Brexit Discussion Thread.

[Alf Bentley]

I understood that he believed UKIP shouldn't stand in the general election unless the new government didn't follow up properly on the Brexit vote and then should stand in 2020. Further I understood that he felt UKIP's battles were elsewhere.

 

I think he'd like to be involved in the negotiation team but he didn't put himself forward for it - just inferred he'd accept if asked and believed all parties should be involved.

 

 

Fair dos. All will become clear eventually - and he might change his mind, anyway.

 

I didn't see the speech, just saw a report on it.

[Alf Bentley]

Point one.

People already know the EU they live it in, there were no great revelations or myths dispelled during the campaign by and large they were being told what they already know. If you seen the EU as negative before the campaign you would be unlikely to have voted remain and obviously the reverse.

Point two.

I hope we get to vote on a general election, I don't think an exit referendum is needed. This can be in manifestos, for me and be campaigned on.

 

 

Point One: People might find that a lot of what they knew (and didn't like) about "the EU they live in" was actually what they knew (and didn't like) about the UK they live in....we'll see! Take your point that the campaign probably shifted very few votes....though maybe enough to have been crucial. We'll probably never know.

 

Point Two: Wouldn't it create a constitutional dilemma if a general election was won by a party that wanted to cancel Brexit, though? Purely hypothetical and probably unlikely to happen in the current political climate....but would Brexit voters accept the referendum being overturned through the result of a general election?

[Dodgy Bob]

Why is it the media are merrily still reporting that the Leave campaign was all based on lies, when 1) They only seem to have 2 examples - the "£350M to the NHS" which was obviously an example not a policy statement, and 2) Dan Hannan saying immigration might not come down, when he had been saying that all through the campaign. Meanwhile zero comment on the non existent emergency austerity budget from Osbourne; No comment on the drop in mortgage rates vs what we were threatened with; no comment on Obama completely backtracking on the back of the queue nonsense, and hardly any comment on the countries around the world who reacted positively to the result. Markets in chaos! Until the FTS recovered after a week, The pound plummets! like this is all bad news.

Meanwhile lets all protest and vote online because we lost. Pathetic.

I still haven't seen a direct quite from Osborne "threatening" an emergency budget. He suggested there might have to be tax rises and there still might, although he appears to be taking the much less sensible line of giving up on proper fiscal control completely and letting whichever politician has the balls to take on becoming PM deal with that problem in the future.

Way to early to start talking about what might happen to mortgage rates, and the exchange rate has taken a hammering. UK shares look cheap to foreign investors because the pound is so weak, that what propped up the markets last week. Let's see how we fare over the next 12 months. Awful news coming out of the construction sector already with uncertainly over the referendum being blamed for a massive drop in activity, down to levels not seen since the peak of the last financial crisis in 2009. That speaks for a huge drop in confidence and is the first sign of what is likely to be a significant recession just around the corner.

So, although your examples were all only actually quite minor parts of the Remain campaign, the major part of it - the economic impact - is certainly already being felt, and who knows how much worse things are going to get. Meanwhile, the major parts of the leave campaign - getting rid of foreigners and using the money saved on membership elsewhere - have both already been exposed as total lies. Not comparable in the slightest.

[Alf Bentley]

As a neutral observer (I've no dog in this fight) I'm curious as to how those who are critical of Leavers, view other countries who have abstained or withdrawn application to the EU? (i.e. switzerland, iceland, norway etc) Is their stance similarly viewed as backwards, xenophobic, racist, uninformed etc etc?

 

Not trying to stir anything up, just curious.

 

 

I'm a Remain voter who disagrees with Leave voters rather than someone "critical of Leavers" (I'd be critical of the minority of racists, but merely disagree with the majority who voted Leave for other reasons).

 

For me, there's a big difference between opting not to join the EU and opting to leave it after being members for 40+ years. In football terms, it's like the difference between opting not to become an LCFC fan and spending 40 years as a season-ticket holder, then announcing that you've stopped supporting the club as you don't like what it has become....big difference to me.

 

There's also the matter of the size and nature of the countries concerned. The UK has a long history as an outgoing, internationally-oriented nation, and is still at least a medium-sized economic and political power within Europe and worldwide. In contrast, Iceland is a tiny, remote country, and Switzerland & Norway are also fairly small countries with only local influence and/or distinctive qualities (heavy focus on finance and oil & gas/fishing, respectively).

 

In footballing terms, the UK leaving the EU is like Vardy leaving LCFC as he can see no future at the club (Kante = Germany; Mahrez = France).

Norway, Switzerland & Iceland opting not to join is as if Chris Weale, Michael Morrison & Leon Crncic had decided not to sign for us. 

 

I don't generally see Leave voters as "backwards, xenophobic, racist and uninformed" - that might be how some Leave supporters imagine Remainers to think (accurately in some cases, inaccurately in many), but I don't identify with it. A few Leave voters are racist (those going around abusing strangers), a few more are xenophobic (saloon bar grumblers about foreigners) but I don't see anyone as "backward". I do think that a lot of Leave voters were uninformed (even misinformed), but the same applies to many Remain voters - a lot of people voted in a cloud of ignorance and misinformation. Though I arrogantly see myself as better informed than average, I'm by no means certain how well-informed I am: e.g. while I'm expecting Brexit to be disastrous for Britain, it might turn out fine - and there's definitely a chance things will turn disastrous on the continent (though Brexit will make this worse, if anything). Some Leave voters just have different political priorities to me (nationalism or "greater control", though by whom I'm not sure). Others I just imagine to have been frustrated, angry, desperate or fearful about their lives. They obviously think Brexit will improve their lives - and I fear that it will make their/our lives worse.

 

If my pessimism is justified, I fear for this country and particularly for those frustrated, angry, desperate and fearful Brexiteers (as opposed to well-off Tory Eurosceptics, who'll probably be fine). If Brexit does cause a severe long-term economic downturn, lower pay, higher unemployment, brutal austerity cuts, social squalor/unrest and extensive racist violence, I'll (probably) be OK as I'm white, middle-class, middle-aged, co-own a house, have at least some financial means, a British passport and the option of an Irish passport, so I'll probably be "alright, Jack!". I'm not sure a lot of the desperate or fearful Brexit voters will be. Of course, I might be wrong. Post-Brexit Britain may thrive and become a heavenly nirvana - and the EU may become a hell... 

[Strokes]

Point One: People might find that a lot of what they knew (and didn't like) about "the EU they live in" was actually what they knew (and didn't like) about the UK they live in....we'll see! Take your point that the campaign probably shifted very few votes....though maybe enough to have been crucial. We'll probably never know.

 

Point Two: Wouldn't it create a constitutional dilemma if a general election was won by a party that wanted to cancel Brexit, though? Purely hypothetical and probably unlikely to happen in the current political climate....but would Brexit voters accept the referendum being overturned through the result of a general election?

It might, it would be interesting to see. Politics is a mess at the minute anyway, we might as well light the torch paper.

[Guest MattP]

Why is it the media are merrily still reporting that the Leave campaign was all based on lies, when 1) They only seem to have 2 examples - the "£350M to the NHS" which was obviously an example not a policy statement, and 2) Dan Hannan saying immigration might not come down, when he had been saying that all through the campaign.  Meanwhile zero comment on the non existent emergency austerity budget from Osbourne; No comment on the drop in mortgage rates vs what we were threatened with; no comment on Obama completely backtracking on the back of the queue nonsense, and hardly any comment on the countries around the world who reacted positively to the result.  Markets in chaos! Until the FTS recovered after a week, The pound plummets! like this is all bad news.

 

Meanwhile lets all protest and vote online because we lost.  Pathetic.

 

This, this and this!

 

It's astounding how the remainers are trying to put words into the mouth of the leave campaign now when at the same time their own lies and threats are lying in tatters across the political spectrum.

[Alf Bentley]

Why is it the media are merrily still reporting that the Leave campaign was all based on lies, when 1) They only seem to have 2 examples - the "£350M to the NHS" which was obviously an example not a policy statement, and 2) Dan Hannan saying immigration might not come down, when he had been saying that all through the campaign.  

 

 

Here you go, Jon.

 

Prof. Michael Dougan answers your question and explains how Leave was guilty of systematic dishonesty and lying on an industrial scale, citing multiple examples - and looking at the way forward.

 

[Jon the Hat]

Here you go, Jon.

 

Prof. Michael Dougan answers your question and explains how Leave was guilty of systematic dishonesty and lying on an industrial scale, citing multiple examples - and looking at the way forward.

 

 

I've no doubt that there was bullshit from both sides, was more a comment on why the media are only commenting on a couple of things, and why they barely mention the remain bullshit.

[Guest]

This is a special type of inhouse shite talk conducted in Britain only

Easy does it pal. I'm not trying to wind anyone up. I didn't vote for either one and wouldn't have anyway. Merely asking for further perspective on some viewpoints that have been expressed the last few weeks.

 

If the point of my post wasn't clear, I sincerely apologise.

 

 

Edit: Or I've completely misunderstood your comment, in which case I apologise for that too!  

 

I'm just trying to get my baring on some of the stronger language being used, without getting caught in the crossfire. Which is probably like sticking my head in a wasps' nest to see what's going on.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

I've no doubt that there was bullshit from both sides, was more a comment on why the media are only commenting on a couple of things, and why they barely mention the remain bullshit.

Because any remain bullshit is largely academic now... the opposite situation would have been the case in reverse circumstances.

[Strokes]

Because any remain bullshit is largely academic now... the opposite situation would have been the case in reverse circumstances.

It's not because the remain bullshit was also what would happen if we voted leave, the reverse would be academic because we already knew what to expect in the event of remain.

[Thracian]

Point One: People might find that a lot of what they knew (and didn't like) about "the EU they live in" was actually what they knew (and didn't like) about the UK they live in....we'll see! Take your point that the campaign probably shifted very few votes....though maybe enough to have been crucial. We'll probably never know.

 

Point Two: Wouldn't it create a constitutional dilemma if a general election was won by a party that wanted to cancel Brexit, though? Purely hypothetical and probably unlikely to happen in the current political climate....but would Brexit voters accept the referendum being overturned through the result of a general election?

 

I wouldn't. there was a sizeable, some would say massive turnout, and i didn't see the vote as party political at all. It's impossible to guess the breakdown of voting in terms of national party support but it seems clear from all sorts of comments that "Leave" voters covered the spectrum of main parties.      

 

All the wriggling by as many people, parties, lawyers and self-serving organisations won't change the fact that the referendum presented a simple option, was won by a convincing margin both in numbers and by area, so there's no question due process should begin to satisfy that result. 

 

More than that I'm sick of the continued debate. When we vote at election time, the winner becomes known, the new government takes its place and we all get on with it. the same should happen now but it doesn't because people like the BBC and various other interested parties don't want it and will publicise any carefully selected stories or arguments to maintain pressure or win time.

 

It's a disgrace. 

[Thracian]

I've no doubt that there was bullshit from both sides, was more a comment on why the media are only commenting on a couple of things, and why they barely mention the remain bullshit.

 

 

 

Absolutely.

And if you want a glaring example Blair was guilt of gross deception which did massive harm to this country and others - and I said so at the time loud and clear  - but i don't remember any sustained demands to get him out by supposed crusaders like the BBC.

Such hyprocrisy.

I do get pissed off by the way third parties try to manipulate people and how damned naive some of those people are in their willingness to be led and how blind they become when becoming slaves to particular philosophies.

People talk about the importance of education but that's only a positive if the education encourages an enquiring mind rather than seeking to influence beyond the logical and to brainwash people.   

[Alf Bentley]

I've no doubt that there was bullshit from both sides, was more a comment on why the media are only commenting on a couple of things, and why they barely mention the remain bullshit.

 

 

I suppose there's more attention paid to the Leave lies because Leave won, and its plan will be implemented (if it is ever identified). Furthermore, several actual or perceived promises have been reneged on.

 

Plenty of attention was certainly paid to "Project Fear" before the vote, maybe less so now because that project failed and Remain's plan will not be implemented.

 

Incidentally, in that video, Dougan points out that most of the Remain propaganda about the legal/constitutional consequences of Brexit was accurate. That's not the whole truth, admittedly. Even honest economic forecasts can only ever be best estimates - and, more importantly, repeating a series of negative truths and best estimates does create a mood of fear. Remain was wrong to do that....but it misfired, anyway, as people didn't trust them and voted Leave. Maybe if they'd devoted more attention to conveying a positive message about the EU and to debunking Leave's lies, then the outcome might have been different....but maybe not.

 

If you're the open-minded man I believe you to be, though, Jon, I'd recommend a listen to that Dougan video (and the one that he did before the vote - also on Youtube). Very informative - I think (assuming he's not yet another bullshitter - but he'll ruined his reputation and career if he is). 

[Thracian]

I'm a Remain voter who disagrees with Leave voters rather than someone "critical of Leavers" (I'd be critical of the minority of racists, but merely disagree with the majority who voted Leave for other reasons).

 

For me, there's a big difference between opting not to join the EU and opting to leave it after being members for 40+ years. In football terms, it's like the difference between opting not to become an LCFC fan and spending 40 years as a season-ticket holder, then announcing that you've stopped supporting the club as you don't like what it has become....big difference to me.

 

There's also the matter of the size and nature of the countries concerned. The UK has a long history as an outgoing, internationally-oriented nation, and is still at least a medium-sized economic and political power within Europe and worldwide. In contrast, Iceland is a tiny, remote country, and Switzerland & Norway are also fairly small countries with only local influence and/or distinctive qualities (heavy focus on finance and oil & gas/fishing, respectively).

 

In footballing terms, the UK leaving the EU is like Vardy leaving LCFC as he can see no future at the club (Kante = Germany; Mahrez = France).

Norway, Switzerland & Iceland opting not to join is as if Chris Weale, Michael Morrison & Leon Crncic had decided not to sign for us. 

 

I don't generally see Leave voters as "backwards, xenophobic, racist and uninformed" - that might be how some Leave supporters imagine Remainers to think (accurately in some cases, inaccurately in many), but I don't identify with it. A few Leave voters are racist (those going around abusing strangers), a few more are xenophobic (saloon bar grumblers about foreigners) but I don't see anyone as "backward". I do think that a lot of Leave voters were uninformed (even misinformed), but the same applies to many Remain voters - a lot of people voted in a cloud of ignorance and misinformation. Though I arrogantly see myself as better informed than average, I'm by no means certain how well-informed I am: e.g. while I'm expecting Brexit to be disastrous for Britain, it might turn out fine - and there's definitely a chance things will turn disastrous on the continent (though Brexit will make this worse, if anything). Some Leave voters just have different political priorities to me (nationalism or "greater control", though by whom I'm not sure). Others I just imagine to have been frustrated, angry, desperate or fearful about their lives. They obviously think Brexit will improve their lives - and I fear that it will make their/our lives worse.

 

If my pessimism is justified, I fear for this country and particularly for those frustrated, angry, desperate and fearful Brexiteers (as opposed to well-off Tory Eurosceptics, who'll probably be fine). If Brexit does cause a severe long-term economic downturn, lower pay, higher unemployment, brutal austerity cuts, social squalor/unrest and extensive racist violence, I'll (probably) be OK as I'm white, middle-class, middle-aged, co-own a house, have at least some financial means, a British passport and the option of an Irish passport, so I'll probably be "alright, Jack!". I'm not sure a lot of the desperate or fearful Brexit voters will be. Of course, I might be wrong. Post-Brexit Britain may thrive and become a heavenly nirvana - and the EU may become a hell... 

 

 

There's a lot to question there but seeing as the population has voted to leave don't you think we should pull together and try to mould that "nirvana" you mentioned? Like you'd ask the different components of an ambitious football team or a class of kids trying to win a national competition? People will never be the same or think the same but they do seem to achieve more by working in unison.    

[leicsmac]

There's a lot to question there but seeing as the population has voted to leave don't you think we should pull together and try to mould that "nirvana" you mentioned? Like you'd ask the different components of an ambitious football team or a class of kids trying to win a national competition? People will never be the same or think the same but they do seem to achieve more by working in unison.    

 

All well and fair, but the onus to convince the doubters as to the necessity of the 'pulling together' or (if necessary) going it alone is entirely on that of the Leavers. The success and failure of what comes next is entirely up to them.

[Thracian]

All well and fair, but the onus to convince the doubters as to the necessity of the 'pulling together' or (if necessary) going it alone is entirely on that of the Leavers. The success and failure of what comes next is entirely up to them.

 

 

Not sure those London protesters quite got that view across!     

 

But we'll see...at least we might if we finally get on with the job!

[Alf Bentley]

There's a lot to question there but seeing as the population has voted to leave don't you think we should pull together and try to mould that "nirvana" you mentioned? Like you'd ask the different components of an ambitious football team or a class of kids trying to win a national competition? People will never be the same or think the same but they do seem to achieve more by working in unison.    

 

 

I find your question or its implied assumptions strange. I'm not sure what you expect me to do. I have work, family responsibilities and a life. I'll get on with them as best as I can as I did before the vote. I'm a positive person by nature and don't intend to change that. I assume that's what most people will do as they mainly work for themselves, their families, their communities/clients/customers/patients/pupils or whatever. They don't work to create a post-Brexit (or non-Brexit) nirvana.

 

Whether Brexit yields heaven or hell will be determined more by the senior politicians in charge and by business investors, financiers, international institutions, foreign governments etc. Perhaps you should address your exhortations to them?

 

If you're referring to people who are pessimistic about where we're heading, surely it's down to those who believe in Brexit to convince them that the future is bright.

At the moment, the message seems to be: "We don't know what the Brexit plan is, but it's going to turn out great, you've got to believe us". If I was in a team and the manager said that, it wouldn't do much for my morale.

[The Guvnor]

I'm a Remain voter who disagrees with Leave voters rather than someone "critical of Leavers" (I'd be critical of the minority of racists, but merely disagree with the majority who voted Leave for other reasons).

 

For me, there's a big difference between opting not to join the EU and opting to leave it after being members for 40+ years. In football terms, it's like the difference between opting not to become an LCFC fan and spending 40 years as a season-ticket holder, then announcing that you've stopped supporting the club as you don't like what it has become....big difference to me.

 

There's also the matter of the size and nature of the countries concerned. The UK has a long history as an outgoing, internationally-oriented nation, and is still at least a medium-sized economic and political power within Europe and worldwide. In contrast, Iceland is a tiny, remote country, and Switzerland & Norway are also fairly small countries with only local influence and/or distinctive qualities (heavy focus on finance and oil & gas/fishing, respectively).

 

In footballing terms, the UK leaving the EU is like Vardy leaving LCFC as he can see no future at the club (Kante = Germany; Mahrez = France).

Norway, Switzerland & Iceland opting not to join is as if Chris Weale, Michael Morrison & Leon Crncic had decided not to sign for us. 

 

I don't generally see Leave voters as "backwards, xenophobic, racist and uninformed" - that might be how some Leave supporters imagine Remainers to think (accurately in some cases, inaccurately in many), but I don't identify with it. A few Leave voters are racist (those going around abusing strangers), a few more are xenophobic (saloon bar grumblers about foreigners) but I don't see anyone as "backward". I do think that a lot of Leave voters were uninformed (even misinformed), but the same applies to many Remain voters - a lot of people voted in a cloud of ignorance and misinformation. Though I arrogantly see myself as better informed than average, I'm by no means certain how well-informed I am: e.g. while I'm expecting Brexit to be disastrous for Britain, it might turn out fine - and there's definitely a chance things will turn disastrous on the continent (though Brexit will make this worse, if anything). Some Leave voters just have different political priorities to me (nationalism or "greater control", though by whom I'm not sure). Others I just imagine to have been frustrated, angry, desperate or fearful about their lives. They obviously think Brexit will improve their lives - and I fear that it will make their/our lives worse.

 

If my pessimism is justified, I fear for this country and particularly for those frustrated, angry, desperate and fearful Brexiteers (as opposed to well-off Tory Eurosceptics, who'll probably be fine). If Brexit does cause a severe long-term economic downturn, lower pay, higher unemployment, brutal austerity cuts, social squalor/unrest and extensive racist violence, I'll (probably) be OK as I'm white, middle-class, middle-aged, co-own a house, have at least some financial means, a British passport and the option of an Irish passport, so I'll probably be "alright, Jack!". I'm not sure a lot of the desperate or fearful Brexit voters will be. Of course, I might be wrong. Post-Brexit Britain may thrive and become a heavenly nirvana - and the EU may become a hell... 

 

You do seem to be an intelligent man, and you have made you're point about remaining extremely vigorously and enthusiastically, but is there really any need to make some of the statements questioning the intellect of people who have an opposite view to you, very patronising Alf.

[Dodgy Bob]

There's a lot to question there but seeing as the population has voted to leave don't you think we should pull together and try to mould that "nirvana" you mentioned? Like you'd ask the different components of an ambitious football team or a class of kids trying to win a national competition? People will never be the same or think the same but they do seem to achieve more by working in unison.

No shortage of irony in that post.

[reynard]

I'm a Remain voter who disagrees with Leave voters rather than someone "critical of Leavers" (I'd be critical of the minority of racists, but merely disagree with the majority who voted Leave for other reasons).

 

For me, there's a big difference between opting not to join the EU and opting to leave it after being members for 40+ years. In football terms, it's like the difference between opting not to become an LCFC fan and spending 40 years as a season-ticket holder, then announcing that you've stopped supporting the club as you don't like what it has become....big difference to me.

 

There's also the matter of the size and nature of the countries concerned. The UK has a long history as an outgoing, internationally-oriented nation, and is still at least a medium-sized economic and political power within Europe and worldwide. In contrast, Iceland is a tiny, remote country, and Switzerland & Norway are also fairly small countries with only local influence and/or distinctive qualities (heavy focus on finance and oil & gas/fishing, respectively).

 

In footballing terms, the UK leaving the EU is like Vardy leaving LCFC as he can see no future at the club (Kante = Germany; Mahrez = France).

Norway, Switzerland & Iceland opting not to join is as if Chris Weale, Michael Morrison & Leon Crncic had decided not to sign for us. 

 

I don't generally see Leave voters as "backwards, xenophobic, racist and uninformed" - that might be how some Leave supporters imagine Remainers to think (accurately in some cases, inaccurately in many), but I don't identify with it. A few Leave voters are racist (those going around abusing strangers), a few more are xenophobic (saloon bar grumblers about foreigners) but I don't see anyone as "backward". I do think that a lot of Leave voters were uninformed (even misinformed), but the same applies to many Remain voters - a lot of people voted in a cloud of ignorance and misinformation. Though I arrogantly see myself as better informed than average, I'm by no means certain how well-informed I am: e.g. while I'm expecting Brexit to be disastrous for Britain, it might turn out fine - and there's definitely a chance things will turn disastrous on the continent (though Brexit will make this worse, if anything). Some Leave voters just have different political priorities to me (nationalism or "greater control", though by whom I'm not sure). Others I just imagine to have been frustrated, angry, desperate or fearful about their lives. They obviously think Brexit will improve their lives - and I fear that it will make their/our lives worse.

 

If my pessimism is justified, I fear for this country and particularly for those frustrated, angry, desperate and fearful Brexiteers (as opposed to well-off Tory Eurosceptics, who'll probably be fine). If Brexit does cause a severe long-term economic downturn, lower pay, higher unemployment, brutal austerity cuts, social squalor/unrest and extensive racist violence, I'll (probably) be OK as I'm white, middle-class, middle-aged, co-own a house, have at least some financial means, a British passport and the option of an Irish passport, so I'll probably be "alright, Jack!". I'm not sure a lot of the desperate or fearful Brexit voters will be. Of course, I might be wrong. Post-Brexit Britain may thrive and become a heavenly nirvana - and the EU may become a hell... 

 

Excellent well balanced post.

 

I've just come from a meeting with a large national charity today which is likely to lose its £6-8m a year grant from the EU. They are currently assessing how to make up the shortfall but it looks like worthy projects will have to be cut or at best postponed.

[Thracian]

http://news.sky.com/story/1721494/alice-gross-coroner-calls-for-immigration-checks

[reynard]

There's a lot to question there but seeing as the population has voted to leave don't you think we should pull together and try to mould that "nirvana" you mentioned? Like you'd ask the different components of an ambitious football team or a class of kids trying to win a national competition? People will never be the same or think the same but they do seem to achieve more by working in unison.    

 

I think comparing the current situation to a football team is a tad simplistic but I agree with your overall sentiment.

Sadly the business world doesn't wait for this pulling together to start and just gets on with things. The Dollar exchange rate is already starting to cause big investment problems in the medium term and raising costs in the short term. With analysts such as Credit Suisse predicting a sub $1.30 exchange rate and a sub 1.20 Euro rate for the rest of the year and possibly long term as a country which is a net importer it seems likely we shall all see a cost of living increase. We really need to get on with things as the current uncertainty badly threatens foreign capital inflow into the UK. We need this to help balance our economy which is still badly indebted and will be now far beyond 2020.

[Thracian]

 

 

If you're referring to people who are pessimistic about where we're heading, surely it's down to those who believe in Brexit to convince them that the future is bright.

At the moment, the message seems to be: "We don't know what the Brexit plan is, but it's going to turn out great, you've got to believe us". If I was in a team and the manager said that, it wouldn't do much for my morale.

 

 

I've agreed with that all along and sometimes  feel that I've got more positive thoughts about the way ahead post-Brexit, than some of the politicians.  

 

It doesn't help to see the "Leavers" squabbling either but there's so much wrong with the EU and so little chance of anything but token change at best, that Leaving and making our own choices is the only option for me - and an exciting one.

 

Leadsom seems to have studied the subject as much as anyone and to have the balanced intelligence to act firmly in our best interests but yes, the sooner she outlines her vision (if she gets the chance) the better.

 

It's actually quite an embarrassing situation but, perhaps fortunately, British politics is embarrassing all round at the moment and that's diverted some of the focus.

 

I've called for a general attitude of "can do, will do" but that starts with the Conservative Party moulding their own team together and doing what they should do be doing in this time of uncertainty - leading and leading with vision and confidence.

 

At the moment it seems that the entire political spread is reeling with shock like a punchdrunk journeyman.     .   

[Alf Bentley]

You do seem to be an intelligent man, and you have made you're point about remaining extremely vigorously and enthusiastically, but is there really any need to make some of the statements questioning the intellect of people who have an opposite view to you, very patronising Alf.

 

 

I didn't question anyone's intellect. You don't need to be an intellectual to be well-informed. You just need to inform yourself or have others inform you.

 

Both campaigns failed to inform people properly, which was a massive problem that's likely to have massive consequences. I made an effort to inform myself, to the extent that I reckon that I was better informed than average, as I said. Sorry if that sounds arrogant, but I reckon it's true. As I said, though, I'm not sure how well-informed I was. It was a very complicated issue to judge, with a ridiculous number of factors influencing that judgment. I reckon that we've made an enormous mistake with life-changing consequences that could have a very bad effect on this country for decades to come....but I might be quite wrong, Other factors may mean that it works out OK or, more likely, that it turns out a lot worse on the continent.