Brexit Discussion Thread.

[GaelicFox]

6 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

I've already done one lengthy post, so won't do another but, briefly....

 

- Although technically the referendum wasn't binding, I think parliament should abide by the result as referendum results are generally perceived to have higher authority than parliament (the people above parliament above government)

- Your talk of "transparent ploys to keep us in" seems paranoid. I reckon only a tiny minority now hope to stay in, as it would further undermine public faith in democracy and politics if the referendum result was ignored. Many Remainers and Soft Brexiters now hope to bring about a Soft Brexit and not a Hard Brexit. That is perfectly valid as the terms of Brexit weren't clear during the referendum. The courts are just trying to protect the (unwritten) constitution and parliamentary democracy from executive abuse.

- As I understand it, if this goes to a parliamentary vote (or the court ruling is overturned) and we trigger Article 50, the EU can do nothing about it - that's our right. On the other hand, if it chooses (it won't) the EU could refuse to agree a Brexit deal or to extend the 2-year negotiating period, regardless of our negotiating stance. They can't stop us leaving, though.

- Surely, if Parliament tells the PM "you must do X or Y" and she negotiates something different or fails to agree anything, that's a matter for EU law and UK politics....under EU law the UK would leave with or without any Brexit deal she negotiated, and the British people and British parliament could express their judgment on that by supporting her or by voting her out of office but wouldn't be able to overturn Brexit, whatever its terms.

Briefly 

 

 

[Alf Bentley]

1 minute ago, GaelicFox said:

Briefly 

 

 

 

 

That's brief by my standards! 

[GaelicFox]

29 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

 

That's brief by my standards! 

I have noticed 

 

spot on as usual ( well mostly usual  ) 

[Webbo]

37 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

 

- Surely, if Parliament tells the PM "you must do X or Y" and she negotiates something different or fails to agree anything, that's a matter for EU law and UK politics....under EU law the UK would leave with or without any Brexit deal she negotiated, and the British people and British parliament could express their judgment on that by supporting her or by voting her out of office but wouldn't be able to overturn Brexit, whatever its terms.

But if the MPs say" you can only leave as long as you stay in the single market", for instance. The EU will know this as it's public record, therefore they can say you can only stay if you accept freedom of movement, the jurisdiction of the ECJ and pay £10 billion net per year into the budget, in other words virtually no difference to now. If the EU know that we're prepared to walk away with no deal then it's up to them to make concessions. Making pre conditions can only weaken our hand.

[Alf Bentley]

6 minutes ago, Webbo said:

But if the MPs say" you can only leave as long as you stay in the single market", for instance. The EU will know this as it's public record, therefore they can say you can only stay if you accept freedom of movement, the jurisdiction of the ECJ and pay £10 billion net per year into the budget, in other words virtually no difference to now. If the EU know that we're prepared to walk away with no deal then it's up to them to make concessions. Making pre conditions can only weaken our hand.

 

No doubt the EU will be assessing UK politics so as to negotiate the best possible deal for itself (or to refuse any deal if that seems better) - but it will be doing that, anyway. Likewise, we'll be assessing the politics of the EU as a whole and of influential member states or groups (possibly all member states) so as to negotiate the best possible deal for ourselves (or to leave without a deal if that seems better).

 

The UK Parliament wouldn't have the power to impose binding conditions on the PM/negotiators as the negotiations will take place under the authority of the EU, not the UK Parliament, surely? Once Parliament votes to allow the PM to trigger Article 50, the PM will be able to negotiate something different or to reach no agreement and we'd end up leaving after 2 years with no deal. The only power of the UK parliament then would be to reject any final deal brought before Parliament (risking the UK leaving the EU with no deal unless the 2-year-period was extended) or to bring down the government, causing an election.....that's my understanding, but I might be wrong! 

[Strokes]

19 minutes ago, Webbo said:

But if the MPs say" you can only leave as long as you stay in the single market", for instance. The EU will know this as it's public record, therefore they can say you can only stay if you accept freedom of movement, the jurisdiction of the ECJ and pay £10 billion net per year into the budget, in other words virtually no difference to now. If the EU know that we're prepared to walk away with no deal then it's up to them to make concessions. Making pre conditions can only weaken our hand.

But like Alf says, once article 50 is triggered parliament can have no control of how we leave as really, it's the EU that ultimately decide that. Pre conditions wouldn't be worth the paper they are written on.

[Webbo]

Just now, Strokes said:

But like Alf says, once article 50 is triggered parliament can have no control of how we leave as really, it's the EU that ultimately decide that. Pre conditions wouldn't be worth the paper they are written on.

The MPs can demand amendments to the bill to invoke A50 or vote it down. Then it could have to go to the Lords who don't have constituents to worry about who can drag it out.

 

If it was going to pass anyway why spend money taking this to court? This is clearly an attempt to block Brexit or water it down so much that we're virtually staying in anyway.

[Strokes]

Just now, Webbo said:

The MPs can demand amendments to the bill to invoke A50 or vote it down. Then it could have to go to the Lords who don't have constituents to worry about who can drag it out.

 

If it was going to pass anyway why spend money taking this to court? This is clearly an attempt to block Brexit or water it down so much that we're virtually staying in anyway.

I'm not denying the motives, I'm just saying preconditions can't work. If we trigger article 50 and the EU don't offer a deal or negotiate. We will leave at the end of it with nothing and there is nothing parliament can do.

[Spiritwalker]

This is great news for democracy. Let's be honest millions voted in the referendum, roughly

half voted to stay, roughly half voted to leave but slightly more voted to leave so we should leave.

Since the result much of the press and many hard right Tories have decided to rewrite history 

claiming the public are  demanding an end to free movement, and

demanding we leave the single market. There was never a mandate for this, the hard brexiters

just presumed that's what people wanted when they ticked leave.

 

[Strokes]

10 minutes ago, Spiritwalker said:

This is great news for democracy. Let's be honest millions voted in the referendum, roughly

half voted to stay, roughly half voted to leave but slightly more voted to leave so we should leave.

Since the result much of the press and many hard right Tories have decided to rewrite history 

claiming the public are  demanding an end to free movement, and

demanding we leave the single market. There was never a mandate for this, the hard brexiters

just presumed that's what people wanted when they ticked leave.

 

Let me guess, you voted.......wait this hard.....ooooh.......just a hunch, I'm going to say remain?

[sm1]

25 minutes ago, Spiritwalker said:

This is great news for democracy. Let's be honest millions voted in the referendum, roughly

half voted to stay, roughly half voted to leave but slightly more voted to leave so we should leave.

Since the result much of the press and many hard right Tories have decided to rewrite history 

claiming the public are  demanding an end to free movement, and

demanding we leave the single market. There was never a mandate for this, the hard brexiters

just presumed that's what people wanted when they ticked leave.

 

 

Hard or soft Brexit isn't chosen by us, its upto the European Union, which have made it clear if we want access to the single market we have to play by their rules, one of which is freedom of movement, basically open borders. What's that got to do with the Tories, either they accept this directive or we have to leave the single market.

Considering one of the main reasons people voted for Brexit was immigration and the effect it was having on the NHS, schools, housing and the job market, I think it will be very difficult for the government to accept the EU directive.

The greatest news for democracy will be when the peoples vote is fulfilled and we leave the EU. Everything else is anti democracy. The people have spoken, now the public servants need to act according to the peoples will. That's true democracy.

[Spiritwalker]

33 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Let me guess, you voted.......wait this hard.....ooooh.......just a hunch, I'm going to say remain?

How did you guess?

 

I don't want parliament to block brexit. I just want the democratically elected MPs

to have a say on what type of brexit we try to negotiate and not leave it to May 

and loony right of her party who she is trying to placate.

[Spiritwalker]

13 minutes ago, sm1 said:

 

Hard or soft Brexit isn't chosen by us, its upto the European Union, which have made it clear if we want access to the single market we have to play by their rules, one of which is freedom of movement, basically open borders. What's that got to do with the Tories, either they accept this directive or we have to leave the single market.

Considering one of the main reasons people voted for Brexit was immigration and the effect it was having on the NHS, schools, housing and the job market, I think it will be very difficult for the government to accept the EU directive.

The greatest news for democracy will be when the peoples vote is fulfilled and we leave the EU. Everything else is anti democracy. The people have spoken, now the public servants need to act according to the peoples will. That's true democracy.

I agree with you that a large percentage of the of the leave vote was due to concerns on immigration but the

vote was a simple leave or remain. Many of those who voted to leave would have done so in the belief that

we would be remaining in the single market with restrictions on free movement. If they thought that by

voting leave we would cut ties with the EU and leave the single market just so we could stop free movement

then many would have reluctantly voted remain.

 

[GaelicFox]

58 minutes ago, Spiritwalker said:

How did you guess?

 

I don't want parliament to block brexit. I just want the democratically elected MPs

to have a say on what type of brexit we try to negotiate and not leave it to May 

and loony right of her party who she is trying to placate.

This 

[GaelicFox]

1 hour ago, sm1 said:

 

Hard or soft Brexit isn't chosen by us, its upto the European Union, which have made it clear if we want access to the single market we have to play by their rules, one of which is freedom of movement, basically open borders. What's that got to do with the Tories, either they accept this directive or we have to leave the single market.

Considering one of the main reasons people voted for Brexit was immigration and the effect it was having on the NHS, schools, housing and the job market, I think it will be very difficult for the government to accept the EU directive.

The greatest news for democracy will be when the peoples vote is fulfilled and we leave the EU. Everything else is anti democracy. The people have spoken, now the public servants need to act according to the peoples will. That's true democracy.

We have had immigration for hundreds of years , it's laughable people think Brexit will stop that ..... seriously I get the concern and actually if the education , health ,benefits system and housing was overhauled and actually run properly there would be no issues of such , we were fcuked before the poles and the Latvians arrived and we will be fcuked after they stop coming 

 

if we want a better Britain locking the Europeans out isn't the solution .... there are corners of Yorkshire where a Latvian or pole would be wildly welcomed ! 

 

The whole Brexit is a mess and the thinking that when we leave it will be better is laughable ....

 

can't wait to see the lazy British locals in Boston Lincs out pricking Brussel sprouts for Christmas on freezing mornings  

 

 

Putin will start a war soon enough and Brexit will be shelved for ever , right back to pints of ale 

 

 

 

[theessexfox]

1 minute ago, GaelicFox said:

We have had immigration for hundreds of years , it's laughable people think Brexit will stop that ..... seriously I get the concern and actually if the education , health ,benefits system and housing was overhauled and actually run properly there would be no issues of such , we were fcuked before the poles and the Latvians arrived and we will be fcuked after they stop coming 

 

if we want a better Britain locking the Europeans out isn't the solution .... there are corners of Yorkshire where a Latvian or pole would be wildly welcomed ! 

 

 

Why does controlling immigration have to mean stopping immigration? 

[GaelicFox]

7 minutes ago, theessexfox said:

Why does controlling immigration have to mean stopping immigration? 

Yip let's see how that goes ... points system has already been binned 

 

I sort of meant low cost low skill labour immigration , the hard working people who clean up after us , pick our veg and fruit , build our homes , wash our cars , look after our sick and elderly , the jobs the lazy millions on the dole can't be arsed to do ! 

 

the type immigration you cannot control, the type of immigration a furnace hot economy needs ! We will stagnate and drop off the world scene without it 

 

so no government can afford to stop it Comming so they won't , haven't you noticed no one has even mentioned how or when border controls and immigration control will come in ! It's because they aren't coming 

 

 

[theessexfox]

Just now, GaelicFox said:

Yip let's see how that goes ... points system has already been binned 

 

I sort of meant low cost low skill labour immigration , the hard working people who clean up after us , pick our veg and fruit , build our homes , wash our cars , look after our sick and elderly , the jobs the lazy millions on the dole can't be arsed to do ! 

 

the type immigration you cannot control, the type of immigration a furnace hot economy needs ! We will stagnate and drop off the world scene without it 

 

so no government can afford to stop it Comming be they won't , haven't you noticed no one has even mentioned how or when border controls and immigration control will come in ! It's because they aren't coming

 

 

I'd argue it's because a referendum simplifies the question to a simple yes/no, and the common public don't have the interest or expertise to engage in that level of detail and planning; I imagine that'll be left to the relevant authorities. I know fairly little about immigration control but from what I understand, the UK manages to have non-EU migration without having an uncontrollable system. 

[bovril]

11 minutes ago, theessexfox said:

Why does controlling immigration have to mean stopping immigration? 

No country really controls immigration.

 

Immigrants in all countries generally fall in to two categories, those doing the skilled jobs for which we have a shortage, and those doing some of the worst jobs you can imagine, which locals by and large don't want to do. This is the same everywhere, there aren't many Italian au pairs or grape harvesters in Italy, for example. 

 

Brexit won't change this by and large. Of course we can train more people, or encourage British firms to employ more of our own low-skilled workforce. In Holland for example it's a lot harder for firms to employ foreign workers at slave wage levels.

[sm1]

2 minutes ago, GaelicFox said:

Yip let's see how that goes ... points system has already been binned 

 

I sort of meant low cost low skill labour immigration , the hard working people who clean up after us , pick our veg and fruit , build our homes , wash our cars , look after our sick and elderly , the jobs the lazy millions on the dole can't be arsed to do ! 

 

the type immigration you cannot control, the type of immigration a furnace hot economy needs ! We will stagnate and drop off the world scene without it 

 

so no government can afford to stop it Comming so they won't , haven't you noticed no one has even mentioned how or when border controls and immigration control will come in ! It's because they aren't coming 

 

 

Regardless border control is the prerogative of every sovereign country. At the moment we're being put over the barrel by the EU. Controlled immigration is important, i'm the son of 2 immigrants who've worked a combined 90 years here, mostly labour intensive low pay jobs. When my father tells me how difficult it was to get here in the 60's, he isn't angered by it, he's happy that Britain had a tough stance. Having worked in recruitment many years ago, I can tell you the proportion of low wage casual staff is disproportionally foreign. There's a need for immigration, but it should be our laws that determine who comes here, not EU.

[bovril]

9 minutes ago, sm1 said:

Regardless border control is the prerogative of every sovereign country. At the moment we're being put over the barrel by the EU. Controlled immigration is important, i'm the son of 2 immigrants who've worked a combined 90 years here, mostly labour intensive low pay jobs. When my father tells me how difficult it was to get here in the 60's, he isn't angered by it, he's happy that Britain had a tough stance. Having worked in recruitment many years ago, I can tell you the proportion of low wage casual staff is disproportionally foreign. There's a need for immigration, but it should be our laws that determine who comes here, not EU.

The EU doesn't force the firms using the recruitment agency you mention to employ foreign-born staff. Border control has nothing to do with HR decisions in British companies.

[GaelicFox]

1 hour ago, theessexfox said:

I'd argue it's because a referendum simplifies the question to a simple yes/no, and the common public don't have the interest or expertise to engage in that level of detail and planning; I imagine that'll be left to the relevant authorities. I know fairly little about immigration control but from what I understand, the UK manages to have non-EU migration without having an uncontrollable system. 

Our non Eu migration system is a Disaster and failing compleatly 

[sm1]

1 hour ago, bovril said:

The EU doesn't force the firms using the recruitment agency you mention to employ foreign-born staff. Border control has nothing to do with HR decisions in British companies.

No, they do it by choice because the casual/agency  job market is saturated with foreign workers, which is directly related to border controls. 

I've heard people tell me that they're the only ones that want to do this work because the young British workers refuse to do it. That's rubbish, having worked for agencies in the early to mid 90's as a student,  all agency staff were young and British. I can't even remember one foreign worker. Now its the reverse. If they used to do it 20-25 years ago why can't they do it now? Like I said immigration is important but should be based on the individual needs of each country and their demographics.

[GaelicFox]

1 hour ago, sm1 said:

Regardless border control is the prerogative of every sovereign country. At the moment we're being put over the barrel by the EU. Controlled immigration is important, i'm the son of 2 immigrants who've worked a combined 90 years here, mostly labour intensive low pay jobs. When my father tells me how difficult it was to get here in the 60's, he isn't angered by it, he's happy that Britain had a tough stance. Having worked in recruitment many years ago, I can tell you the proportion of low wage casual staff is disproportionally foreign. There's a need for immigration, but it should be our laws that determine who comes here, not EU.

But the majority voted to put you out of a job buddy , they didn't vote to change laws and control laws they voted to stop Johnny Foreigner coming here and " taking our jobs and clogging up our schools and hospitals and to stop them stealing our benefits" 

 

They only want highly qualified people , but who will wipe the arse of our dying elderly for minimum wage , stack our shelves etc.... you can't control low skill low wage workers , the rules would need to be so open we would have the same numbers coming now ! 

 

We cant manage non EU migration now , how on earth are we going to do it in future  

 

and also we will have a 200 mile open border with no visible checks with the EU , southern and Northern Ireland , because if they put hard border controls in we will reignite the troubles in ireland and that costs billions to manage so all out EU savings will be lost in trying to manage home grown terrorism 

 

I'm happy to see a Brexit but we must maintain our place on the common market place and if that means free movement for EU cousins then that's cool as well 

 

ultimately that's what's gonna happen 

[sm1]

5 minutes ago, GaelicFox said:

But the majority voted to put you out of a job buddy , they didn't vote to change laws and control laws they voted to stop Johnny Foreigner coming here and " taking our jobs and clogging up our schools and hospitals and to stop them stealing our benefits" 

 

They only want highly qualified people , but who will wipe the arse of our dying elderly for minimum wage , stack our shelves etc.... you can't control low skill low wage workers , the rules would need to be so open we would have the same numbers coming now ! 

 

We cant manage non EU migration now , how on earth are we going to do it in future  

 

and also we will have a 200 mile open border with no visible checks with the EU , southern and Northern Ireland , because if they put hard border controls in we will reignite the troubles in ireland and that costs billions to manage so all out EU savings will be lost in trying to manage home grown terrorism 

 

I'm happy to see a Brexit but we must maintain our place on the common market place and if that means free movement for EU cousins then that's cool as well 

 

ultimately that's what's gonna happen 

I'm glad to say they I don't have any fears over my job but as much you may not like it, "Johnny Foreigner coming and taking our jobs and our benefits" is the attitude that won Brexit. It was a simple message and it worked.