for smaller countries that wouldn't have much pull on major EU laws if they joined, but they still end up having to have about half of them anyway. The UK's got the Veto, which means we already have our cake and eat it on that front, so pulling out to go for that option seems pointless. Also, being in the EEA means all those countries have freedom of movement, anyway.

[Jon the Hat]

The EEA-but-not-EU option is good for smaller countries that wouldn't have much pull on major EU laws if they joined, but they still end up having to have about half of them anyway. The UK's got the Veto, which means we already have our cake and eat it on that front, so pulling out to go for that option seems pointless. Also, being in the EEA means all those countries have freedom of movement, anyway.

 

We want a tariff free trade deal and residence rights for existing expats in both directions.  Not that complicated really.

[Guest]

So Farage resigns and infers that UKIP shouldn't contest the next general election.

 

Bomb.

[Thracian]

Which one of the six people mentioned in the article are you on about? Or could it be all of them?

 

 

 

I was talking about Johnson although I entirely agree it could apply to others.

 

But how is Leadsom shown up at hypocritical? If you've read something I've not I'd be happy to hear.

 

Yes, I know she's dramatically changed her views on the EU and is quite open about it to the point of revealing how much detail she went into in studying it's effect and impact on the UK. I'd take that as reassuring.

 

Clearly - at least to me - she's actually looked at the EU in depth (having been a supporter) and concluded she was wrong. Much the same as many others.       

[Alf Bentley]

So Farage resigns and infers that UKIP shouldn't contest the next general election.

 

Bomb.

 

 

Did he say UKIP shouldn't contest the election?!? All I've seen (Telegraph) is that he thought UKIP shouldn't stand against pro-Brexit Tories....quite different.

 

UKIP under Nuttall or Woolfe (both northerners) to mainly target Lab Brexit voters in North/Midlands - and pissed-off Tories in struggling seaside towns of East & SE?

 

I wonder if he reckons this will give him a better chance of getting on the Brexit negotiating team? He's staying on in the European Parliament (though that might be for cash & trolling) and is calling for a cross-party Brexit negotiating team.

[Guest]

Did he say UKIP shouldn't contest the election?!? All I've seen (Telegraph) is that he thought UKIP shouldn't stand against pro-Brexit Tories....quite different.

 

UKIP under Nuttall or Woolfe (both northerners) to mainly target Lab Brexit voters in North/Midlands - and pissed-off Tories in struggling seaside towns of East & SE?

 

I wonder if he reckons this will give him a better chance of getting on the Brexit negotiating team? He's staying on in the European Parliament (though that might be for cash & trolling) and is calling for a cross-party Brexit negotiating team.

 

I understood that he believed UKIP shouldn't stand in the general election unless the new government didn't follow up properly on the Brexit vote and then should stand in 2020. Further I understood that he felt UKIP's battles were elsewhere.

 

I think he'd like to be involved in the negotiation team but he didn't put himself forward for it - just inferred he'd accept if asked and believed all parties should be involved.