Brexit Discussion Thread.

[GazzinderFox]

12 hours ago, The Doctor said:

Which would still mean research funding would be down, far from the game changer. Definitely over 5000-1; I wouldn't even bother to offer odds in it - the game changer I would want is domestic funding doubling, having us top the G8 nations: on top of the EU funding we receive. For that to happen post brexit we've got to add 150% of what we get back from the EU research budget; and then still double current funding (rather than playing fast and loose with the stats). There's also the problem that so much growth in British research is down to pan-European collaborations which would be under threat as a result.

 

Do I trust the government to maintain the current levels of funding (from all sources)? Not really. Do I trust them to up it to the level it should be? Definitely not. If they've shown no inclination to up funding now, exiting the EU won't make a difference on that regard.

I don't know the answer to this it's a genuine question. Does it necessarily follow that when we leave the EU all funding from the EU for these projects will cease, even if it is in the best interests of the EU for them to continue. I ask because I've heard a lot on this subject about the EU being more broadminded about funding for the sciences than the UK is because the UK is only interested in its own narrow nationalist agenda.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Dr The Singh said:

My south Indian brothers would not be able to associate 'inder' in your name.  It's a Punjabi coloquel thing.  interms of hybrid names, I can understand why anyone would call there child Sharon deep/kit/preet etc

I can't understand why anyone would call their daughter Sharon.

[The Doctor]

12 hours ago, GazzinderFox said:

I don't know the answer to this it's a genuine question. Does it necessarily follow that when we leave the EU all funding from the EU for these projects will cease, even if it is in the best interests of the EU for them to continue. I ask because I've heard a lot on this subject about the EU being more broadminded about funding for the sciences than the UK is because the UK is only interested in its own narrow nationalist agenda.

If we're out of the eu and efta - so completely independent of the EU then funding from it won't be approved: why would it?

[GazzinderFox]

14 hours ago, The Doctor said:

If we're out of the eu and efta - so completely independent of the EU then funding from it won't be approved: why would it?

Because it would be in the best interests of the EU to be able to continue collaborating with the UK and our world class universities? (note the question mark) I thought that was what the EU was all about broadminded collaboration and not the pursuit of narrow nationalistic agendas? Israel and Turkey receive funding for science projects why wouldn't we? 

[leicsmac]

22 minutes ago, GazzinderFox said:

Because it would be in the best interests of the EU to be able to continue collaborating with the UK and our world class universities? (note the question mark) I thought that was what the EU was all about broadminded collaboration and not the pursuit of narrow nationalistic agendas? Israel and Turkey receive funding for science projects why wouldn't we? 

I'm sure they want to continue to collaborate, but the decision on funding of UK science to make sure that happens is no longer theirs to make.

[Guest MattP]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

I'm sure they want to continue to collaborate, but the decision on funding of UK science to make sure that happens is no longer theirs to make.

Frightening to think it ever was to be honest.

[leicsmac]

5 minutes ago, MattP said:

Frightening to think it ever was to be honest.

Not to me.

 

The further science stays apolitical and away from nationalism, the better. Mengele, von Braun, Unit 731 and the MKULTRA Program and Tuskegee Projects are all a testament to that.

 

(I know the fact we got to the Moon was due to the US and USSR wanting more accurate ways to wipe each other out, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.)

[GazzinderFox]

20 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Not to me.

 

The further science stays apolitical and away from nationalism, the better. Mengele, von Braun, Unit 731 and the MKULTRA Program and Tuskegee Projects are all a testament to that.

 

(I know the fact we got to the Moon was due to the US and USSR wanting more accurate ways to wipe each other out, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.)

Indeed, who knows what kind of frankenstein project May now has lined up in the basement at number 10. She's free to pursue her most sinister machinations now the EU isn't here to protect us! I think you're clutching at straws, I really do.  

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, GazzinderFox said:

Indeed, who knows what kind of frankenstein project May now has lined up in the basement at number 10. She's free to pursue her most sinister machinations now the EU isn't here to protect us! I think you're clutching at straws, I really do.  

TBH I'm a lot more worried about UK scientists being marginalised in the form of having no funding and so being left out of key scientific projects rather than what the UK politicians can cook up for their own projects, but even though it's unlikely to happen in this case I remember almost every perversion of science being done in the name of establishing the superiority of a people, and the more collaboration and so the more that becomes less of a possibility - the better.

 

For instance, the US have an immensely annoying piece of protectionist bullshit called ITAR that you might want to look at as an example of what I want gone.

[The Doctor]

8 hours ago, GazzinderFox said:

Because it would be in the best interests of the EU to be able to continue collaborating with the UK and our world class universities? (note the question mark) I thought that was what the EU was all about broadminded collaboration and not the pursuit of narrow nationalistic agendas? Israel and Turkey receive funding for science projects why wouldn't we? 

European researchers will be able to continue collaborating with British researchers - but British researchers won't be able to apply for grants from the EU to fund their research (and the end to free movement of workers that a big chunk of the Brexiteers wanted will make collaborations harder, since there'll be the burden of sorting working visas before that can happen). As for narrow-minded nationalistic agendas - look closer to home for those.

 

Israel and Turkey signed association agreements - they're not full members (and in Turkeys case they're unlikely to get anywhere near full membership for decades) but they work with the EU and have access that way. Since an association agreement involves a commitment to close political and economic cooperation with the EU, I'd doubt post exit Britain to be down for that.

 

6 hours ago, MattP said:

Frightening to think it ever was to be honest.

Far from the case - Research thrives on international collaborations, and ensuring that there's always a source of funding for that is important. There's literally no down-side to there being EU funding available as well, so how on earth can it be frightening?

[leicsmac]

4 hours ago, The Doctor said:

 

Far from the case - Research thrives on international collaborations, and ensuring that there's always a source of funding for that is important. There's literally no down-side to there being EU funding available as well, so how on earth can it be frightening?

Because to some, national interest based on land or sea borders comes before scientific research and progress as one species.

 

Yes, that's probably a strawman and I'm past caring.

[GazzinderFox]

11 hours ago, The Doctor said:

Israel and Turkey signed association agreements - they're not full members (and in Turkeys case they're unlikely to get anywhere near full membership for decades) but they work with the EU and have access that way. Since an association agreement involves a commitment to close political and economic cooperation with the EU, I'd doubt post exit Britain to be down for that.

Is there a point in trying to reason with with somebody who thinks that we voted for brexit because we want to be less a part of Europe than Turkey and Israel? You see what you want to see obviously. Israel, what commitment have they had towards close political and economic cooperation? They're just allowed to flog their stuff here tariff free - just like will be doing post-brexit.

 

Brexit was not a vote to stop cooperation with the EU, which even the most ferocious brexiteer agrees is one of our most important relationships, it was a vote to no longer be manacled to it. The UK will cooperate with the EU because it will have to, just as they will with us!!!!  

 

Time to burn your strawmen Doc.

      

[The Doctor]

4 hours ago, GazzinderFox said:

Is there a point in trying to reason with with somebody who thinks that we voted for brexit because we want to be less a part of Europe than Turkey and Israel? You see what you want to see obviously. Israel, what commitment have they had towards close political and economic cooperation? They're just allowed to flog their stuff here tariff free - just like will be doing post-brexit.

 

Brexit was not a vote to stop cooperation with the EU, which even the most ferocious brexiteer agrees is one of our most important relationships, it was a vote to no longer be manacled to it. The UK will cooperate with the EU because it will have to, just as they will with us!!!!  

 

Time to burn your strawmen Doc.

      

Not what I said though is it - I said Israel and Turkey have association agreements which require commitment to close political and economical cooperation - not simply working together. Having extracted ourselves from the EU, with big arguments being made for regaining sovreignity and being apart from the EUs economic setup; we're not going to go diving back into that are we?

 

Before you tell people to burn their strawmen, probably want to check you know what you're talking about and aren't just constructing strawmen of your own.

[The Railway Man]

11 hours ago, leicsmac said:

Because to some, national interest based on land or sea borders comes before scientific research and progress as one species.

 

Yes, that's probably a strawman and I'm past caring.

Certainy is, it's a bit silly given with a bit of talking we can probably be involved in this anyway.

 

And if not it's the EU who are the ones with a national interest based on land or sea borders comeing before scientific research and progress as one species

[leicsmac]

9 minutes ago, The Railway Man said:

Certainy is, it's a bit silly given with a bit of talking we can probably be involved in this anyway.

 

And if not it's the EU who are the ones with a national interest based on land or sea borders comeing before scientific research and progress as one species

I don't reckon that if such negotiations fail the EU will be the only one to blame, but I guess time will tell. Hopefully they will not fail.

 

I guess I'm just frustrated that the field of large-scale scientific research, a field that in this day and age I like to think can be apolitical and rise above the petty politics of nations squabbling with each other, is being threatened and used as a political football by people on all sides for their own ends as part of a greater battle, and the UK scientific community - the folks who most want to stay out of it and just get on with trying to, generally, make the world a better place - are getting caught in the crossfire and having career paths potentially restricted through absolutely no fault of their own.

 

But perhaps such is inevitable.

[Guest MattP]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

I don't reckon that if such negotiations fail the EU will be the only one to blame, but I guess time will tell. Hopefully they will not fail.

 

I guess I'm just frustrated that the field of large-scale scientific research, a field that in this day and age I like to think can be apolitical and rise above the petty politics of nations squabbling with each other, is being threatened and used as a political football by people on all sides for their own ends as part of a greater battle, and the UK scientific community - the folks who most want to stay out of it and just get on with trying to, generally, make the world a better place - are getting caught in the crossfire and having career paths potentially restricted through absolutely no fault of their own.

 

But perhaps such is inevitable.

Let's be quite honest, whoever is at fault it's the Brexiteers who will get the blame, I think that's pretty clear already given the position most have taken before we've even started the process of implementing article 50, I think some people even want to see the country fail in some warped way because they think it will prove them right.

[leicsmac]

9 minutes ago, MattP said:

Let's be quite honest, whoever is at fault it's the Brexiteers who will get the blame, I think that's pretty clear already given the position most have taken before we've even started the process of implementing article 50, I think some people even want to see the country fail in some warped way because they think it will prove them right.

I think there's deep division and polarisation - something that became pretty clear early on and has shown no sign of abating. Both sides do little but blame the other.

 

For what it's worth the issues debated in the past couple of pages are my own hobby horse which I consider to be much more important for the future of humanity - British and otherwise - than any other issue in the whole debate. Trade and sovereignty etc only matter to a fully functional civilisation, after all.

 

Of course, other people think differently.

 

If the Brexit team can get an ironclad agreement that they will guarantee future collaboration with UK scientists and their EU-based counterparts - and, more importantly the funding that goes with it - and stick to it unreservedly, then fair enough. If they could actually diverge from the UK establishment view of science being a funny sideshow run by blokes in the shed at the bottom of the garden (except when there's something they can sell, of course) in the form of actually looking to get serious and provide the financial power for the UK to be a leader in collaborative future projects that actually matter as opposed to those that just guarantee a reasonable rate of return, then better still.

 

We wait and see.

[Carl the Llama]

9 hours ago, MattP said:

Let's be quite honest, whoever is at fault it's the Brexiteers who will get the blame, I think that's pretty clear already given the position most have taken before we've even started the process of implementing article 50, I think some people even want to see the country fail in some warped way because they think it will prove them right.

Wouldn't that be ironic after all these years of everything being the EU's fault? 

[Steven]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2016/aug/19/markets-uk-public-finances-brexit-data-recession-business-live

 

 

PwC: No sign of Brexit downturn yet....

PwC chief economist John Hawksworth has cast his expert eye over Britain’s public finances, and concluded that they’re not too shabby.

“The public finances were in surplus by £1 billion in July, which is a reasonable performance albeit slightly down on the £1.2 billion budget surplus recorded in July 2015.

“For the four months to July, the cumulative budget deficit in this financial year is running around £3 billion lower than in the same period last year, though the rate of deficit reduction has been slower than the OBR forecast back in March.

But while there’s no immediate sign of a Brexit shock, the full impact of June’s referendum won’t be seen for some time (as ONS chief economist Joe Grice also warned this morning).

Hawksworth explains:

“Overall, as with other official data released this week for retail sales and the unemployment claimant count, there is no real sign yet of a downturn in economic fortunes following the Brexit vote. But it will be some months before we get a clearer picture of this as it will take time for companies to adjust their investment and hiring plans to the new post-referendum environment.”

[Steven]

Boom or gloom? The economic verdict on Brexit … so far

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/aug/19/boom-or-gloom-the-economic-impact-of-brexit-so-far

 

 

[yorkie1999]

That new bmw is gonna cost 20% more because of the exchange rate post Brexit vote, so i don't think i'll bother buying it. Who's worse off? 

[Steven]

Boom times!

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2016/aug/26/all-eyes-on-yellen-as-jackson-hole-kicks-off-business-live

[Guest MattP]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2016/sep/01/apple-boss-eu-irish-tax-swoop-political-crap-tim-cook-business-live

 

UK manufacturing stages surprise rebound as Brexit shock fades - business live

Britain’s manufacturing sector grew at the fastest rate in 10 months in August as a weaker pound boosted exports and the initial shock of the Brexit vote subsided

[Jon the Hat]

Another idiot on the radio this morning criticising the points based immigration system on the basis that Australia has higher net migration than we do!  YES you fool, because they WANT higher net migration, and with a points based system, they can choose to have it, and indeed how many points they give for the skills and professions and so on that they want and need. 

[Thracian]

On 8/15/2016 at 11:40, FIF said:

I can't understand why anyone would call their daughter Sharon.

Far to Hebrew I presume. 

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