The Doctor Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 16 minutes ago, Webbo said: And surprise surprise they've sided with the elite. If you consider parliament to be the elite. Of course that'd make a mockery of the claim about wanting sovreignity back, but hey ho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ousefox Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 44 minutes ago, Webbo said: Brexit is about taking decisions away from unelected people, which these judges are. Parliament, our enlightened overlords who we elect to make decisions on our behalf, had a debate on giving us a referendum and voted for it 6 to 1. All the govt literature said it would obey the outcome. This is blatantly an attempt to derail the vote. That's why people are angry. There will be plenty of parliamentary oversight. The great repeal bill will be debated in the house with plenty of opportunities to make amendments. I don't don't think Brexit has anything to do with taking away power from an independent judiciary who play a vital part in our democracy. I would encourage you to read the article I posted earlier for some more understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 3 minutes ago, The Doctor said: If you consider parliament to be the elite. Of course that'd make a mockery of the claim about wanting sovreignity back, but hey ho. Parliament didn't bring the case, it was the wife of a billionaire. hey ho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 1 minute ago, Watson said: I don't don't think Brexit has anything to do with taking away power from an independent judiciary who play a vital part in our democracy. I would encourage you to read the article I posted earlier for some more understanding. I have no argument with an independent judiciary, I just doubt their independence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxinexile Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 22 minutes ago, Webbo said: And surprise surprise they've sided with the elite. And I suppose if the High Court had ruled the way you'd wanted, you'd be telling those who voted Remain to stop moaning and accept it? This is the democracy a lot of Leave voted for. Accept it and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Doctor Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 1 minute ago, Webbo said: Parliament didn't bring the case, it was the wife of a billionaire. And the courts ruling has put parliament above government. ultimately parliament passed an advisory referendum on whether the public wanted to leave - it's now on them to take that advice and decide how we leave and what we look for in leaving, not for May and co to ride roughshod over our democracy. Or to borrow a line, you lost, get over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 48 minutes ago, Webbo said: Brexit is about taking decisions away from unelected people, which these judges are. Parliament, our enlightened overlords who we elect to make decisions on our behalf, had a debate on giving us a referendum and voted for it 6 to 1. All the govt literature said it would obey the outcome. This is blatantly an attempt to derail the vote. That's why people are angry. There will be plenty of parliamentary oversight. The great repeal bill will be debated in the house with plenty of opportunities to make amendments. The only decision that the "unelected" judges took was that our elected, sovereign British parliament should take the decision over the triggering of Article 50. Brexit was partly about decisions being taken by British, not EU courts, too, wasn't it? If you want to get rid of the independent judiciary and the rule of law in favour of democratic votes on all laws, I hereby vote for you to be banged up for life just for being Webbo. I honestly think you're being paranoid if you reckon that Parliament will simply refuse to implement Brexit. That would rightly be viewed as a democratic outrage and would generate contempt for democracy - and justified social disorder (as opposed to the completely unjustified, anti-democratic reaction to this ruling). The Govt will still be able to call for Article 50 to be triggered, they'll just have to present Parliament (our sovereign democratic British institution) with a broad idea of their aims and priorities. Provided the Govt present a half-reasonable case, I'm sure the vote will be passed to trigger Article 50 - and the UK Parliament cannot legislate for any particular outcome from negotiations. At most, they might be able to vote to reject the negotiated package at the end of 2 years....but we would then automatically end up outside the EU & Single Market, anyway (unless the EU agreed to extend the negotiations - highly unlikely, I'd imagine). The Govt has a popular democratic mandate to leave the EU, but not in any particular way. It still needs to justify its broad plans to our main democratic British institution, which is entitled to make its preferences heard, but not to annul the referendum result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 Just now, foxinexile said: And I suppose if the High Court had ruled the way you'd wanted, you'd be telling those who voted Remain to stop moaning and accept it? This is the democracy a lot of Leave voted for. Accept it and move on. It should never have got to the High Court. The referendum was in the manifesto, parliament voted in favour of the referendum, there was a decisive vote to leave. There's no case to take it to court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxinexile Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 4 minutes ago, Webbo said: It should never have got to the High Court. The referendum was in the manifesto, parliament voted in favour of the referendum, there was a decisive vote to leave. There's no case to take it to court. But the High Court haven't ruled on whether the referendum vote now needs parliamentary approval to be implemented. We're talking about parliament having approval on the terms of the referendum result and our exit from the EU. A huge difference to what you seem to believe happened on Thursday? Brexit will stand, it's the terms that need to be approved by parliament and rightly so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 7 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said: The only decision that the "unelected" judges took was that our elected, sovereign British parliament should take the decision over the triggering of Article 50. Brexit was partly about decisions being taken by British, not EU courts, too, wasn't it? If you want to get rid of the independent judiciary and the rule of law in favour of democratic votes on all laws, I hereby vote for you to be banged up for life just for being Webbo. I honestly think you're being paranoid if you reckon that Parliament will simply refuse to implement Brexit. That would rightly be viewed as a democratic outrage and would generate contempt for democracy - and justified social disorder (as opposed to the completely unjustified, anti-democratic reaction to this ruling). The Govt will still be able to call for Article 50 to be triggered, they'll just have to present Parliament (our sovereign democratic British institution) with a broad idea of their aims and priorities. Provided the Govt present a half-reasonable case, I'm sure the vote will be passed to trigger Article 50 - and the UK Parliament cannot legislate for any particular outcome from negotiations. At most, they might be able to vote to reject the negotiated package at the end of 2 years....but we would then automatically end up outside the EU & Single Market, anyway (unless the EU agreed to extend the negotiations - highly unlikely, I'd imagine). The Govt has a popular democratic mandate to leave the EU, but not in any particular way. It still needs to justify its broad plans to our main democratic British institution, which is entitled to make its preferences heard, but not to annul the referendum result. That's the official version. Now lets discuss the reality. If it was always going to pass why take it to court? In reality the people who brought this want to force an act of parliament which will be peppered by amendments so that Brexit will be so watered down that it's pointless leaving. Remain MPs and the HoLs will endlessly drag this out in the hope that we eventually give up or that there's a general election and a new govt will reverse brexit altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Doctor Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 1 minute ago, Webbo said: That's the official version. Now lets discuss the reality. If it was always going to pass why take it to court? In reality the people who brought this want to force an act of parliament which will be peppered by amendments so that Brexit will be so watered down that it's pointless leaving. Remain MPs and the HoLs will endlessly drag this out in the hope that we eventually give up or that there's a general election and a new govt will reverse brexit altogether. Nonsensical paranoia - with the way the votes were spread most constituencies were a leave majority; mps won't put their careers in jeopardy by overruling their consituents. It was taken to court to ensure this was done properly and with respect for British law, rather than an unelected executive making decisions for us - I thought that's what you were against back in June? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 2 minutes ago, The Doctor said: Nonsensical paranoia - with the way the votes were spread most constituencies were a leave majority; mps won't put their careers in jeopardy by overruling their consituents. It was taken to court to ensure this was done properly and with respect for British law, rather than an unelected executive making decisions for us - I thought that's what you were against back in June? I think you'll find that the govt was elected. They're not making decisions for us, we already made the decision on June the 23rd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 10 minutes ago, Webbo said: That's the official version. Now lets discuss the reality. If it was always going to pass why take it to court? In reality the people who brought this want to force an act of parliament which will be peppered by amendments so that Brexit will be so watered down that it's pointless leaving. Remain MPs and the HoLs will endlessly drag this out in the hope that we eventually give up or that there's a general election and a new govt will reverse brexit altogether. And people say I'm a little paranoid when I say Trump and the Repubs will pack the U.S. Supreme Court with conservative judges and work to repeal or restrict important equality judgments for women and minorities that have been reached in the past... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 1 minute ago, leicsmac said: And people say I'm a little paranoid when I say Trump and the Repubs will pack the U.S. Supreme Court with conservative judges and work to repeal or restrict important equality judgments for women and minorities that have been reached in the past... Good effort shoe horning that in but I don't see the connection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Doctor Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 11 minutes ago, Webbo said: I think you'll find that the govt was elected. They're not making decisions for us, we already made the decision on June the 23rd. Not really - Cameron's conservatives were elected by us; May was appointed by their mps. We didn't make the decision though - you made the decision to leave, at no point were we consulted on what sort of departure was wanted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 8 minutes ago, Webbo said: Good effort shoe horning that in but I don't see the connection. Ha! Sorry Webbo, low blow. The way I see it, we're both worrying about two unpleasant (from our own points of view) outcomes of political process that have about an equal chance of happening. I think that is the connection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 Just now, The Doctor said: Not really - Cameron's conservatives were elected by us; May was appointed by their mps. We didn't make the decision though - you made the decision to leave, at no point were we consulted on what sort of departure was wanted The remainers are the ones who tell us we're not intelligent enough to decide a simple in or out, now you're saying we should have a referendum on what type of Brexit we want? Let's be honest here, before the judgement we were definitely leaving now remainers get a second bite of the cherry and that's what this is all about . Lets not pretend this is about the rule of law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 2 minutes ago, leicsmac said: Ha! Sorry Webbo, low blow. The way I see it, we're both worrying about two unpleasant (from our own points of view) outcomes of political process that have about an equal chance of happening. I think that is the connection. I didn't mind . I was in 2 minds whether to put a in but it could've been taken the wrong way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Doctor Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 2 hours ago, Webbo said: The remainers are the ones who tell us we're not intelligent enough to decide a simple in or out, now you're saying we should have a referendum on what type of Brexit we want? Let's be honest here, before the judgement we were definitely leaving now remainers get a second bite of the cherry and that's what this is all about . Lets not pretend this is about the rule of law. Didn't say I wanted a referendum on what sort of brexit we should aim for. It's a too complex question to boil down to a couple of options - which is why it shouldn't have been put to the public to start with. What I'm saying is that parliamentary matters should be decided on by parliament, not by royal prerogative. And that second paragraph is bollocks - it's all about rule of law and ensuring parliamentary sovreignity - your paranoia is completely unfounded. Still, I'm hoping this gets taken all the way to the European courts - Europe upholds the original verdict and confirms that parliament is sovreign; Brexiteers whinge. Europe overrules our courts, denies British ruling over British laws and denies us parliamentary sovreignity; Brexiteers celebrate. Sometimes truth genuinely is stranger than fiction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ithuriel Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 So an exit from the European Union should never have been put to the British people to vote upon, The Doctor showing his true colours maybe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Realist Guy In The Room Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 4 hours ago, Webbo said: Parliament didn't bring the case, it was the wife of a billionaire. hey ho Who voted to leave the EU incidentally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaelicFox Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 Well all quiet on here I see Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 8 minutes ago, Realist Guy In The Room said: Who voted to leave the EU incidentally. We don't know what anyone actually voted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 10 minutes ago, Realist Guy In The Room said: Who voted to leave the EU incidentally. Who said that the vote to leave made her physically sick, so I don't think she did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 5 November 2016 Share Posted 5 November 2016 5 minutes ago, Strokes said: We don't know what anyone actually voted. Oh, I dunno. I reckon I could hazard a pretty good guess what you and Webbo voted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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