bovril Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 10 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said: #keepthemetaphoralive Snap elections could lead to a hung parliament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 4 minutes ago, bovril said: Snap elections could lead to a hung parliament. Hung like a donkey? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 4 minutes ago, davieG said: Nothing would make me confident about any political solutions. Sadly we can't put them all in here as anarchy is not going to help either. I've no idea these days who's the best of the worst. It's difficult, isn't it? I quite like the idea of anarchic donkeys roaming wild across the British countryside. But you just know that control will be taken by some charismatic donkey with a little tash or some ruthless, calculating donkey given to riding horses bare-chested across the Russian steppes. The über-donkey will lead its donkey followers to invade other farms and it'll all end badly. We're still better off with donkeys in parliament and on the bench - the least bad option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Guvnor Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 Just now, Facecloth said: He was a leave campaigner. He quit due to 'irreconcilable differences' with the government over how they were dealing with Brexit as he didn't want to leave the single market. Was TM a leaver or remainer who knows,anyway ultimately as we will leave it will be the EU who decides what direction of travel is possible (excuse the pun) with the single market, don't forget it's their club with their rules we will obviously go for the best deal with regards the single market as it stands no chance, with tariff free trade if that means free movement it is a no deal, call it hard Brexit ,soft Brexit whatever you want it really is as simple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Guvnor Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 1 minute ago, Alf Bentley said: It's difficult, isn't it? I quite like the idea of anarchic donkeys roaming wild across the British countryside. But you just know that control will be taken by some charismatic donkey with a little tash or some ruthless, calculating donkey given to riding horses bare-chested across the Russian steppes. The über-donkey will lead its donkey followers to invade other farms and it'll all end badly. We're still better off with donkeys in parliament and on the bench - the least bad option. Ha ha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bovril Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 3 minutes ago, Buce said: Hung like a donkey? Well done you got the joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Facecloth Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 4 minutes ago, The Guvnor said: Was TM a leaver or remainer who knows,anyway ultimately as we will leave it will be the EU who decides what direction of travel is possible (excuse the pun) with the single market, don't forget it's their club with their rules we will obviously go for the best deal with regards the single market as it stands no chance, with tariff free trade if that means free movement it is a no deal, call it hard Brexit ,soft Brexit whatever you want it really is as simple as that. What's that got to do with an mp quitting because he didn't even know what he was campaigning for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 What should have the question on the ballot paper have been? 6 varying degrees of brexit or remain, that could only have split the leave vote and ensured remain won. That might have been attractive to the remainers but it wouldn't have been democratic. Also the people arguing we should have this complex question are the same ones who are telling us we're (not them obviously) are not intelligent enough to make a decision. It's an argument that makes no sense unless you're trying to cancel the referendum result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davieG Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 19 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said: It's difficult, isn't it? I quite like the idea of anarchic donkeys roaming wild across the British countryside. But you just know that control will be taken by some charismatic donkey with a little tash or some ruthless, calculating donkey given to riding horses bare-chested across the Russian steppes. The über-donkey will lead its donkey followers to invade other farms and it'll all end badly. We're still better off with donkeys in parliament and on the bench - the least bad option. I've heard there's some other beast trying to get in on the action Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxinexile Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 I'm still completely bemused by the bile spouted by the right-wing press and the general throwing of toys out of the pram by Leavers yesterday at the High Court ruling. Wasn't one of the main arguments of leaving the EU that decision-making would be handed back to Westminster? And yet yesterday, we had a decision made in a British court about a British issue that had absolutely no involvement or influence of EU law. And the ruling...let Westminster make the decision regarding the terms of Brexit. This was democracy, this was doing exactly what Leavers wanted. So why the sudden outpouring of grief and tantrums that this was undemocratic? It's what was asked for. Or am I completely missing something? It's food for thought for Leavers, and I would echo the old saying, "Be careful what you wish for, it might come back to haunt you"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Facecloth Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 11 minutes ago, Webbo said: What should have the question on the ballot paper have been? 6 varying degrees of brexit or remain, that could only have split the leave vote and ensured remain won. That might have been attractive to the remainers but it wouldn't have been democratic. Also the people arguing we should have this complex question are the same ones who are telling us we're (not them obviously) are not intelligent enough to make a decision. It's an argument that makes no sense unless you're trying to cancel the referendum result. I think you could have asked a second question on the same ballot paper. Just put "If you voted leave, on which terms would you like to leave." And then offer some options. Obviously any remain voters marking that section would either have it ignored or it'd be classed as a spoilt ballot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 Just now, foxinexile said: I'm still completely bemused by the bile spouted by the right-wing press and the general throwing of toys out of the pram by Leavers yesterday at the High Court ruling. Wasn't one of the main arguments of leaving the EU that decision-making would be handed back to Westminster? And yet yesterday, we had a decision made in a British court about a British issue that had absolutely no involvement or influence of EU law. And the ruling...let Westminster make the decision regarding the terms of Brexit. This was democracy, this was doing exactly what Leavers wanted. So why the sudden outpouring of grief and tantrums that this was undemocratic? It's what was asked for. Or am I completely missing something? It's food for thought for Leavers, and I would echo the old saying, "Be careful what you wish for, it might come back to haunt you"... Brexit is about taking decisions away from unelected people, which these judges are. Parliament, our enlightened overlords who we elect to make decisions on our behalf, had a debate on giving us a referendum and voted for it 6 to 1. All the govt literature said it would obey the outcome. This is blatantly an attempt to derail the vote. That's why people are angry. There will be plenty of parliamentary oversight. The great repeal bill will be debated in the house with plenty of opportunities to make amendments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 1 minute ago, Facecloth said: I think you could have asked a second question on the same ballot paper. Just put "If you voted leave, on which terms would you like to leave." And then offer some options. Obviously any remain voters marking that section would either have it ignored or it'd be classed as a spoilt ballot. So you don't trust our MPs ,who we elect to make these complicated decisions for us because we're not as clever them, to do what's best? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Facecloth Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 2 minutes ago, Webbo said: So you don't trust our MPs ,who we elect to make these complicated decisions for us because we're not as clever them, to do what's best? Who said I don't trust them? I don't believe they can give all you leavers what you want because there's no way of knowing what you all want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Guvnor Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 23 minutes ago, Facecloth said: What's that got to do with an mp quitting because he didn't even know what he was campaigning for? Even an MP who campaigned for leave has quit because he doesn't like the type of leave it looks like we're getting. The point I was trying to make was essentially negotiations will be centred around trade deals and free movement of EU residents and it will ultimately be in the hands of Brussels what they allow us to have, it would be political suicide for the gov't to accept any trade deals which allowed free movement of people so I can't see this happening. Therefore how this MP expected us to stay in the Single Market is baffling to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxinexile Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 3 minutes ago, Webbo said: Brexit is about taking decisions away from unelected people, which these judges are. Parliament, our enlightened overlords who we elect to make decisions on our behalf, had a debate on giving us a referendum and voted for it 6 to 1. Agreed, and I have no doubt that Brexit will not be derailed and will happen. But if you look at the referendum question it asked if we should leave the EU, that is all. There was no mention regarding the terms of our departure and it is absolutely right that this should be debated and approved by parliament. You are not talking about a decision that affects "just" 17.4 million people. You are talking about a decision that affects near 70 million, and if that is not something that should go through Parliament due to its potential effects on all British citizens, then god help us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 1 minute ago, Facecloth said: Who said I don't trust them? I don't believe they can give all you leavers what you want because there's no way of knowing what you all want. So let the govt get on with it and if they make a bad deal we'll vote against them at the next election. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Facecloth Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 Just now, The Guvnor said: Even an MP who campaigned for leave has quit because he doesn't like the type of leave it looks like we're getting. The point I was trying to make was essentially negotiations will be centred around trade deals and free movement of EU residents and it will ultimately be in the hands of Brussels what they allow us to have, it would be political suicide for the gov't to accept any trade deals which allowed free movement of people so I can't see this happening. Therefore how this MP expected us to stay in the Single Market is baffling to be honest. So even as an MP, and campaigner, he didn't understand what he was asking people to vote for. Wonderful isn't it. How we expect the vast majority of voters to understand what they're voting for when the ones asking them to vote for it don't understand it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Guvnor Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 Just now, Facecloth said: So even as an MP, and campaigner, he didn't understand what he was asking people to vote for. Wonderful isn't it. How we expect the vast majority of voters to understand what they're voting for when the ones asking them to vote for it don't understand it. And we are back to the beginning all the leave voters hadn't a clue what they were voting for, have you read previous posts as for me it was crystal clear maybe he was just a bit thick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Realist Guy In The Room Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 Personally I think the ballot paper should have had the leave or remain question, and a question about remaining in the single market. It should have been made clear months before that this would form the basis of if we left, on what terms and it would have made people actually look into what the single market is and what the ramifications of leaving it would be. All this bullshit the government are coming out with about not giving away your negotiating strategy is ridiculous. The one question that would satisfy most people (and business) is are we remaining in the single market. By letting that be known, you would not affect your negotiating on the fine details at all but people would then know that freedom of goods, services and people would remain. I really can see only one outcome to this mess and that is a snap election. Theresa May's plan of shuffling it through quickly behind closed doors is gone so it has to go to parliament and seeing as neither Labour nor the Tories are united on the issue, manifesto will have to be drawn up on how we leave and the people will have to vote on who carries it out. Parliment will never agree a strategy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Facecloth Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 Just now, The Guvnor said: And we are back to the beginning all the leave voters hadn't a clue what they were voting for, have you read previous posts as for me it was crystal clear maybe he was just a bit thick. They didn't know in the sense they voted for varying reasons and none of which will match the end result. I don't think he's thick, he just has a vision of brexit that is far removed from what we'll get, as did many voters. You were clear why you voted for what you did but I don't think it was made clear to you what you actually voted for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Realist Guy In The Room Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 4 minutes ago, The Guvnor said: And we are back to the beginning all the leave voters hadn't a clue what they were voting for, have you read previous posts as for me it was crystal clear maybe he was just a bit thick. Neither did a hell of a lot of remain voters. Social media was full of comments like, 'I feel European so I want to remain.' The European Union and the continent of Europe are not the same thing and we'd be no less European by not being in the European Union. Online or in the pub, there was n discussion or debate at all about the merits of wanting to vote to leave. If you voted leave, you were unintelligent, racist or both. This just isn't the case. Yes, there were some who fell into that bracket, but that was the case for both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 20 minutes ago, Webbo said: Brexit is about taking decisions away from unelected people, which these judges are. Parliament, our enlightened overlords who we elect to make decisions on our behalf, had a debate on giving us a referendum and voted for it 6 to 1. All the govt literature said it would obey the outcome. This is blatantly an attempt to derail the vote. That's why people are angry. There will be plenty of parliamentary oversight. The great repeal bill will be debated in the house with plenty of opportunities to make amendments. All the judges have done is to interpret UK law; that's their job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 3 minutes ago, Buce said: All the judges have done is to interpret UK law; that's their job. And surprise surprise they've sided with the elite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 2 minutes ago, Webbo said: And surprise surprise they've sided with the elite. No, they have interpreted the law; if they have erred, the appeal will say so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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