Brexit Discussion Thread.

[The Guvnor]

I'm a Remain voter who disagrees with Leave voters rather than someone "critical of Leavers" (I'd be critical of the minority of racists, but merely disagree with the majority who voted Leave for other reasons).

 

For me, there's a big difference between opting not to join the EU and opting to leave it after being members for 40+ years. In football terms, it's like the difference between opting not to become an LCFC fan and spending 40 years as a season-ticket holder, then announcing that you've stopped supporting the club as you don't like what it has become....big difference to me.

 

There's also the matter of the size and nature of the countries concerned. The UK has a long history as an outgoing, internationally-oriented nation, and is still at least a medium-sized economic and political power within Europe and worldwide. In contrast, Iceland is a tiny, remote country, and Switzerland & Norway are also fairly small countries with only local influence and/or distinctive qualities (heavy focus on finance and oil & gas/fishing, respectively).

 

In footballing terms, the UK leaving the EU is like Vardy leaving LCFC as he can see no future at the club (Kante = Germany; Mahrez = France).

Norway, Switzerland & Iceland opting not to join is as if Chris Weale, Michael Morrison & Leon Crncic had decided not to sign for us. 

 

I don't generally see Leave voters as "backwards, xenophobic, racist and uninformed" - that might be how some Leave supporters imagine Remainers to think (accurately in some cases, inaccurately in many), but I don't identify with it. A few Leave voters are racist (those going around abusing strangers), a few more are xenophobic (saloon bar grumblers about foreigners) but I don't see anyone as "backward". I do think that a lot of Leave voters were uninformed (even misinformed), but the same applies to many Remain voters - a lot of people voted in a cloud of ignorance and misinformation. Though I arrogantly see myself as better informed than average, I'm by no means certain how well-informed I am: e.g. while I'm expecting Brexit to be disastrous for Britain, it might turn out fine - and there's definitely a chance things will turn disastrous on the continent (though Brexit will make this worse, if anything). Some Leave voters just have different political priorities to me (nationalism or "greater control", though by whom I'm not sure). Others I just imagine to have been frustrated, angry, desperate or fearful about their lives. They obviously think Brexit will improve their lives - and I fear that it will make their/our lives worse.

 

If my pessimism is justified, I fear for this country and particularly for those frustrated, angry, desperate and fearful Brexiteers (as opposed to well-off Tory Eurosceptics, who'll probably be fine). If Brexit does cause a severe long-term economic downturn, lower pay, higher unemployment, brutal austerity cuts, social squalor/unrest and extensive racist violence, I'll (probably) be OK as I'm white, middle-class, middle-aged, co-own a house, have at least some financial means, a British passport and the option of an Irish passport, so I'll probably be "alright, Jack!". I'm not sure a lot of the desperate or fearful Brexit voters will be. Of course, I might be wrong. Post-Brexit Britain may thrive and become a heavenly nirvana - and the EU may become a hell... 

 

 

I didn't question anyone's intellect. You don't need to be an intellectual to be well-informed. You just need to inform yourself or have others inform you.

 

Both campaigns failed to inform people properly, which was a massive problem that's likely to have massive consequences. I made an effort to inform myself, to the extent that I reckon that I was better informed than average, as I said. Sorry if that sounds arrogant, but I reckon it's true. As I said, though, I'm not sure how well-informed I was. It was a very complicated issue to judge, with a ridiculous number of factors influencing that judgment. I reckon that we've made an enormous mistake with life-changing consequences that could have a very bad effect on this country for decades to come....but I might be quite wrong, Other factors may mean that it works out OK or, more likely, that it turns out a lot worse on the continent.

 

Turn it in Alf who are you trying to kid, read your post again using the word backword/s  twice what the hell are you talking about.

[Strokes]

Turn it in Alf who are you trying to kid, read your post again using the word backword/s  twice what the hell are you talking about.

Do you not see the word don't?

[Facecloth]

Turn it in Alf who are you trying to kid, read your post again using the word backword/s  twice what the hell are you talking about.

At the end of sentences where he's stating he doesn't see leave voters as backwards

Think it's you who needs to read it again

[The Guvnor]

At the end of sentences where he's stating he doesn't see leave voters as backwards

Think it's you who needs to read it again

 

 

At the end of sentences where he's stating he doesn't see leave voters as backwards

Think it's you who needs to read it again

 

 

Why on earth would you feel the need to reassure anyone that you don't see leave voters as backwards ? how condescending is that?  please tell, am I missing something there?, regarding the post in question I have never read such a load of sanctimonious twaddle.

[Buce]

Turn it in Alf who are you trying to kid, read your post again using the word backword/s twice what the hell are you talking about.

I suggest you re-read Alf's post, then do the decent thing and apologize.

[The Guvnor]

I suggest you re-read Alf's post, then do the decent thing and apologize.

 

As above thanks for the advice.

[The Doctor]

Why on earth would you feel the need to reassure anyone that you don't see leave voters as backwards ? how condescending is that?  please tell, am I missing something there?, regarding the post in question I have never read such a load of sanctimonious twaddle.

 

The poster Alf was quoting asked if Remain voters also saw the Swiss, Norwegians etc as backwards, xenophobic and so on. Alf was responding to that point. You're making a meal out of nothing. 

[Buce]

As above thanks for the advice.

You're making yourself look a twat, but hey - fill your boots.

[Thracian]

I think comparing the current situation to a football team is a tad simplistic but I agree with your overall sentiment.

Sadly the business world doesn't wait for this pulling together to start and just gets on with things. The Dollar exchange rate is already starting to cause big investment problems in the medium term and raising costs in the short term. With analysts such as Credit Suisse predicting a sub $1.30 exchange rate and a sub 1.20 Euro rate for the rest of the year and possibly long term as a country which is a net importer it seems likely we shall all see a cost of living increase. We really need to get on with things as the current uncertainty badly threatens foreign capital inflow into the UK. We need this to help balance our economy which is still badly indebted and will be now far beyond 2020.

 

Agree entirely.  

[Thracian]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36707573

 

What nonsense - the rights should be guaranteed. Simple as. Part of the notion of regaining our independence is to set our own standards irrespective of anyone else. If these people have already been given the right to live and work here then that should be upheld. Only when notice of quitting is given should new immigration numbers and terms be negotiable.  

[Buce]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36707573

What nonsense - the rights should be guaranteed. Simple as. Part of the notion of regaining our independence is to set our own standards irrespective of anyone else. If these people have already been given the right to live and work here then that should be upheld. Only when notice of quitting is given should new immigration numbers and terms be negotiable.

Too right.

My Polish neighbours, decent, hard-working people, are sick with worry. They've made this their home, and we are lucky to have them here.

[Strokes]

Too right.

My Polish neighbours, decent, hard-working people, are sick with worry. They've made this their home, and we are lucky to have them here.

To use them as a bargaining chip is cruel, we should set the standard and commit right away.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

To use them as a bargaining chip is cruel, we should set the standard and commit right away.

You can't do that if you don't have someone in charge.

[Strokes]

You can't do that if you don't have someone in charge.

The candidates for the Tory party can all say their intentions, it's not like we don't know who is standing.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

The candidates for the Tory party can all say their intentions, it's not like we don't know who is standing.

Yes, but like a lot of things, the situation is not quite as simple as it seems - for example, will there be a cut-off period for this arrangement (given Freedom of Movement still exists now), will there be conditions attached (eg does it require a person(s) to be in employment), what situations might remove a person's right to stay (for example, if someone went back to their base country for a period, could they still come back on their previous terms?)

It's not black and white see - so if there are politicas suggesting it is (and a lot of have) I would question their judgement. That's not to say I'm against the principle of allowing people to stay, far from it, but as always people are looking for simplistic answers to complex problems.

[enmac]

What a surprise a socialist propaganda rag blowing a few nasty incidents out of all proportion. Of course some mouth breathers are going to behave like this, hardly the rise of ****ing Nazi party is it?

The Guardian is not socialist. I suppose Rupert told you that.

If you bothered to check for yourself, you'd find it to be very anti- Corbyn, for example.

[Facecloth]

The candidates for the Tory party can all say their intentions, it's not like we don't know who is standing.

Liam Fox doesn't look very tall so I wasn't sure if he was standing or not.

[enmac]

David Cameron isn't pushing it mate. He is stepping down in 3 months and has already said it will be down to his successor to begin the process.

He's handed the loaded gun to a load of chumps who haven't got the balls to use it - who never, in their wildest dreams, despite their leave campaigns, thought they would get the chance to use it.

Article 50 will not be activated.

It's a farce.

Sorry but it will be. Try googlng "Disaster Capitalism."

[lifted*fox]

Satellite delay.

[Strokes]

Yes, but like a lot of things, the situation is not quite as simple as it seems - for example, will there be a cut-off period for this arrangement (given Freedom of Movement still exists now), will there be conditions attached (eg does it require a person(s) to be in employment), what situations might remove a person's right to stay (for example, if someone went back to their base country for a period, could they still come back on their previous terms?)

It's not black and white see - so if there are politicas suggesting it is (and a lot of have) I would question their judgement. That's not to say I'm against the principle of allowing people to stay, far from it, but as always people are looking for simplistic answers to complex problems.

It can be as simple as you wish to make it. Any EU citizens in the UK before June 27th 2016 will be offered British citizenship and leave to remain. Anybody arriving after this date will have to apply subject to negotiations with the European Union. Extended families currently not working in the UK, will be subject to conditions yet to be confirmed. If you leave the country during this period your rights may be affected.

[Strokes]

Liam Fox doesn't look very tall so I wasn't sure if he was standing or not.

Hobbits not included.

[enmac]

If you can reform the benefit laws I'll change my mind on Brexit. One pound in three I pay to tax, and out of every three tax paid pounds one is for benefits.

Wrong, unless you count State Pension as a benefit.

How exactly do you think the Nazi party gathered support and at what rate? Hundreds of thousands of people weren't already in support of that party.

It took tireless campaigning, rallies and propaganda to get the Third Reich into power - it started with small groups of people in support of it, just like this.

That's not to say we're on the brink of another Third Reich but some people have zero understanding of just how possible it is for things to escalate from tiny beginnings.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

It can be as simple as you wish to make it. Any EU citizens in the UK before June 27th 2016 will be offered British citizenship and leave to remain. Anybody arriving after this date will have to apply subject to negotiations with the European Union. Extended families currently not working in the UK, will be subject to conditions yet to be confirmed. If you leave the country during this period your rights may be affected.

But there's a 5 year residency rule to apply for British citizenship... and what about those that don't wish to apply for citizenship?

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Might I also point out - whilst Freedom of Movement still exists (and conceivably could continue to do so), no-one can take a definitive position on the matter.

[Strokes]

But there's a 5 year residency rule to apply for British citizenship... and what about those that don't wish to apply for citizenship?

Then their rights may be affected, there might be many circumstances where people might not want things. It's an offer that can and should be made. It will ease concerns for so many and can't do much harm to anyone, unless you believe we should use them in negotiations?