leicsmac Posted 12 July 2016 Share Posted 12 July 2016 If the EU is that spiteful perhaps it's better that we're leaving. Sorry, perhaps I was not clear there. What I meant is that there is dedicated funding for UK scientists on EU collaborative scientific projects, funded by part of the contribution we make to the EU. With the UK coming out, we no longer make contributions, so that funding is no longer there, with no guarantee, and indeed the extreme probability given the UK's attitude towards STEM funding in the past, that the UK will put it to a different use than those projects, leaving those UK STEMheads up the proverbial creek without a paddle. I think this isn't really a good thing. But perhaps some of the other benefits of exiting the EU outweigh it, in the opinion of others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 12 July 2016 Share Posted 12 July 2016 It depends on what type of Brexit we get, if it's EEA we'll still put money into the pot. I believe Swiss and Norwegian scientists still get funding. If not we'll still put money into science. You'd hope that intelligent, evidence based scientists would fund the best projects rather than just fund projects because of narrow nationalism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 12 July 2016 Share Posted 12 July 2016 It depends on what type of Brexit we get, if it's EEA we'll still put money into the pot. I believe Swiss and Norwegian scientists still get funding. If not we'll still put money into science. You'd hope that intelligent, evidence based scientists would fund the best projects rather than just fund projects because of narrow nationalism. I have my doubts. Serious ones. But here's hoping that you're right and official words are spoken to that effect soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grewks Posted 12 July 2016 Share Posted 12 July 2016 Then it would be nice to see reassurances regarding no.2 occurring in the form of an agreement regarding collaboration between UK and EU scientists on all existing projects. Are we going to see that anytime soon? How do you know that we want to continue collaboration on existing projects? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 12 July 2016 Share Posted 12 July 2016 How do you know that we want to continue collaboration on existing projects? I hope we do. So do the UK scientists working on those projects. So should anyone who wants a UK presence in various areas of large scale cutting edge scientific research. As I said above, we can't do these kind of vital projects entirely under our own steam, nor do others that would have similar scale and significance. And as also said above, given the UK attitude towards STEM at large I have zero faith that the UK would approve such projects even if we had the resources to do them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grewks Posted 12 July 2016 Share Posted 12 July 2016 The greatest irony of the debate since the result? The remain sides argument, since defeat, has turned 180 degrees. They're now the ones saying 'We can't do this, we can't do that'. Despite finally seeing a future return to democracy being inevitable. The truth is, we may succeed, we may fail. But the measure of our success will be a result of our own decisions, failing to succeed will not be a result of leaving the E.U. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 12 July 2016 Share Posted 12 July 2016 Siemens are an absolute disgrace, now no change to business plan after all those hints about leaving the country of Brexit was voted for. These people are an affront to democracy, so glad we saw through it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 12 July 2016 Share Posted 12 July 2016 It depends on what type of Brexit we get, if it's EEA we'll still put money into the pot. I believe Swiss and Norwegian scientists still get funding. If not we'll still put money into science. You'd hope that intelligent, evidence based scientists would fund the best projects rather than just fund projects because of narrow nationalism. What happens in negotiations between Switzerland and the EU will be interesting. For 2 years they've been negotiating trying to get single market access AND research collaboration AND no free movement. Reaching a critical stage now.... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/03/eu-swiss-single-market-access-no-free-movement-citizens "The EU is to show its determination to make no concessions to the UK on Brexit terms by telling Switzerland it will lose access to the single market if it goes ahead with plans to impose controls on the free movement of EU citizens. The Swiss-EU talks, under way for two years but now needing a solution possibly within weeks, throws up the exact same issues that will be raised in the UK’s exit talks – the degree to which the UK must accept free movement of the EU’s citizens as a price for access to the single market. The Swiss are desperate to strike a deal in order to give its politicians time to pass the necessary laws to meet a February 2017 deadline imposed by a legally binding referendum in 2014. [...] The EU has previously shown its negotiating muscle by freezing research grants for Swiss universities worth hundreds of millions of euros and suspending the involvement of the Swiss in the Erasmus student exchange programme. The EU acted after the Swiss refused to sign a free labour market access deal signed by the EU in Croatia". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 12 July 2016 Share Posted 12 July 2016 Be interesting in the future. A bloc of the UK, Norway and Switzerland, 3 of the richest countries in Europe, will have a lot of weight to throw about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thracian Posted 12 July 2016 Share Posted 12 July 2016 Seems to me as if the EU is constantly seeking to blackmail one nation or another into doing exactly as it dictates and the sooner the whole house of cards implodes or heads off in its own direction the better. The UK will continue to invest in scientific projects because they are vital but there's absolutely no reason they shouldn't involve themselves in joint projects with all sorts of nations/companies/organisations, anywhere across the world. Of course there will be concerns and uncertainties but there will also be answers. Not everyone will be as negative as the "vested interests" will try to make out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 13 July 2016 Share Posted 13 July 2016 Seems to me as if the EU is constantly seeking to blackmail one nation or another into doing exactly as it dictates and the sooner the whole house of cards implodes or heads off in its own direction the better. The UK will continue to invest in scientific projects because they are vital but there's absolutely no reason they shouldn't involve themselves in joint projects with all sorts of nations/companies/organisations, anywhere across the world. Of course there will be concerns and uncertainties but there will also be answers. Not everyone will be as negative as the "vested interests" will try to make out. Past evidence suggests otherwise. This is the point I've been making all along - the UK's attitude towards STEM precludes the kind of investment that would make for a truly significant project. The UK STEM community is getting frozen out of potential collaborative projects already, and there seems to be nothing the UK is proposing to replace them - not that we have the money to do so by ourselves anyway. I know I'm banging a drum here but this issue is vital, and it's simply not seen as such by a large part of the UK, which is a mistake. There needs to be some kind of agreement made regarding such project collaboration - and fast. Unless we're happy with the idea of an even bigger 'brain drain' than what's happening already, though I expect a fair few people would be just fine with losing the 'nerds'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thracian Posted 13 July 2016 Share Posted 13 July 2016 Past evidence suggests otherwise. This is the point I've been making all along - the UK's attitude towards STEM precludes the kind of investment that would make for a truly significant project. The UK STEM community is getting frozen out of potential collaborative projects already, and there seems to be nothing the UK is proposing to replace them - not that we have the money to do so by ourselves anyway. I know I'm banging a drum here but this issue is vital, and it's simply not seen as such by a large part of the UK, which is a mistake. There needs to be some kind of agreement made regarding such project collaboration - and fast. Unless we're happy with the idea of an even bigger 'brain drain' than what's happening already, though I expect a fair few people would be just fine with losing the 'nerds'. Apart from the first sentence which I can't second guess, I agree with you entirely. I'm not a scientist but have read a great deal about the commitment of places like China to scientific research and it's of major importance that we're not left lagging behind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 13 July 2016 Share Posted 13 July 2016 CEO Airbus: "We are committed to UK. Brexit won't affect our relationship". Complete contrary to what George Osborne said in the BBC1 Referendum interviewwith Andrew Neil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl the Llama Posted 14 July 2016 Share Posted 14 July 2016 Every time Carl writes something this thread now, I can't help but imagine him pulling a face like Huth's in his av, thinking he's smug and just wrote something he thinks is hilarious Tbf you aren't far wrong. I'm trying to edge towards the laugh side of having to laugh or cry at the ramifications of the pathetically ill-informed decision the country just barely made. Still seeing posters coming out with guff like the controlling our borders argument is the height of dark humour though so I have stiff competition. I didn't appreciate him judge or stereotype me with what his stance on Brexit. My views and traits don't fit what the Remain camp think at all and that's why they failed. Well explained, I thoroughly understand your decision making process and am now convinced that it in no way hinged upon some falsehood or another. (Seriously, I'm perfectly open to that being the case but your lack of any expansion on why the 2 reasons I put forward are wrong by providing your own sound reasoning leads me to believe I wasn't too far off after all.) Sorry if I hurt your feelings, like I said above I'm finding this whole scenario too ridiculous to take particularly seriously anymore. It's just so transparent where the lies and truths were in the campaign if you really wanted to look into it but still we see people clinging to fairytales of the big bad EU like religious zealots worshipping at the alter of shooting oneself in the foot and I just can't. I can't even. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C-man Posted 14 July 2016 Share Posted 14 July 2016 CEO Airbus: "We are committed to UK. Brexit won't affect our relationship". Complete contrary to what George Osborne said in the BBC1 Referendum interviewwith Andrew Neil. Maybe it has twigged with a few business types that talking openly about uncertainty breeds more uncertainty? A self-fulfilling prophecy of doom. It doesn't mean Airbus or Siemens won't have to re-think their business plan in 2-3 years when everything works itself out. You're kidding yourself if you don't think they both have contingency plans post-Article 50, so no it's not an affront to democracy. Not even comparable to how some on the other side conducted themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brizzle Fox Posted 14 July 2016 Share Posted 14 July 2016 CEO Airbus: "We are committed to UK. Brexit won't affect our relationship". Complete contrary to what George Osborne said in the BBC1 Referendum interviewwith Andrew Neil. Maybe they don't want to be totally held to ransom by French labour laws. Random story but I was flying back from Toulouse once to Bristol on an Airbus A320 (basically the two main Westen European manufacturing locations for airbus). Plane was broken so they had to call an engineer out to fix. Was a Sunday though so they were not allowed to call out a French employee, so instead flew a guy out from Bristol. On his own. Delayed the flight by 10 hours. Crazy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trav Le Bleu Posted 14 July 2016 Share Posted 14 July 2016 Boris Johnson is new Foreign Secretary. Might as well have appointed Prince Phillip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted 14 July 2016 Share Posted 14 July 2016 Boris Johnson is new Foreign Secretary. Might as well have appointed Prince Phillip. A little harsh. It is a rather cut down role, but given that he was written off and accused of walking away from the Brexit "mess" two weeks ago, a fantastic outcome. If you don't like Brexit and think we will fail, then having Davis, Fox and Johnson at the forefront of negotiations must make you very happy indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thracian Posted 14 July 2016 Share Posted 14 July 2016 Boris Johnson is new Foreign Secretary. Might as well have appointed Prince Phillip. Good survivor Prince Phillip - and with a bit of his own personality shining through despite all the pressures of the PC brigade. Johnson's made his mistakes but at least he's made an impression and was well regarded as the London mayor - London having as foreign a population - resident or visiting - as he's likely to come across anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 14 July 2016 Share Posted 14 July 2016 Merkel could take a battering and Marine Le Pen could be in the President's chair Both scenarios probably benefit us. Le Pen will not be president. She is simply an "anger" vote for most people and the benefit of the French system is that the last 2 have a run off - then she is put in our place. And NO it wouldn't be good for Britain, France, Europe or the world. That's the most uninformed comment I've heard from you in a long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 14 July 2016 Share Posted 14 July 2016 Maybe they don't want to be totally held to ransom by French labour laws. Random story but I was flying back from Toulouse once to Bristol on an Airbus A320 (basically the two main Westen European manufacturing locations for airbus). Plane was broken so they had to call an engineer out to fix. Was a Sunday though so they were not allowed to call out a French employee, so instead flew a guy out from Bristol. On his own. Delayed the flight by 10 hours. Crazy Big changes in labour law now been put through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Doctor Posted 14 July 2016 Share Posted 14 July 2016 A little harsh. It is a rather cut down role, but given that he was written off and accused of walking away from the Brexit "mess" two weeks ago, a fantastic outcome. If you don't like Brexit and think we will fail, then having Davis, Fox and Johnson at the forefront of negotiations must make you very happy indeed. Not really - I still think brexit was utterly stupid and will end poorly, but we've gone for it so we need to make the best of it - and Boris as foreign Secretary is not that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trav Le Bleu Posted 14 July 2016 Share Posted 14 July 2016 A little harsh. It is a rather cut down role, but given that he was written off and accused of walking away from the Brexit "mess" two weeks ago, a fantastic outcome. If you don't like Brexit and think we will fail, then having Davis, Fox and Johnson at the forefront of negotiations must make you very happy indeed. I've never said I'm for either side of Brexit. What I do know is that BoJo is viewed as somewhat as a joke abroad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 14 July 2016 Share Posted 14 July 2016 Le Pen will not be president. She is simply an "anger" vote for most people and the benefit of the French system is that the last 2 have a run off - then she is put in our place. And NO it wouldn't be good for Britain, France, Europe or the world. That's the most uninformed comment I've heard from you in a long time. Given you said with certainty Miliband would be Prime Minister and there was no chance of the public voting for Brexit I now think it's probably likely Le Pen wins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 14 July 2016 Share Posted 14 July 2016 Good survivor Prince Phillip - and with a bit of his own personality shining through despite all the pressures of the PC brigade. You mean his racism by 'a bit of his own personality' then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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