Brexit Discussion Thread.

[foxoffderby]

Going back to Brexit, this was another reason for me to vote out. People want us to stay by scaring us on myths about climate change I simply don't believe

[leicsmac]

Well this thread has gone off topic hasn't it

Yeah, I only wanted to highlight the contempt the UK political community has for STEM in general. Ah well.

[leicsmac]

The planet is a lot cooler now than is was many millions of years ago before man decided to industrialise the planet. 99% of this and 97% of that mean nothing to me. Science is very strange and nobody knows for sure.

So you advocate doing nothing and letting the dice fall where they may?

Driven, no doubt, by the unshakable faith that the Earth is ours. If you think we can deal with the abrupt changes ahead as they happen, then fair enough.

[foxoffderby]

A recent study in the New Scientist magazine revealed we are overdue an Ice age the last one ended about 12000 years ago. These are the same scientists who say the planet is getting warmer.

[leicsmac]

Going back to Brexit, this was another reason for me to vote out. People want us to stay by scaring us on myths about climate change I simply don't believe

Can you elaborate on how you think those two things are linked?

I mean, most scientists tend to be internationalist in outlook, but I don't see direct correlation between the two.

[foxoffderby]

So you advocate doing nothing and letting the dice fall where they may?

Driven, no doubt, by the unshakable faith that the Earth is ours. If you think we can deal with the abrupt changes ahead as they happen, then fair enough.

 

Nope not saying we should do nothing, however its a global game and countries like India and China need to do more. We in England and in the rest of Europe are not the worst offenders.

[leicsmac]

A recent study in the New Scientist magazine revealed we are overdue an Ice age the last one ended about 12000 years ago. These are the same scientists who say the planet is getting warmer.

Those two things are not paradoxical. Warm water that leads to excessive glacial melting could shut down the Gulf Stream, resulting in a northern hemisphere ice age. Over a much larger timescale than in The Day After Tomorrow, though.

Yes, there's a great deal of uncertainty about such things, and we don't have enough data to make accurate predictions about the future. But pretending everything is going to be the same climate wise for the long term future is not a sensible survival strategy.

[foxoffderby]

Can you elaborate on how you think those two things are linked?

I mean, most scientists tend to be intentionalist in outlook, but I don't see direct correlation between the two.

 

I've been to Asia many times and the pollution is beyond a joke in many countries. Scarring people into voting remain when the worst offenders are outside of the EU. America is another problem where they fail to sign many treaty on pollution.

[foxoffderby]

Those two things are not paradoxical. Warm water that leads to excessive glacial melting could shut down the Gulf Stream, resulting in a northern hemisphere ice age. Over a much larger timescale than in The Day After Tomorrow, though.

Yes, there's a great deal of uncertainty about such things, and we don't have enough data to make accurate predictions about the future. But pretending everything is going to be the same climate wise for the long term future is not a sensible survival strategy.

 

Like I said earlier the Ice in Antarctica is actually increasing which would signify a temperature drop. I'm not a scientist but nobody can explain why.

[leicsmac]

Nope not saying we should do nothing, however its a global game and countries like India and China need to do more. We in England and in the rest of Europe are not the worst offenders.

That I agree with. But as long as there is petty disagreements and realpolitik meaning nations trying to one up each other, I'm not sure it's possible to coordinate such a response. Why look to plan for the future of the planet when your country's economy and being better than other nations has to come first, eh?

[Carl the Llama]

Makes me laugh to see people with no scientific background telling us what the scientific facts are without providing scientific facts.  Very reminiscent of the whole Brexit approach to debating the EU with the utter misinformation being clung onto.  From what I can find, the last time somebody tried to work out the consensus they determined that 97% of scientific papers on the topic agree that climate change is real and that mankind has a significant detrimental effect on the process.  Now that's a fvcking majority right there.  I know it sounds scary but that's no reason to cuddle up to reassuring bullshit.

[leicsmac]

Like I said earlier the Ice in Antarctica is actually increasing which would signify a temperature drop. I'm not a scientist but nobody can explain why.

Could just be a temporary blip, could be part of the natural cycle. Like I said, there's a lot of uncertainty, and as Jon said on the last page it isn't scientists who deal in certainties...its the vested interests that want to push their own agenda who try to make it an open and shut case.

Trying to get back on topic, we should be liking for increased scientific collaboration on various projects, whether it be space, energy or climate research. I wonder whether Brexit will affect this in a negative fashion?

[foxoffderby]

Makes me laugh to see people with no scientific background telling us what the scientific facts are without providing scientific facts.  Very reminiscent of the whole Brexit approach to debating the EU with the utter misinformation being clung onto.  From what I can find, the last time somebody tried to work out the consensus they determined that 97% of scientific papers on the topic agree that climate change is real and that mankind has a significant detrimental effect on the process.  Now that's a fvcking majority right there.  I know it sounds scary but that's no reason to cuddle up to reassuring bullshit.

 

It makes me laugh when people believe everything they hear is true.(because politicians have never lied to the public before) I listen to all the facts on both sides and then use my own brain to make a choice.

 

A bit like Remain and its Scare policy

[Christoph]

Those two things are not paradoxical. Warm water that leads to excessive glacial melting could shut down the Gulf Stream, resulting in a northern hemisphere ice age. Over a much larger timescale than in The Day After Tomorrow, though.

Yes, there's a great deal of uncertainty about such things, and we don't have enough data to make accurate predictions about the future. But pretending everything is going to be the same climate wise for the long term future is not a sensible survival strategy.

 

This. Use clean energy and if its a waste of time so what? We've spent a little bit more money. Or try not to solve the problem and just see what happens. Doesn't seem the best idea. 

 

Better safe than sorry in my eyes. Not like clean energy and a greater importance on the environment is a terrible thing for our planet. 

[leicsmac]

It makes me laugh when people believe everything they hear is true.(because politicians have never lied to the public before) I listen to all the facts on both sides and then use my own brain to make a choice.

This is the point though. Scientists in the vast majority of areas (unless they're the Judas's funded by vested interests who only want one result) have no reason to lie. Science is apolitical in its findings. It's how they're interpreted by other parties which is where the ridiculous politics comes in.

[The Doctor]

Yeah, I only wanted to highlight the contempt the UK political community has for STEM in general. Ah well.

And if you want to bring it back on topic then brexit is causing all sorts of problems for British researchers and academics: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

http://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/jul/12/uk-scientists-dropped-from-eu-projects-because-of-post-brexit-funding-fears

[foxoffderby]

I think what im trying to say is unless Asia Africa and the US sign up to the same standards as Europe its thankless task. These countries have at the moment no desire to sign up to anything and they are the worst offenders. We in the UK will still have our high standards on pollution etc but its not a game changer as far as global warming is concerned. So frightening people into saying that if we vote out that will change the planet was wrong.

[Webbo]

The thing is, we've heard it all before. When global warming first came into the public consciousness in the early 90s we were told that half the country would be under water by now. When a house on a cliff tumbles into the sea we're told it's climate change, but we've had coastal erosion as long as we've had coasts. B.S.E, aids we were all supposed to know someone suffering from them by now, I don't. Even something as trivial as diets, one day a carb free diet is dangerous for you the next day it's received wisdom, next week there'll be something different.

 

Nobody believes this crap anymore. 

[Carl the Llama]

It makes me laugh when people believe everything they hear is true.(because politicians have never lied to the public before) I listen to all the facts on both sides and then use my own brain to make a choice.

 

A bit like Remain and its Scare policy

Then you clearly missed a lot of the facts on the remain side.  I'm not going to ask which facts your brain listened to on the leave side because I can tell from your approach to these 2 topics that it will be depressingly familiar to all the other poor arguments for leaving that we've all heard and debunked so many times already.  Controlling our borders and regaining political accountability are 2 of my top predictions.

[Guest MattP]

Then you clearly missed a lot of the facts on the remain side.  I'm not going to ask which facts your brain listened to on the leave side because I can tell from your approach to these 2 topics that it will be depressingly familiar to all the other poor arguments for leaving that we've all heard and debunked so many times already.  Controlling our borders and regaining political accountability are 2 of my top predictions.

 

I'm just glad the leavers won the intellectual debate over the course of time, I always suspected we would, winning the moral one afterwards with the whining and complaining was just a bonus.

[Carl the Llama]

I'm just glad the leavers won the intellectual debate over the course of time, I always suspected we would, winning the moral one afterwards with the whining and complaining was just a bonus.

Guessing you're also pleased to have control of our already controlled borders and the ability to hold our already accountable politicians (or as accountable as our own British system allows anyway) to account?

[Guest MattP]

Guessing you're also pleased to have control of our already controlled borders and the ability to hold our already accountable politicians to account?

 

That was actually a little wind up from the pre referendum banter if you don't remember?

 

I'll be delighted when I see it happen, long way to go yet though and I'm not foolish enough to just trust these people to implement, the early signs are good but this is politics.

[leicsmac]

The thing is, we've heard it all before. When global warming first came into the public consciousness in the early 90s we were told that half the country would be under water by now. When a house on a cliff tumbles into the sea we're told it's climate change, but we've had coastal erosion as long as we've had coasts. B.S.E, aids we were all supposed to know someone suffering from them by now, I don't. Even something as trivial as diets, one day a carb free diet is dangerous for you the next day it's received wisdom, next week there'll be something different.

 

Nobody believes this crap anymore. 

 

I say again - all sensationalised by vested interests, projecting the appearance of certainty when the scientists involved continue to insist there is no such thing - merely a probability and the truth tends to get buried in all the squawking. Which is a shame, because everyone knows the ending to the Boy Who Cried Wolf.

 

And...

 

 

And if you want to bring it back on topic then brexit is causing all sorts of problems for British researchers and academics: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

http://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/jul/12/uk-scientists-dropped-from-eu-projects-because-of-post-brexit-funding-fears

 

I feared this might happen. Any Brexiters want to give me some good news regarding this particular topic?

[Carl the Llama]

I say again - all sensationalised by vested interests, projecting the appearance of certainty when the scientists involved continue to insist there is no such thing - merely a probability and the truth tends to get buried in all the squawking. Which is a shame, because everyone knows the ending to the Boy Who Cried Wolf.

 

And...

 

 

 

I feared this might happen. Any Brexiters want to give me some good news regarding this particular topic?

We have an extra £250m a week to spend on our own British research projects.

[foxoffderby]

Then you clearly missed a lot of the facts on the remain side.  I'm not going to ask which facts your brain listened to on the leave side because I can tell from your approach to these 2 topics that it will be depressingly familiar to all the other poor arguments for leaving that we've all heard and debunked so many times already.  Controlling our borders and regaining political accountability are 2 of my top predictions.

 

So wrong. Nothing to do with boarders or accountability. I can't be bothered to get into a debate with somebody who has already judged me. I am a third generation of immigrant origin and non white. I also hold a degree and don't fit your profile of the average working class joe. I voted Brexit and stand by my views.