Buce Posted 8 July 2016 Share Posted 8 July 2016 It's surreal seeing Webbo and Moose on opposite sides of the argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 8 July 2016 Share Posted 8 July 2016 Seriously? OK. A criminal trial offers two sides an opportunity to present a case to a group of ordinary people. Those people then arrive at a decision based on the cases they've been presented. The referendum offered two sides an opportunity to present a case to a group of ordinary people. Those people then arrived at a decision based on the cases they were presented. If, later, it turns out that the case presented by either side in the criminal trial was incomplete, and that new evidence is avaliable, everybody agrees that the decision should be revisited. Now, after the referendum, if it turns out that the case presented by either side was incomplete, or that new evidence is available, why do we no longer agree that the decision should be revisited? What do we know now, that we didn't know before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 8 July 2016 Share Posted 8 July 2016 It's surreal seeing Webbo and Moose on opposite sides of the argument. The irony isn't lost on me either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 8 July 2016 Share Posted 8 July 2016 It's surreal seeing Webbo and Moose on opposite sides of the argument. Who do you want to win though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgy Bob Posted 8 July 2016 Share Posted 8 July 2016 I'm sure you've given this a lot of thought and you've convinced yourself you've got a killer argument but it's just a silly comparison. I'd drop it if I was you because no one cares. Again with the trying to get people to quieten down thing? You used to be reasonable. All this passive censorship is unbecoming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 8 July 2016 Share Posted 8 July 2016 You used to be reasonable.Oh yeah, how long ago was this reasonable behaviour from Webbo? MOOSEBREATH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr The Singh Posted 8 July 2016 Share Posted 8 July 2016 The irony isn't lost on me either I thought it was foreplay???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 8 July 2016 Share Posted 8 July 2016 Again with the trying to get people to quieten down thing? You used to be reasonable. All this passive censorship is unbecoming. That's the moose we used to know and love Lets move on old chum. I thought it was foreplay???? Jealous? Much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 8 July 2016 Share Posted 8 July 2016 Who do you want to win though? Actually, I'm with Moose on the Brexit issue. I can't believe I've just typed that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 8 July 2016 Share Posted 8 July 2016 Actually, I'm with Moose on the Brexit issue. I can't believe I've just typed that. You think we should have a second referendum? Or ignore the result? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr The Singh Posted 8 July 2016 Share Posted 8 July 2016 That's the moose we used to know and love Lets move on old chum. Jealous? Much? Very much!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 8 July 2016 Share Posted 8 July 2016 You think we should have a second referendum? Or ignore the result? I think there should be a period of reflection, after which a second referendum should take place. I honestly believe that a bad decision has been made and that it was made by an uninformed electorate. People sometimes need protecting from themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thracian Posted 8 July 2016 Share Posted 8 July 2016 What did I say about the EU being a house of cards! http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/684282/Germany-Eu-referendum-Dexit-Brexit-Angela-Merkel-european-union?utm_source=outbrain&utm_medium=recommendations&utm_term=paid&utm_content=dx-news-showbiz&utm_campaign=2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 8 July 2016 Share Posted 8 July 2016 I think there should be a period of reflection, after which a second referendum should take place. I honestly believe that a bad decision has been made and that it was made by an uninformed electorate. People sometimes need protecting from themselves. What if we still voted leave, would you accept it then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thracian Posted 8 July 2016 Share Posted 8 July 2016 And just after I mentioned the financial crisis looming in Italy: http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/684213/Italy-I-financial-crisis-Euro-EU-European-Union-Brexit?_ga=1.54499752.10180195.1461586877 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgy Bob Posted 8 July 2016 Share Posted 8 July 2016 What do we know now, that we didn't know before?The new evidence would include all the economic consequences including the large crash in the value of the pound, the lowering of the UK's credit rating, the closure of various property investment funds, the crash in the construction industry and so on. It would also include what we now know about the likelihood of being able to maintain access to the free market without freedom of movement, and it would include more realistic conversations about how many hospitals we can build with the money we will save on EU membership. Plus people would have a much better general idea of the type of person Gove is and whether or not he can be trusted. Overall if we were making the decision now we'd be much better informed, and for me that's all that matters. Democracy isn't about rushing to a decision quickly and sticking to it, it's about making the most well informed decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 8 July 2016 Share Posted 8 July 2016 What if we still voted leave, would you accept it then? No. It something is wrong it doesn't become right just because it has popular support. History is littered with examples of bad ideas that were popular at the time. This is one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thracian Posted 8 July 2016 Share Posted 8 July 2016 What if we still voted leave, would you accept it then? I shouldn't worry - the way things are going the EU will implode quicker than I imagined and the whole new Europe, working along the lines I've imagined will emerge, a world in which concerns which have been disgracefully ignored will be listened to and acted upon. Hopefully the federal dream will be abandoned and replaced with some kind of co-operative alliance of independent allies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 8 July 2016 Share Posted 8 July 2016 No. It something is wrong it doesn't become right just because it has popular support. History is littered with examples of bad ideas that were popular at the time. This is one of them. How do you know your not wrong, what makes you so convinced now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 8 July 2016 Share Posted 8 July 2016 The new evidence would include all the economic consequences including the large crash in the value of the pound, the lowering of the UK's credit rating, the closure of various property investment funds, the crash in the construction industry and so on. It would also include what we now know about the likelihood of being able to maintain access to the free market without freedom of movement, and it would include more realistic conversations about how many hospitals we can build with the money we will save on EU membership. Plus people would have a much better general idea of the type of person Gove is and whether or not he can be trusted. Overall if we were making the decision now we'd be much better informed, and for me that's all that matters. Democracy isn't about rushing to a decision quickly and sticking to it, it's about making the most well informed decision. So nothing new then at all, your just rehashing the same drivel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 8 July 2016 Share Posted 8 July 2016 How do you know your not wrong, what makes you so convinced now? I took a long time to reach a decision (as you know) but having taken the time and effort to digest all the arguments, I believe I made the right one. I don't want to get into the whole 'thick racist' type of discussions that followed the vote, but I do believe that a significant number of voters cast their votes blindly in the mistaken belief that immigration would stop, or even be reversed. They voted on a misconception of spin peddled by professional liars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thracian Posted 8 July 2016 Share Posted 8 July 2016 No. It something is wrong it doesn't become right just because it has popular support. History is littered with examples of bad ideas that were popular at the time. This is one of them. If you really believe the way the EU is run is the way to run anything, I think you're mistaken. And in my view it's all but over in today's form anyway. With Germany, Denmark, Sweden and The Netherlands all rumbling ever more loudly about their own referendums, the fracture lines are already showing and, in the end, there will need to be a substantial rethink of the European dream if it's to have any chance of survival. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thracian Posted 8 July 2016 Share Posted 8 July 2016 I took a long time to reach a decision (as you know) but having taken the time and effort to digest all the arguments, I believe I made the right one. I don't want to get into the whole 'thick racist' type of discussions that followed the vote, but I do believe that a significant number of voters cast their votes blindly in the mistaken belief that immigration would stop, or even be reversed. They voted on a misconception of spin peddled by professional liars. A few totally uninformed idiots might have believed that but I've never met one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 8 July 2016 Share Posted 8 July 2016 I took a long time to reach a decision (as you know) but having taken the time and effort to digest all the arguments, I believe I made the right one. I don't want to get into the whole 'thick racist' type of discussions that followed the vote, but I do believe that a significant number of voters cast their votes blindly in the mistaken belief that immigration would stop, or even be reversed. They voted on a misconception of spin peddled by professional liars. Do you think that these people, would return a remain vote in a second referendum? I don't. There are some pretty unpleasant people on both sides of the argument and many uninformed on both, I think the immigration thing has been blown way out of proportion and I would have preferred if it was more of a side note of the campaigning. I think you took a long time to reach the decision because you could see the unfairness that the EU brings, the poverty and unemployment. The reason you think remain is better, is because you think it's the lesser of two evils regarding current British politics and I can totally understand and empathise. It's just for me current British politics is closer to my ideal than yours, so the EU leaving is a no brainer. I don't think we can just keep having referendums until we get the answer we want and nor can we ignore the result. The best thing we can do, is attempt to get a deal that both parties will accept. We can't just ignore 52% and we would be stupid to ignore 48%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl the Llama Posted 8 July 2016 Share Posted 8 July 2016 A few totally uninformed idiots might have believed that but I've never met one. Lucky you, I lost count of the number of times I had to explain the immigration red herring to people. Generally the response was that I didn't know what I was talking about because "have you ever been to [name of random area with an above average immigrant population] ?" which apparently proved that immigration was rampantly out of control to the detriment of the economy and leaving the EU was the solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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