Strokes Posted 4 July 2016 Share Posted 4 July 2016 Might I also point out - whilst Freedom of Movement still exists (and conceivably could continue to do so), no-one can take a definitive position on the matter. You can take a definitive position on those here now, those not here yet shouldn't be offered guarantees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Barry Hammond Posted 4 July 2016 Author Share Posted 4 July 2016 Then their rights may be affected, there might be many circumstances where people might not want things. It's an offer that can and should be made. It will ease concerns for so many and can't do much harm to anyone, unless you believe we should use them in negotiations? I'm not saying the principle is not correct - but you can't provide a full meaningful guarantee to anyone, until you know the full details of what that guarantee is and who it will apply to... and given this will be a two way recipicle arrangement and there will be areas of consideration outside of residency such as pension / health care arrangements that will be equally important within this area, it's an area that will need extensive discussion / agreement and ratification through Parliments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Barry Hammond Posted 4 July 2016 Author Share Posted 4 July 2016 You can take a definitive position on those here now, those not here yet shouldn't be offered guarantees. That's a difficult position to take, because whilst Article 50 hasn't been activated we're still obliged to the existing provisions for Freedom of Movement - for we are still a country that abides by law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 5 July 2016 Share Posted 5 July 2016 The poster Alf was quoting asked if Remain voters also saw the Swiss, Norwegians etc as backwards, xenophobic and so on. Alf was responding to that point. You're making a meal out of nothing. Thanks for the support, Doctor (and @@Buce, @@Facecloth, @@Strokes). The Guvnor may have had a Simone Zaza moment misreading my post, but he has a point when he accuses me of posting "sanctimonious twaddle". Sometimes I do, I'm afraid. Not worth anyone getting upset about, anyway. We're all just a bunch of idiots on a football forum at the end of the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 5 July 2016 Share Posted 5 July 2016 To use them as a bargaining chip is cruel, we should set the standard and commit right away. I'm sure it would be reassuring for EU nationals if all candidates announced a policy to allow those already here to stay. It wouldn't have any legal force until legislation was passed, though, so wouldn't be a full guarantee. We all know that individual politicians or political parties promise all sorts of things during election campaigns.....and they don't necessarily happen once those individuals or parties are in power. Doesn't "freedom of movement" continue until we actually leave the EU, though, or have I misunderstood that? If so, then if the Brexit negotiations last until, say, late 2018, and we don't leave until 2019, then surely they'd be OK at least until then? The same applies to newcomers, doesn't it? So, if EU nationals want to come here now or next year, they'll be freely able to do so, won't they (unless Brexit negotiations are super-rapid)? In theory, there could be a high level of EU immigration for 2-3 years yet. However, the uncertainty about the economy and future status might discourage that, likewise reports of hostility to immigrants. If things settle down a bit, that might not bother those who intend to just come over, work for a bit and then return home. What will be the attitude of those who voted Brexit to control immigration, though? Doubtless some would be happy with the idea of those already here staying, provided national control is asserted at some point. Others might not be, particularly if the economic situation deteriorates and jobs are lost or pay stagnates. They might feel that there are already too many foreigners here, never mind allowing free access to more of them over the next 2 years or so.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 5 July 2016 Share Posted 5 July 2016 Brexit may violate UK citizen's rights: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36705580 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Guvnor Posted 5 July 2016 Share Posted 5 July 2016 Thanks for the support, Doctor (and @@Buce, @@Facecloth, @@Strokes). The Guvnor may have had a Simone Zaza moment misreading my post, but he has a point when he accuses me of posting "sanctimonious twaddle". Sometimes I do, I'm afraid. Not worth anyone getting upset about, anyway. We're all just a bunch of idiots on a football forum at the end of the day. I will man up Alf and apologise as I hadn't realised you were responding to a post, simone Zaza more like Mr Magoo i'll concede. The sanctimonious response however........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Facecloth Posted 5 July 2016 Share Posted 5 July 2016 Thanks for the support, Doctor (and @@Buce, @@Facecloth, @@Strokes). The Guvnor may have had a Simone Zaza moment misreading my post, but he has a point when he accuses me of posting "sanctimonious twaddle". Sometimes I do, I'm afraid. Not worth anyone getting upset about, anyway. We're all just a bunch of idiots on a football forum at the end of the day. Oh yeah I never said it wasn't sanctimonious twaddle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted 5 July 2016 Share Posted 5 July 2016 It is honest to say you wont promise EU nationals living in the UK can stay, however also rather naïve. The reality is that everything is on the table in negotiations, but in practical terms it would be impossible to kick anyone out. Imagine the chaos! Jesus. Anyway, the point here is we also need to think of the Brits abroad, who lets face it, we really don't want back - they are painful enough slagging of Britain when they come back and visit! So we have to be able to discuss this. The other question is how you stop 2Million people turning up in the months before we close the borders. Hmm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Barry Hammond Posted 5 July 2016 Author Share Posted 5 July 2016 It is honest to say you wont promise EU nationals living in the UK can stay, however also rather naïve. The reality is that everything is on the table in negotiations, but in practical terms it would be impossible to kick anyone out. Imagine the chaos! Jesus. Anyway, the point here is we also need to think of the Brits abroad, who lets face it, we really don't want back - they are painful enough slagging of Britain when they come back and visit! So we have to be able to discuss this. The other question is how you stop 2Million people turning up in the months before we close the borders. Hmm? Spot on - and ironically the people arguing the toss on this subject are the ones using it for political gain. To me, the stances on this show why May is far and away the most qualified candidate, because she's not going to be suckered into a false promise - but she and everyone knows no government in a sane developed country would embark on a radical programme of mass deportations! I would also suggest having a doubt on the position of EU people already here is the exact thing that could mitigate a large rush before the door is bolted. True, it may not be the best position for those already here, but that is a consequence of the uncertain situation we're in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 5 July 2016 Share Posted 5 July 2016 It is honest to say you wont promise EU nationals living in the UK can stay, however also rather naïve. The reality is that everything is on the table in negotiations, but in practical terms it would be impossible to kick anyone out. Imagine the chaos! Jesus. Anyway, the point here is we also need to think of the Brits abroad, who lets face it, we really don't want back - they are painful enough slagging of Britain when they come back and visit! So we have to be able to discuss this. The other question is how you stop 2Million people turning up in the months before we close the borders. Hmm? The UK is fine. For a 2 week holiday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 5 July 2016 Share Posted 5 July 2016 Spot on - and ironically the people arguing the toss on this subject are the ones using it for political gain. To me, the stances on this show why May is far and away the most qualified candidate, because she's not going to be suckered into a false promise - but she and everyone knows no government in a sane developed country would embark on a radical programme of mass deportations! I would also suggest having a doubt on the position of EU people already here is the exact thing that could mitigate a large rush before the door is bolted. True, it may not be the best position for those already here, but that is a consequence of the uncertain situation we're in. But a lot of leave supporters won't be happy to hear that. They want johnny Foreigner out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Barry Hammond Posted 5 July 2016 Author Share Posted 5 July 2016 But a lot of leave supporters won't be happy to hear that. They want johnny Foreigner out. They won't be happy with a lot of things I expect - but what can you do when you're sold a rainbow of promises that aren't achievable as a combined package? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 5 July 2016 Share Posted 5 July 2016 It is honest to say you wont promise EU nationals living in the UK can stay, however also rather naïve. The reality is that everything is on the table in negotiations, but in practical terms it would be impossible to kick anyone out. Imagine the chaos! Jesus. Anyway, the point here is we also need to think of the Brits abroad, who lets face it, we really don't want back - they are painful enough slagging of Britain when they come back and visit! So we have to be able to discuss this. The other question is how you stop 2Million people turning up in the months before we close the borders. Hmm? It'll be interesting to see whether migration goes up or down in the next couple of years , whether people will want to move to a country without all the wonderful advantages of being in the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 5 July 2016 Share Posted 5 July 2016 It'll be interesting to see whether migration goes up or down in the next couple of years , whether people will want to move to a country without all the wonderful advantages of being in the EU. Very good point, if we have the impending economic disaster upcoming then we aren't going to have a rush to the door if we set a date anyway. It is sad to see people used as bargaining chips but that's the position we appear to be in, both sides will use it, personally up for any concession if it means keeping FIF on the continent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgy Bob Posted 5 July 2016 Share Posted 5 July 2016 The massive weakening of the pound is sure to put quite a few people off. I'm not entirely sure but I wouldn't be surprised if average eastern European salaries are close to UK salaries now already. Certainly if it's financial gain immigrants are looking for then the UK is certain to be less attractive now than it was. We might even see a rush of Brits heading for the EU for better lifestyles and higher incomes. Personally I'm going further away than that but the decision is made for me that I'm not staying here and putting up with earning the devalued pound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 5 July 2016 Share Posted 5 July 2016 My wife had her Walmart share save money today. You save money for 3 years out of your pay packet and you can buy Walmart shares for a set price and then sell them(if you want) for their correct value. 2 months ago they were estimated to be worth £960ish now , thanks to the value of the pound they're worth £50 more. Thanks Brexit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 5 July 2016 Share Posted 5 July 2016 My wife had her Walmart share save money today. You save money for 3 years out of your pay packet and you can buy Walmart shares for a set price and then sell them(if you want) for their correct value. 2 months ago they were estimated to be worth £960ish now , thanks to the value of the pound they're worth £50 more. Thanks Brexit. I'm waiting on a payment from Australia, thanks Brexit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grewks Posted 5 July 2016 Share Posted 5 July 2016 Still find it amusing when politicians are claiming that leave only won because they 'played the race card'. So politicians are basically calling over 50% of the population racists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 5 July 2016 Share Posted 5 July 2016 Still find it amusing when politicians are claiming that leave only won because they 'played the race card'. So politicians are basically calling over 50% of the population racists. About 30%, as it happens. 17 mill out of 60 mill (roughly). But yes, it's unfair to tar all Leave voters with that brush. The ones that voted leave just because they want to see Jonny Foreigner shown the door are a minority, but a rather vocal one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 5 July 2016 Share Posted 5 July 2016 The massive weakening of the pound is sure to put quite a few people off. I'm not entirely sure but I wouldn't be surprised if average eastern European salaries are close to UK salaries now already. Certainly if it's financial gain immigrants are looking for then the UK is certain to be less attractive now than it was. We might even see a rush of Brits heading for the EU for better lifestyles and higher incomes. Personally I'm going further away than that but the decision is made for me that I'm not staying here and putting up with earning the devalued pound. Where are you heading, Moose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 5 July 2016 Share Posted 5 July 2016 'Brexit risks beginning to crystallise' - Bank of England. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36712040 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 5 July 2016 Share Posted 5 July 2016 Very good point, if we have the impending economic disaster upcoming then we aren't going to have a rush to the door if we set a date anyway. It is sad to see people used as bargaining chips but that's the position we appear to be in, both sides will use it, personally up for any concession if it means keeping FIF on the continent. More to the point it might change my plans to retire to the island of Madeira. How much are sea view houses in Cornwall (let's hope the £ goes down a long way ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 5 July 2016 Share Posted 5 July 2016 More to the point it might change my plans to retire to the island of Madeira. How much are sea view houses in Cornwall (let's hope the £ goes down a long way ) Cornwall > Madeira. Although it's getting harder to buy them these days, can't remember the town but they passed a motion a few weeks ago to try and stop rich bastards buying up holiday homes there. edit: Was St Ives - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/yourview/1518711/Should-villages-ban-second-home-ownership.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grewks Posted 5 July 2016 Share Posted 5 July 2016 About 30%, as it happens. 17 mill out of 60 mill (roughly). But yes, it's unfair to tar all Leave voters with that brush. The ones that voted leave just because they want to see Jonny Foreigner shown the door are a minority, but a rather vocal one. It isn't very vocal at all. But the BBC's bias over the whole referendum saga has been a disgrace. The argument that people voted leave because they're racist, is as plausible as those who voted remain because they're into polish birds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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