Brexit Discussion Thread.

[Jon the Hat]

2 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

 

The FTSE falling or rising can mean something or absolutely nothing re. the prospects of the real economy.

 

If there's going to be a short/medium-term economic impact from Brexit, we'll start seeing it over the next 6 months, I'd guess - through figures on GDP growth, investment, unemployment etc.

 

I'd assume there will then be more effects (good or bad) a bit further down the line, once the likely and actual terms of Brexit become clearer.

 

Of course, it's quite possible that political/economic uncertainty could drag the real economy into slow growth or recession in 2016-17 and it could then recover if the terms of Brexit look good....or it could recover and do better over many years if we do good trade deals (a very big IF). Likewise, the outlook for the E27 is very uncertain with slow growth, unemployment, rising nationalism, terrorism, the need for EU reform etc. Could turn out well or very, very badly.

 

At the moment, I reckon I'd settle for a bit of a downturn over the next year, then a UK semi-recovery with slower-than-expected growth - and the EU doing likewise and reforming its stupid austerity-driven Eurozone/EMU set-up. It could end up better than that - but it could end up a hell of a lot worse (economic instability, recession and a Europe of nationalist states didn't end well in the 1930s...).

I quite agree.  Was more a comment that a little market uncertainty was some kind of life altering distaster for the people of the UK a month ago, and now there is barely a word about the fact that both the internationally focussed FTSE100 and more domestic 250 are above pre brexit.  Suggests to me the market is not very concerned, and the government are making the right noises publically and pricately, as are their EU counterparts.

[leicsmac]

9 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

 

I'm sure they do, there has been a lot of scaremongering, and of course lots of publicity for racists twats leaving stupid notes and saying stupid things.

Yeah, that's about right.

 

Put it this way though, given past performance right now I have zero faith in the UK government to support research on collaborative projects in the same way as the EU did pre-Brexit. And I think it's a crucial matter that many people are overlooking because they wrongly believe other aspects of the whole matter to be more important.

[Jon the Hat]

8 hours ago, leicsmac said:

Yeah, that's about right.

 

Put it this way though, given past performance right now I have zero faith in the UK government to support research on collaborative projects in the same way as the EU did pre-Brexit. And I think it's a crucial matter that many people are overlooking because they wrongly believe other aspects of the whole matter to be more important.

I agree it is very important, we need to invest in STEM more than ever.

[leicsmac]

11 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

I agree it is very important, we need to invest in STEM more than ever.

I wish that more Brexiters considered it as much a priority as you do. If they did then at least perhaps plans would have been in place to maintain collaboration on the various projects.

 

But right now it seems like it's not considered important, which is sadly a reflection, as I said, of general governmental attitude (both Labour and Conservative) towards the STEM disciplines throughout the years.

[Smudge]

On July 27, 2016 at 11:17, Jon the Hat said:

I quite agree.  Was more a comment that a little market uncertainty was some kind of life altering distaster for the people of the UK a month ago, and now there is barely a word about the fact that both the internationally focussed FTSE100 and more domestic 250 are above pre brexit.  Suggests to me the market is not very concerned, and the government are making the right noises publically and pricately, as are their EU counterparts.

Not so the pound Jon, nearly 20 cent drop since the referendum announcement which has cost me $200 on every £1000 pound I exchange. 

 

Unlikely to return either since the BoE is thinking of lowering interest rates.

[Dr The Singh]

2 minutes ago, Smudge said:

Not so the pound Jon, nearly 20 cent drop since the referendum announcement which has cost me $200 on every £1000 pound I exchange. 

 

Unlikely to return either since the BoE is thinking of lowering interest rates.

Very true, that is a downside!!  However companies exporting from the UK have benefitted from this!!

 

Bad for me, i'm travelling  to the states next week!!

[Smudge]

1 minute ago, Dr The Singh said:

Very true, that is a downside!!  However companies exporting from the UK have benefitted from this!!

 

Bad for me, i'm travelling  to the states next week!!

I'll put the kettle on 

[Dr The Singh]

1 minute ago, Smudge said:

I'll put the kettle on 

I drink beer!!

[Steven]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jul/29/uk-sees-biggest-fall-in-consumer-confidence-for-26-years-after-brexit-vote

 

 

UK sees biggest fall in consumer confidence for 26 years after Brexit vote

Economic outlook has hit household and manufacturing confidence, with index showing sharpest month-to-month drop since 1990

 

 The confidence index fell to -12 in July, from -1 in June, because of uncertainty about jobs, pay and the economy. Photograph: Jon Super

Katie Allen

Friday 29 July 2016 00.05 BSTLast modified on Friday 29 July 201600.06 BST

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Growing worries about the economic outlook have dented the confidence of UK households and manufacturers, according to the latest reports to suggest the Brexit vote result will slow the economy.

A poll by market researchers GfK recorded the biggest slide in consumer confidence for more than 26 years in July. The group said people were on average gloomier about their own finances, the broader economy and whether now was a good time to make big purchases such as furniture and household appliances.

A separate survey of manufacturing companies, also published on Friday, paints a similar picture. Manufacturers’ organisation EEF said that the sector’s recovery was under threat as its poll revealed business confidence had fallen in every region of England and Wales.

 

 

The GfK report on household reactions to the Brexit vote adds to evidence that consumers could rein in spending amid higher uncertainty about jobs, pay and the UK’s economic health.

The headline confidence index fell to -12 in July from -1 in the June surveycarried out before the referendum. That was the sharpest month-to-month drop since March 1990, shortly before the UK fell into recession.

The latest result was also weaker than a reading in a one-off post-referendum GfK poll of -9 conducted from 30 June to 5 July.

The researchers, who surveyed 2,000 people for the full report between 1 and 15 July, said the outlook for consumer confidence would depend on how quickly the UK’s trading position is clarified. 

“Consumers in post-Brexit Britain are reporting higher levels of concern this month,” said Joe Staton, head of market dynamics at GfK. “We’ve seen a very significant drop in confidence, as is clear from the fall in each of our key measures, with the biggest decrease occurring in the outlook for the general economic situation in the next 12 months.

“However, the index continues to remain at a relatively elevated level by historic[al] standards. Its future trajectory depends on whether we enter a new period of damaging economic uncertainty or restore confidence by embracing a positive stance on negotiating a new deal for the UK.”

The poll showed people were gloomier about their current and future personal finances and about the current and future state of the UK economy. Some of the results will have been collected before Theresa May became prime minister on 13 July and appointed a new cabinet, so ministers will be hoping a return to some political stability could improve confidence readings in coming months.

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 Manufacturers’ confidence score fell to 5.24 out of 10 after the vote, from 6.37 beforehand. Photograph: WPA Pool/Getty Images

The report follows a clutch of business surveys this week suggesting the vote to leave the EU could derail Britain’s economy following relatively strong economic growth in the run-up to the referendum. GDP was revealed to be up 0.6% in the second quarter, greater than the 0.4% growth seen in the previous three months, but more timely indicators pointed to falling confidence among car factories, high street stores and in the construction industry.

Manufacturing group EEF has added its voice to that gloom on Friday. Its overview of business confidence among factory bosses found optimism dropped most sharply in the south-east England and London region and in Wales. The smallest decline in confidence was among firms in the north-east England, according to the survey carried out with accountants BDO.

The poll of 410 firms found that UK manufacturers’ average confidence score just before the referendum was 6.37 out of a possible 10 points, and had declined to 5.24 following the vote.

“The Brexit vote has put the manufacturing sector’s recovery in jeopardy,” said Lee Hopley, chief economist at EEF.

She noted that despite suffering the largest fall, the south east England and London region still ranked top in the UK for business confidence while the north-west England and the east Midlands had the lowest scores.

“The growth path is now uncertain in all regions and, while firms in the south-east and London and Wales look better placed to ride the storm, companies in the eastern counties, north-east and the south-west appear more downbeat about their ability to cope,” Hopley said.

Exchange rate volatility, political uncertainty and the prospect of increased costs on the back of a weaker pound were all causing concern for manufacturers, the lobby group said.

“With a solid business environment, supportive policies and the right outcome from Brexit negotiations allowing for trade and ongoing access to skilled workers, manufacturers should be able to overcome the risks, reap future growth rewards and get their business confidence back on track,” it added.

Tom Lawton, manufacturing head at the report’s co-author, BDO, said there had been encouraging signs from the new government of support for the sector.

“The lack of a clear strategy for the manufacturing sector over recent years has been of huge concern and it is encouraging to see Theresa May’s promise of a proper industrial strategy,” said Lawton.

“We would like to see the government match manufacturers’ long-term outlook by developing a 15 to 20 year industrial policy that avoids the disruptions of the political cycle.”

[Alf Bentley]

Absolutely extraordinary admissions from the IMF: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/07/28/imf-admits-disastrous-love-affair-with-euro-apologises-for-the-i/

 

"The IMF's top staff misled their own board, made a series of calamitous misjudgments in Greece, became euphoric cheerleaders for the euro project, ignored warning signs of impending crisis, and collectively failed to grasp an elemental concept of currency theory. This is the lacerating verdict of the IMF’s top watchdog on the fund’s tangled political role in the eurozone debt crisis, the most damaging episode in the history of the Bretton Woods institutions".

 

" A sub-report on the Greek saga said the country was forced to go through a staggering squeeze, equal to 11pc of GDP over the first three years. This set off a self-feeding downward spiral. The worse it became, the more Greece was forced to cut – what ex-finance minister Yanis Varoufakis called "fiscal water-boarding".The injustice is that the cost of the bailouts was switched to ordinary Greek citizens  – the least able to support the burden  – and it was never acknowledged that the true motive of EU-IMF Troika policy was to protect monetary union. Indeed, the Greeks were repeatedly blamed for failures that stemmed from the policy itself. This unfairness – the root of so much bitterness in Greece – is finally recognised in the report. “If preventing international contagion was an essential concern, the cost of its prevention should have been borne – at least in part – by the international community as the prime beneficiary,” it said.

 

I wonder whether Tsipras and Varoufakis feel vindicated or as bitter as hell? More importantly, if the IMF is realising the error of its ways, will the EU do so, too - and reform the destructive Eurozone/EMU austerity system?

 

 

[norwichfox]

but...according to the constant stream of propaganda we have such low unemployment now....it can't be that bad can it. The majority of people loosing serious money are serial greedy b'stards....my opinion only.

[Steven]

US consumer confidence slips on Brexit concerns

US consumers were less confident in July than the previous month, according to a new survey, partly due to the Brexit vote.

The University of Michigan consumer sentiment index came in at 90 for July, lower than the 90.5 expected but up on the preliminary reading of 89.5. The final figure for the previous month was 93.5. The survey’s chief economist Richard Curtin said:

Although confidence strengthened in late July, for the month as a whole the Sentiment Index was still below last month’s level mainly due to increased concerns about economic prospects among upper income households.

The Brexit vote was spontaneously mentioned by record numbers of households with incomes in the top third (23%), more than twice as frequently as among households with incomes in the bottom two-thirds (11%). Given the prompt rebound in stock prices as well as the tiny direct impact on U.S. trade, it is surprising that concerns about Brexit remained nearly as high in late July as immediately following the Brexit vote.

While concerns about Brexit are likely to quickly recede, weaker prospects for the economy are likely to remain. Uncertainties surrounding global economic prospects and the presidential election will keep consumers more cautious in their expectations for future economic growth. Based on the strength in personal finances and low interest rates, real consumer spending is now expected to rise by 2.6% through mid 2017.

Meanwhile the Chicago purchasing managers index has come in at 55.8 in July, better than the expected 54 but below the 56.8 recorded in June.

 

[Webbo]

1 hour ago, Alf Bentley said:

Absolutely extraordinary admissions from the IMF: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/07/28/imf-admits-disastrous-love-affair-with-euro-apologises-for-the-i/

 

"The IMF's top staff misled their own board, made a series of calamitous misjudgments in Greece, became euphoric cheerleaders for the euro project, ignored warning signs of impending crisis, and collectively failed to grasp an elemental concept of currency theory. This is the lacerating verdict of the IMF’s top watchdog on the fund’s tangled political role in the eurozone debt crisis, the most damaging episode in the history of the Bretton Woods institutions".

 

" A sub-report on the Greek saga said the country was forced to go through a staggering squeeze, equal to 11pc of GDP over the first three years. This set off a self-feeding downward spiral. The worse it became, the more Greece was forced to cut – what ex-finance minister Yanis Varoufakis called "fiscal water-boarding".The injustice is that the cost of the bailouts was switched to ordinary Greek citizens  – the least able to support the burden  – and it was never acknowledged that the true motive of EU-IMF Troika policy was to protect monetary union. Indeed, the Greeks were repeatedly blamed for failures that stemmed from the policy itself. This unfairness – the root of so much bitterness in Greece – is finally recognised in the report. “If preventing international contagion was an essential concern, the cost of its prevention should have been borne – at least in part – by the international community as the prime beneficiary,” it said.

 

I wonder whether Tsipras and Varoufakis feel vindicated or as bitter as hell? More importantly, if the IMF is realising the error of its ways, will the EU do so, too - and reform the destructive Eurozone/EMU austerity system?

 

 

And yet these were the experts we were suppose to listen to. Ignoring  them was "post truth politics".

[Alf Bentley]

5 minutes ago, Webbo said:

And yet these were the experts we were suppose to listen to. Ignoring  them was "post truth politics".

 

It would be as bonkers to ignore all experts as it would be to blindly accept everything they say. Listen with an open and critical mind is my advice to you, Webbo!.  

 

I've always been critical of both the handling of the Greek crisis and the stupidity of the Euro/EMU set-up (the reason why I almost voted Leave).

Whereas there are some, naming no names, who supported the imposition of austerity in Greece - and who support the idea of austerity and balanced budgets....mainly Tories, I find. 

 

[Phrasing and emoticons selected to engender maximum irritation ]

[Thracian]

On 7/29/2016 at 15:07, Steven said:

US consumer confidence slips on Brexit concerns

US consumers were less confident in July than the previous month, according to a new survey, partly due to the Brexit vote.

The University of Michigan consumer sentiment index came in at 90 for July, lower than the 90.5 expected but up on the preliminary reading of 89.5. The final figure for the previous month was 93.5. The survey’s chief economist Richard Curtin said:

Although confidence strengthened in late July, for the month as a whole the Sentiment Index was still below last month’s level mainly due to increased concerns about economic prospects among upper income households.

The Brexit vote was spontaneously mentioned by record numbers of households with incomes in the top third (23%), more than twice as frequently as among households with incomes in the bottom two-thirds (11%). Given the prompt rebound in stock prices as well as the tiny direct impact on U.S. trade, it is surprising that concerns about Brexit remained nearly as high in late July as immediately following the Brexit vote.

While concerns about Brexit are likely to quickly recede, weaker prospects for the economy are likely to remain. Uncertainties surrounding global economic prospects and the presidential election will keep consumers more cautious in their expectations for future economic growth. Based on the strength in personal finances and low interest rates, real consumer spending is now expected to rise by 2.6% through mid 2017.

Meanwhile the Chicago purchasing managers index has come in at 55.8 in July, better than the expected 54 but below the 56.8 recorded in June.

 

You carry on trying to justify your stance Steven but the reality is that UK trade with the EU is falling in all sorts of charts and as low as 12% according to one report I read. Furthermore other countries seem to be queuing up to trade with us because they trust our integrity, our law and because we seem to have a basically stable economy.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11700443/The-EUs-dwindling-importance-to-UK-trade-in-three-charts.html

 

I see lots of such positives but don't bother posting them because there are downsides as well and, for all that I voted leave and my oldest voted Remain, I don't think it's straightforward trying to assess the best option for all that I'm stronger for leaving now than I was when I voted.

 

Basically I think the EU is doomed without the UK - and quickly so. So many countries are even more against membership than we were. But that doesn't blind me to the fact that the semblance of a united Europe could be so important  - it's just that the basis of that unity needs to be right and the current EU is nothing like right.   

     

f  

[Steven]

5 minutes ago, Thracian said:

Basically I think the EU is doomed without the UK - and quickly so.

If that is true then the world is doomed. If the World's largest economy is going to break up and fail that bodes ill for the rest of the World; including the UK.

[Thracian]

3 minutes ago, Steven said:

If that is true then the world is doomed. If the World's largest economy is going to break up and fail that bodes ill for the rest of the World; including the UK.

 

Not necessarily - I think there were 27 countries and states currently pushing for trade agreements with the UK:

 

http://www.cloudsovereurope.info/2016/07/now-27-countries-around-world-want.html

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11700443/The-EUs-dwindling-importance-to-UK-trade-in-three-charts.html

 

Doubtless not everything will come up quite as rosy as the posted links but I really don't see why other EU countries wouldn't have their own success too.

 

The EU has become bogged down by its own ambition, its endless directives, it's waste, its own self-importance and its limping economies. And the consequence is that it's like being on the end of an anchor dragging through cloying mud. 

 

We need to be freed from the anchor yet still be able to sit beside our friends in the deckchairs during good times and in the trenches should it eventually come to that.  

 

Because, for all that it is so cumbersome and pedantic,  what the EU has done is form friendships and a long period of goodwill between a big group of countries, some of have come to like and/or respect one another.

 

Many of those contacts can be maintained but not in the current form and not as a potential federation unless in a much more malleable, democratic and adaptable form than anything the current EU looks likely to represent.

 

I've not given up on it completely but I'm getting there because a) there needs to be some changes in philosophy and b) The Junck males have to go.

 

    

.  

    

 

      

[Thracian]

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/695229/House-of-Lords-block-Brexit-European-Union-Britain-leave-Theresa-May-Article-50

 

How utterly disgraceful. Flag-waving for the concept of a democracy where the wishes of voters can be indefinitely delayed or denied! 

 

What a piss-take when a ruling Prime Minister has actually offered a democratic referendum to the citizens of an established so-called democracy.

 

The sooner our notice of EU departure is tendered the better.  

 

Because people would seem to be using the time, not just to facilitate exit, but to find ways around the referendum. And doubtless to ignore the reasons why the people voted as they did, which would be equally disgraceful. 

 

Given our supposedly democratic status, I'm surprised that's not an offence although doubtless the lawyers would still find some loophole even if it was...thus revealing the truth that we're really a mock-democ and really need to look at places like Switzerland if we really want to see democracy in action.

 

There the people can table their own proposals with the right to have them voted on if they get sufficient support.

 

I've spent a lot of time in Switzerland and it's a place where they really do try to preserve their own culture, traditions and an air of peaceful harmony, no matter what the pressures.

 

Indeed no incomers are given citizenship unless they can show they've assimilated into the society and demonstrated their respect for the laws and culture of the country.

 

There are, for instance,  no faith grounds for girls refusing to swim with boys in school swimming classes or anyone refusing the tradition of shaking hands with their teachers. 

 

And an American was denied citizenship because he didn't know any of his neighbours or the names of local villages.     

 

   

 

       

Direct Democracy

Switzerland gives its citizens the chance to take a direct part in political decision-making. Although direct democracy is not unique to Switzerland, it is probably more highly developed here than in any other country. Swiss citizens can either propose legislation of their own, or work to defeat legislation already approved by parliament.

Any citizen has the right to propose new legislation by launching an initiative. Typically these initiatives are proposed by interest groups. Once the group has gathered at least 100,000 signatures in support of the proposal, it is put to a nationwide vote.

A referendum is a popular vote called to challenge a piece of legislation already approved by parliament. If a group opposed to the new law manages to collect at least 50,000 signatures within 100 days of the official publication of the proposed legislation, it is again put to a nationwide vote. Such a vote is mandatory if the legislation involves an amendment to the constitution or if the government is proposing that Switzerland sign a major international agreement.

There has to be a "double majority" (a majority of the people and a majority of the cantons), for an initiative or mandatory referendum to pass.

Voter participation in these initiatives and referendums tends to be around 40%. This is not very high, and innovations such as e-voting are being proposed to get more people to vote.

Two of Switzerland’s 26 cantons - Appenzell Inner Rhodes and Glarus - still hold an annual open-air assembly in which the citizens can vote on proposals in person.

 

 

[Buce]

It's funny how you suddenly champion democracy, when you are usually critical of it.

 

The referendum returned a bad decision, and I'd be more than happy to see it ignored by our representatives, elected or otherwise.

 

 

[reynard]

1 hour ago, Thracian said:

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/695229/House-of-Lords-block-Brexit-European-Union-Britain-leave-Theresa-May-Article-50

 

How utterly disgraceful. Flag-waving for the concept of a democracy where the wishes of voters can be indefinitely delayed or denied! 

 

What a piss-take when a ruling Prime Minister has actually offered a democratic referendum to the citizens of an established so-called democracy.

 

The sooner our notice of EU departure is tendered the better.  

 

Because people would seem to be using the time, not just to facilitate exit, but to find ways around the referendum. And doubtless to ignore the reasons why the people voted as they did, which would be equally disgraceful. 

 

Given our supposedly democratic status, I'm surprised that's not an offence although doubtless the lawyers would still find some loophole even if it was...thus revealing the truth that we're really a mock-democ and really need to look at places like Switzerland if we really want to see democracy in action.

 

There the people can table their own proposals with the right to have them voted on if they get sufficient support.

 

I've spent a lot of time in Switzerland and it's a place where they really do try to preserve their own culture, traditions and an air of peaceful harmony, no matter what the pressures.

 

Indeed no incomers are given citizenship unless they can show they've assimilated into the society and demonstrated their respect for the laws and culture of the country.

 

There are, for instance,  no faith grounds for girls refusing to swim with boys in school swimming classes or anyone refusing the tradition of shaking hands with their teachers. 

 

And an American was denied citizenship because he didn't know any of his neighbours or the names of local villages.     

 

   

 

       

Direct Democracy

Switzerland gives its citizens the chance to take a direct part in political decision-making. Although direct democracy is not unique to Switzerland, it is probably more highly developed here than in any other country. Swiss citizens can either propose legislation of their own, or work to defeat legislation already approved by parliament.

Any citizen has the right to propose new legislation by launching an initiative. Typically these initiatives are proposed by interest groups. Once the group has gathered at least 100,000 signatures in support of the proposal, it is put to a nationwide vote.

A referendum is a popular vote called to challenge a piece of legislation already approved by parliament. If a group opposed to the new law manages to collect at least 50,000 signatures within 100 days of the official publication of the proposed legislation, it is again put to a nationwide vote. Such a vote is mandatory if the legislation involves an amendment to the constitution or if the government is proposing that Switzerland sign a major international agreement.

There has to be a "double majority" (a majority of the people and a majority of the cantons), for an initiative or mandatory referendum to pass.

Voter participation in these initiatives and referendums tends to be around 40%. This is not very high, and innovations such as e-voting are being proposed to get more people to vote.

Two of Switzerland’s 26 cantons - Appenzell Inner Rhodes and Glarus - still hold an annual open-air assembly in which the citizens can vote on proposals in person.

 

 

It is called parliamentary democracy. It is the system we have. If you don't like it try to emigrate to Switzerland as they have a system you seem to prefer.

[Thracian]

It's an affront to democracy. And if your approach to every problem is to run away from it, don't expect me to comply. 

[Thracian]

17 hours ago, Steven said:

If that is true then the world is doomed. If the World's largest economy is going to break up and fail that bodes ill for the rest of the World; including the UK.

 

 

 

 

[reynard]

On 7/24/2016 at 11:15, BlueSi13 said:

If it's some sort of punishment for Brexit then it's fantastic that we voted to de-couple from such small-time pettiness.  Plus if the French want to cut themselves off from the vast British tourism market then so be it.  Similar actions going forward can only act as a boost to our own tourism industry.

 

If it's nothing to do with Brexit then it's yet another display of abject incompetence from the French authorities.  

 

Either way the French aren't coming out of this smelling too good.

It isn't really about tourism though is it.

I've been around long enough to remember travel for business reasons in continental Europe before freedom of movement  and before so many countries entered the EU. Of course things may stay the same but let me give you an example of how things worked.

Greece was member of the Eu but not a full member in which you enjoyed freedom of movement across the boarder. So when taking a vehicle into the country this is what you had to go through.

1 Queue up at the border for your passport to be stamped

2 Have your vehicle searched by Greek customs

3 Go to an office where your passport had to have documents relating to the value of your vehicle and any goods that were in it certified

4 You had three months to leave the country or face hefty import duty tariffs

5 On leaving the country have your documents stamped on the way out

6 On returning to Britain you had to go to customs and excise officers to register that you had returned and not sold you vehicle overseas.

 

Trying to operate in countries such as Hungary/Romania/Bulgaria etc was even more trying.

 

Now I'm not saying, nor do I suppose, we would go back to anything like such matters but any return to anything approaching that would be a very bad step for trade and personal travel.

However, if we truly want to control our borders and stop immigration or bring it down to levels people seem to deem reasonable then every lorry and vehicle entering the Uk will need to be searched and documented. This will apply to UK vehicles as well as foreign registered vehicles. If you don't do this then you are not controlling your borders. It isn't up to the French to provide a long term solution it is up to us. That is what we have voted to do.

Of course if we choose not to do this then essentially that is freedom of movement something so many in our country decided to turn their backs on.

 

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, Thracian said:

It's an affront to democracy. And if your approach to every problem is to run away from it, don't expect me to comply. 

I thought you advocated running away from the EU.

[Thracian]

2 minutes ago, FIF said:

I thought you advocated running away from the EU.

I never advocated joining the EU in the first place, nor a whole stack of things that the EU has done on the quiet.

 

However, and as you well know, I'm as keen to remain allied within "Europe" as most but then "Europe" is not the same as the EU.