Brexit Discussion Thread.

[MC Prussian]

What did I say about the EU being a house of cards! 

 

  http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/684282/Germany-Eu-referendum-Dexit-Brexit-Angela-Merkel-european-union?utm_source=outbrain&utm_medium=recommendations&utm_term=paid&utm_content=dx-news-showbiz&utm_campaign=2016

 

Germany has made bad experiences with plebiscites in the past, and the rise and standing of the AfD at present makes for a dangerous mixture, as extremists on the (far) right could seize power and then we'd have political conditions similar to 1932/33.

 

Although I've heard many Germans expressing great interest in a more direct way of democracy. They're fed up with the way things are run in Berlin.

[Realist Guy In The Room]

Lucky you, I lost count of the number of times I had to explain the immigration red herring to people. Generally the response was that I didn't know what I was talking about because "have you ever been to [name of random area with an above average immigrant population] ?" which apparently proved that immigration was rampantly out of control to the detriment of the economy and leaving the EU was the solution.

You've basically summed up why the leave vote won in that post.

Anyone who lives in one of those areas and had those feelings were not engaged with, not addressed and not acknowledged as having any justified grievance with the free movement of people.

They were just told they were wrong.

[Carl the Llama]

You've basically summed up why the leave vote won in that post.

Anyone who lives in one of those areas and had those feelings were not engaged with, not addressed and not acknowledged as having any justified grievance with the free movement of people.

They were just told they were wrong.

The specific people I'm talking about were engaged in a conversation where their concerns were addressed and where they had it explained to them how their grievance at the free movement of people is ill-founded and why they were actually wrong to hold these views. (Key point here: All of the complaints I personally heard were against either foreign NHS nurses or construction industry workers ie. the sustenance of the organisation these same people claimed to want to save, complaints made by people with no medical training  - not exactly a case of stolen jobs - or else the presence of skilled labourers with talents we're already well aware not enough young Brits are learning to sustain the industry).

 

I can't help it if these specific people still voted to leave having decided that I was misinformed instead of them, but you may have a point in general about the structure of the leave vote - I too believe it was swung by ill-informed low-income individuals who didn't understand why they were wrong because they didn't have the benefit of somebody taking the time to tell them to ignore the bullshit from both sets of politicians and give them the real facts of the situation.  Incidentally I've just this month moved into a house-share with some Filipino nurses so I can attest from personal experience that these foreigners taking up our houses are hard-working people who contribute to the economy and now feel concern at the direction this country is going and are going to see what happens to the economy before deciding if they should take their skills elsewhere where the conversion rate isn't getting steadily worse.  In other words it's only if the remain camp turn out to be right about the economy that those who swung it for the leave camp will get their wish for less foreigners in the NHS.  I'd laugh if the thought didn't make me want to cry.

 

Edit:  Actually I retract the bit about low-earners, that's not fair at all:  Not all the people I'm referencing were particularly low down on the income scale, one of them in particular is even a wealthy inheritor who as far as I know hasn't ever held a real job outside of his father's estate while another is a sweet middle-aged couple where the main-earner just a year from retiring to claim his pension while they continue to sustain their 27 year-old son who also voted leave and seems to have no desire to ever leave home.  Indeed the only remainers I personally know are in a similar financial situation to myself and I'm still working to learn skills that will hopefully get me off the bottom rung hence the house-share.  What makes me mad is that I work hard for a relative pittance and have never claimed any benefits from the state (unless you count an ill-advised student loan which I'm paying off slowly through work) meanwhile my - admittedly low - tax contributions go towards supporting lazy work-shy Brits.

[Thracian]

The specific people I'm talking about were engaged in a conversation where their concerns were addressed and where they had it explained to them how their grievance at the free movement of people is ill-founded and why they were actually wrong to hold these views. (Key point here: All of the complaints I personally heard were against either foreign NHS nurses or construction industry workers ie. the sustenance of the organisation these same people claimed to want to save, complaints made by people with no medical training  - not exactly a case of stolen jobs - or else the presence of skilled labourers with talents we're already well aware not enough young Brits are learning to sustain the industry).

 

I can't help it if these specific people still voted to leave having decided that I was misinformed instead of them, but you may have a point in general about the structure of the leave vote - I too believe it was swung by ill-informed low-income individuals who didn't understand why they were wrong because they didn't have the benefit of somebody taking the time to tell them to ignore the bullshit from both sets of politicians and give them the real facts of the situation.  Incidentally I've just this month moved into a house-share with some Filipino nurses so I can attest from personal experience that these foreigners taking up our houses are hard-working people who contribute to the economy and now feel concern at the direction this country is going and are going to see what happens to the economy before deciding if they should take their skills elsewhere where the conversion rate isn't getting steadily worse.  In other words it's only if the remain camp turn out to be right about the economy that those who swung it for the leave camp will get their wish for less foreigners in the NHS.  I'd laugh if the thought didn't make me want to cry.

 

Edit:  Actually I retract the bit about low-earners, that's not fair at all:  Not all the people I'm referencing were particularly low down on the income scale, one of them in particular is even a wealthy inheritor who as far as I know hasn't ever held a real job outside of his father's estate while another is a sweet middle-aged couple where the main-earner just a year from retiring to claim his pension while they continue to sustain their 27 year-old son who also voted leave and seems to have no desire to ever leave home.  Indeed the only remainers I personally know are in a similar financial situation to myself and I'm still working to learn skills that will hopefully get me off the bottom rung hence the house-share.  What makes me mad is that I work hard for a relative pittance and have never claimed any benefits from the state (unless you count an ill-advised student loan which I'm paying off slowly through work) meanwhile my - admittedly low - tax contributions go towards supporting lazy work-shy Brits.

 

Would that what you say was the whole story but, sadly, it's not - and by a long way.

 

As for the disparaging remark about work-shy Brits I sympathise but having got one son who works a well-paid 80-hour week during the summer and still can't find a house he can afford among all the letting overcrowds. I can promise you he paints a very different picture from his base in Slough.

 

Even the "hard-working foreigner" comment is misleading and as random a generalisation as your views on "work-shy Brits" for all that he works with a group of incomers himself and speaks as highly of them as you do.     

 

The very fact that we're even having this debate shows the incredible impact of free movement and your seeming inability to recognise all the many problems it has caused as well as seemingly solved in other ways although I think its one of the heroic foreigners you mention who is stirring much of the disatisfaction among the junior doctors and inciting them to further strike action.

 

He may have a point. I'm certainly sure he'd say so. But it hardly helps the job get done. And besides all of that the debate is not all about economics - it's a lot deeper than that and extremely divisive.      .      

[Guest]

You're seriously comparing a trial to an election?

 

People who get engaged don't have to go ahead with it either and they have the chance of divorce after the fact as back up.

[Guest]

It's surreal seeing Webbo and Moose on opposite sides of the argument.

 

I love it.

 

The new moose is my type of guy. I think he's ditched the kinky leather and handed hi notice in from McD.

 

What do you call a mature, grown-up moose?

[Strokes]

I love it.

 

The new moose is my type of guy. I think he's ditched the kinky leather and handed hi notice in from McD.

 

What do you call a mature, grown-up moose?

Fif?

[Guest]

Fif?

 

You keep banging the wrong drum.

 

I couldn't be bothered to do the research he used to do to try to prove something right that was clearly wrong.

 

Plus I spend too much time on here as it is without having a second account.

 

btw it's FIF. France has a capital "F" and I'd prefer you used it. 

[Strokes]

You keep banging the wrong drum.

 

I couldn't be bothered to do the research he used to do to try to prove something right that was clearly wrong.

 

Plus I spend too much time on here as it is without having a second account.

 

btw it's FIF. France has a capital "F" and I'd prefer you used it. 

I'm not saying you are the same person, just similar people.

[Guest]

I'm not saying you are the same person, just similar people.

 

Is that like you and MattP? 

[Strokes]

Is that like you and MattP? 

Could be, it's not for me to say but I'd be quite pleased to be compared to Matt. He is one of the good uns on here.

[Guest MattP]

Could be, it's not for me to say but I'd be quite pleased to be compared to Matt. He is one of the good uns on here.

 

Cheers mate, tap me up for a pint if you see me about.

[Strokes]

Cheers mate, tap me up for a pint if you see me about.

[Guest]

Could be, it's not for me to say but I'd be quite pleased to be compared to Matt. He is one of the good uns on here.

 

I think you're one of the good uns too. 

 

It wasn't a put down, just pointing out that because someone agrees with a pov it doesn't make them similar people.

[Strokes]

I think you're one of the good uns too. 

 

It wasn't a put down, just pointing out that because someone agrees with a pov it doesn't make them similar people.

As we are all best buds again, perhaps I should leave this one alone and stop provoking silly arguments.

What is it you like about Leadsome FIF?

[Dr The Singh]

As we are all best buds again, perhaps I should leave this one alone and stop provoking silly arguments.

What is it you like about Leadsome FIF?

Great ass???

[Guest]

As we are all best buds again, perhaps I should leave this one alone and stop provoking silly arguments.

What is it you like about Leadsome FIF?

 

I've only seen her in 2 interviews but I liked the inclusive approach (from a social pov) that she put forward. It was pleasant to hear a tory talk about helping demographics they don't usually help. I didn't like that May sat back when she was purportedly in the remain camp - it was as though she was playing the game and is now using that for the leadership race - it made me think of Corbyn's half hearted effort. I don't think a remain  candidate should lead the country during this period. It should be a brexit candidate to give the country what they want.

[Guest]

Great ass???

 

I haven't seen.

 

There are enough asses in politics already.

[Dr The Singh]

I haven't seen.

There are enough asses in politics already.

So true, I despair with politics these days, it's so important to have a good leader but I'm struggling with thinking who that could be

[Rincewind]

I dread to think what would happen if aliens landed and said to someone 'Take me to your leader' They would not stop long.

[Dr The Singh]

I dread to think what would happen if a liens landed and said to someone 'Take me to your leader' They would not stop long.

I think that's the least of our worries

[Guest]

I dread to think what would happen if a liens landed and said to someone 'Take me to your leader' They would not stop long.

 

It took me an unreasonable amount of time to work out this was ET and not a link.

[Guest MattP]

Not really news but as some were clinging onto it, the government has formally rejected the second referendum petition.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/09/government-dashes-hopes-of-second-eu-referendum-in-e-petition-response

[Dr The Singh]

Not really news but as some were clinging onto it, the government has formally rejected the second referendum petition.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/09/government-dashes-hopes-of-second-eu-referendum-in-e-petition-response

That is the right decision

Not really news but as some were clinging onto it, the government has formally rejected the second referendum petition.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/09/government-dashes-hopes-of-second-eu-referendum-in-e-petition-response

That is the right decision

[Alf Bentley]

Not really news but as some were clinging onto it, the government has formally rejected the second referendum petition.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/09/government-dashes-hopes-of-second-eu-referendum-in-e-petition-response

 

 

 

Unsurprising. How could a national referendum be overturned by an online petition?!? There's an "online petition culture" and it's largely bollocks - strengthening democracy should be the aim instead.

 

There would have been some validity to these arguments about a second referendum or a 60% threshold if they'd been made successfully before the campaign started. You can't move the goalposts after the match has been played!

 

The only one of those arguments with a modicum of validity is the one saying that the referendum was advisory and that our sovereign parliament is entitled to vote it down. Even then, I don't think that would be right - and don't think it'll happen.

If there was a chance of parliament doing that, that should have been made clear beforehand. Rightly or wrongly, people assumed that the referendum was binding and were never disabused of that assumption. Anyway, it would require Tory MPs to vote it down and I can't see that happening.

 

Much as I don't like the result, it has to be respected now - and Remainers should concentrate on getting the best possible post-Brexit deal: probably in EEA/EFTA & single market, with freedom of movement but seeking to counteract insecurity in struggling areas by encouraging investment & jobs, improving public services (esp. in areas with high immigration) & prioritising extra funds and action on integration in such areas.