Brexit Discussion Thread.

[bovril]

20 minutes ago, Strokes said:

 

They might be related but they aren't the cause for hate.

Indeed.

My brother in law has been verbally abused on the train for speaking a foreign language and I have some friends who have experienced similarly unpleasant experiences.

But it's wrong to blame it on Brexit as a) it risks dividing the country further and b) diminishes the responsibility of those culpable. The guy in Harlow wasn't killed because of Brexit. He was killed because of blind thuggery brought about by poverty and poor education. I grew up in a town like Harlow. Hatred of the 'other' has always been there, whether it's foreigners or politicians in London. 

For what it's worth I don't think leaving the Eu will necessarily be disastrous, but the UK is incredibly divided at the moment and I imagine it'll get worse.

[foxinexile]

A couple of weeks ago, in a bar in Leeds, whilst waiting to be served, I got called a "****ing Pole" and  told to "**** off back to my own country" (despite being born in Leicester!). I could use Brexit as the scapegoat, however that would be giving credit to the mindless idiot and assuming he had enough brain cells to actually vote in the first place. A lot of scum will use Brexit as justification to indulge themselves in this kind of behaviour but to lay the blame at the referendum result is ridiculous. Jo Cox's killer was not a Leave voter, he was a deranged lunatic; the idiot who abused me was just that...an idiot. To apportion blame to Brexit and give these "people" a vehicle to justify their behaviour is insulting to the vast, vast majority who voted according to their beliefs and principles. I was, and still am, very firm in my belief that the UK should remain in the EU, however to try and marry these incidents of racism, xenophobia and, sadly, murder, with the referendum is a dangerous game. 

[Spudulike]

Brexcuse. There's a lot of it about.

[Foxxed]

When the EDL, Britain First, the BNP and our various other groups screamed Brexit support.

 

When their supporters raised a fist in the air on the outcome of the vote.

 

When the bullet entered her brain.

 

When years of media demonisation of foreigners found its electoral voice.

 

When reports of deaths post-vote happened.

 

When the jump in hate crime was reported.

 

Will you forever deny the increase in hate crime is unrelated?

 

Will you forever deny there is cause and effect?

 

Will you forever deny honourable Brexiteering has been hijacked by those who use verbal and physical violence as their expression?

 

Will you forever deny the vote has been hijacked and now validates and encourages those groups, those ideas and those behaviours?

 

Now I am white and English. And to hell with the EU. The spectre that hangs over us all is now far, far more terrifying.

[Webbo]

27 minutes ago, Foxxed said:

When the EDL, Britain First, the BNP and our various other groups screamed Brexit support.

 

When their supporters raised a fist in the air on the outcome of the vote.

 

When the bullet entered her brain.

 

When years of media demonisation of foreigners found its electoral voice.

 

When reports of deaths post-vote happened.

 

When the jump in hate crime was reported.

 

Will you forever deny the increase in hate crime is unrelated?

 

Will you forever deny there is cause and effect?

 

Will you forever deny honourable Brexiteering has been hijacked by those who use verbal and physical violence as their expression?

 

Will you forever deny the vote has been hijacked and now validates and encourages those groups, those ideas and those behaviours?

 

Now I am white and English. And to hell with the EU. The spectre that hangs over us all is now far, far more terrifying.

Go and have a lie down mate, you'll feel better in the morning.

[leicsmac]

34 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Go and have a lie down mate, you'll feel better in the morning.

While much of what is said in that post applies better to the US than the Brexit vote (it's worse over there) and I'm sure the majority of Brexit voters don't align themselves with violent and aggressive xenophobes, dismissing legitimate fears isn't going to make them go away.

 

That the nationalist movements in many places have been emboldened to be more pro active on the aftermath of both votes is pretty well documented and isn't really in question. It may be an unintended consequence but it is still a consequence; one that isn't going to go away if ignored and needs to be talked about and dealt with appropriately.

 

Simply ignoring or absolving responsibility for whatever reason is disingenuous in the extreme.

[fuchsntf]

4 hours ago, Strokes said:

Blaming all that shit on brexit, is like attributing every antisemetic thing since Corbin got elected on the Labour Party.

They might be related but they aren't the cause for hate.

But its still Happened and is still there..This hate campaign against foreigners in UK is shamefull, disgusting.

Oh it happens also through other areas of Europe, but though my life is in Germany, It shames me that UK

My country of Birth that their Citizens, have no idea how hosts should be welcoming to guests.

 

That we still have Neanderthals in the UK society, who are so egoistic and have loser mentality, that they can only be aggressive to any other human being

That we even have hatefull nationalistic parties in this Day and age.

That so many British joe bloggs can be conned to join the mob, and blame foreigners  not our

Politicians and Shabby businessmen for our predicament.

 

That my country voted for Brexit, because they blamed foreign involvement instead of their own politicians and Government .Then ran away from

  the EU challenges, instead of staying in , to help to change and develope it, to correct

and fight to improve the EU.  Then to  run away as soon as it got difficult..

Monthly short term improvements, to make the folk feel better is poor politics, and has no point of value  for future developements.

 

 

 

[Webbo]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

While much of what is said in that post applies better to the US than the Brexit vote (it's worse over there) and I'm sure the majority of Brexit voters don't align themselves with violent and aggressive xenophobes, dismissing legitimate fears isn't going to make them go away.

 

That the nationalist movements in many places have been emboldened to be more pro active on the aftermath of both votes is pretty well documented and isn't really in question. It may be an unintended consequence but it is still a consequence; one that isn't going to go away if ignored and needs to be talked about and dealt with appropriately.

 

Simply ignoring or absolving responsibility for whatever reason is disingenuous in the extreme.

Personally I get a little offended at being accused of being partly responsible for murder because I didn't vote remain. There would still have been murders if we had voted to stay in but I wouldn't have dreamt of blaming remainers. 

[davieG]

Well I think it shows clearly that the world is not ready for an ever encompassing EU type organisation, maybe in 50 to 100 years it might be. The world is made up of too many ingrained tribes for it to work even the Scottish people see themselves as a different 'tribe' to the English so I see little hope for the medium term  stability in Europe as for the rest of the world well maybe 500 years might do it.

 

What is needed is a gradual homogenisation of peoples instead of this almost made rush to force it through, people are simply not ready to live  in each others pockets even after 200+ years you still have nationalised quarters in many large USA cities.

[leicsmac]

8 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Personally I get a little offended at being accused of being partly responsible for murder because I didn't vote remain. There would still have been murders if we had voted to stay in but I wouldn't have dreamt of blaming remainers. 

That's fair enough - it's like blaming the Muslim population at large for the atrocities of some of them (not that that stops some people).

 

However the current social situation is so far from rosy it can't be seen with the very best telescopes. Denial isn't going to help and I think perhaps it's up to everyone to do something about it, whatever way you voted.

[leicsmac]

14 minutes ago, davieG said:

Well I think it shows clearly that the world is not ready for an ever encompassing EU type organisation, maybe in 50 to 100 years it might be. The world is made up of too many ingrained tribes for it to work even the Scottish people see themselves as a different 'tribe' to the English so I see little hope for the medium term  stability in Europe as for the rest of the world well maybe 500 years might do it.

 

What is needed is a gradual homogenisation of peoples instead of this almost made rush to force it through, people are simply not ready to live  in each others pockets even after 200+ years you still have nationalised quarters in many large USA cities.

There's something in this. However there are certain issues that can only be sorted as one world and they won't necessarily wait for us to be ready to face them as one.

[Barky]

2 hours ago, leicsmac said:

While much of what is said in that post applies better to the US than the Brexit vote (it's worse over there) and I'm sure the majority of Brexit voters don't align themselves with violent and aggressive xenophobes, dismissing legitimate fears isn't going to make them go away.

 

That the nationalist movements in many places have been emboldened to be more pro active on the aftermath of both votes is pretty well documented and isn't really in question. It may be an unintended consequence but it is still a consequence; one that isn't going to go away if ignored and needs to be talked about and dealt with appropriately.

 

Simply ignoring or absolving responsibility for whatever reason is disingenuous in the extreme.

The rise of (the nasty kind of) nationalism should have been talked about and dealt with appropriately long before it got to this stage. Instead it wasn't just ignored but also ridiculed and that gave people an excuse - a flawed one but an excuse nonetheless - to become even more nationalistic. It's of little use to now start putting extra effort into condemning a few idiots doing stupid things, we'd be much better served acknowledging the root causes and addressing them. 

[Barky]

53 minutes ago, davieG said:

Well I think it shows clearly that the world is not ready for an ever encompassing EU type organisation, maybe in 50 to 100 years it might be. The world is made up of too many ingrained tribes for it to work even the Scottish people see themselves as a different 'tribe' to the English so I see little hope for the medium term  stability in Europe as for the rest of the world well maybe 500 years might do it.

 

What is needed is a gradual homogenisation of peoples instead of this almost made rush to force it through, people are simply not ready to live  in each others pockets even after 200+ years you still have nationalised quarters in many large USA cities.

I'm not sure people will ever be ready to be ruled by such remote leaders. Socially and economically the world is becoming, for the most part and for better or worse, happily globalised, but when it comes to politics I think people will always prefer most decisions to be made at a more local level.

[Foxxed]

22 hours ago, Webbo said:

Personally I get a little offended at being accused of being partly responsible for murder because I didn't vote remain. There would still have been murders if we had voted to stay in but I wouldn't have dreamt of blaming remainers. 

From what I read you saw the EU institutions as illegitimate. I don't agree. But fair enough.

 

And now the vote's blowback is a massive increase in and, most vitally, validation of far right behaviour in our society.

 

Those far right groups cheered on what they saw as "their" victory. It conferred upon them the idea the country is behind them. Whether it was true or not is irrelevant. It encouraged them.

 

This week's police reports on the struggles to deal with far right groups is only one example.

 

You and Brexiteers are only as responsible for this as I am for the Iraq war's dead.

 

And now the blood and bones of our nationality is teetering on becoming a byword for xenophobia, aggression and hatred.

To look away from this, to look away from this is favour of the promised riches and glory of Brexit, to see it simply as unfortunate, threatens what our nationality even means in the world.

[Webbo]

1 hour ago, Foxxed said:

From what I read you saw the EU institutions as illegitimate. I don't agree. But fair enough.

 

And now the vote's blowback is a massive increase in and, most vitally, validation of far right behaviour in our society.

 

Those far right groups cheered on what they saw as "their" victory. It conferred upon them the idea the country is behind them. Whether it was true or not is irrelevant. It encouraged them.

 

This week's police reports on the struggles to deal with far right groups is only one example.

 

You and Brexiteers are only as responsible for this as I am for the Iraq war's dead.

 

And now the blood and bones of our nationality is teetering on becoming a byword for xenophobia, aggression and hatred.

To look away from this, to look away from this is favour of the promised riches and glory of Brexit, to see it simply as unfortunate, threatens what our nationality even means in the world.

I never saw the EU as illegitimate. We voted to stay in now we've voted to leave.

 

It didn't encourage any far right groups that didn't exist before. All this talk about xenophobia and hate crime is just bollox propagated by sore losers.

[leicsmac]

17 minutes ago, Webbo said:

I never saw the EU as illegitimate. We voted to stay in now we've voted to leave.

 

It didn't encourage any far right groups that didn't exist before. All this talk about xenophobia and hate crime is just bollox propagated by sore losers.

So you're saying the increase in far right and nationalist activity driven by added boldness not only in Europe but also in the US due to current events is purely coincidental, fictional or both?

 

And they call me naive.

[Webbo]

Just now, leicsmac said:

So you're saying the increase in far right and nationalist activity driven by added boldness not only in Europe but also in the US due to current events is purely coincidental, fictional or both?

 

And they call me naive.

What increase in the far right? People are protesting against the EU for the same reason we voted out. They are imposing failed policies on us all and we have no way of voting them out of power.

 

Trump won in America because Clinton was a crap candidate standing for more of the same failed policies.

[C.J]

Just hurry up and trigger article 50 and get on with it!

[leicsmac]

16 minutes ago, Webbo said:

What increase in the far right? People are protesting against the EU for the same reason we voted out. They are imposing failed policies on us all and we have no way of voting them out of power.

 

Trump won in America because Clinton was a crap candidate standing for more of the same failed policies.

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/11/12/post-election-spate-hate-crimes-worse-than-post-911-experts-say/93681294/

 

http://time.com/4569129/racist-anti-semitic-incidents-donald-trump/

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37640982

 

There are so many more to pick from. Of course, they could all be erroneous or crimes against right wingers, I guess.

 

I agree with you on the reason Trump won, but again, unintended consequences are still consequences. And this is a consequence, believe it or not.

 

Nationalist movements (some of them extreme) are growing in activity and boldness.

[Sharpe's Fox]

37 minutes ago, Webbo said:

What increase in the far right? People are protesting against the EU for the same reason we voted out. They are imposing failed policies on us all and we have no way of voting them out of power.

 

Trump won in America because Clinton was a crap candidate standing for more of the same failed policies.

Don't know why you keep denying it, mate. I voted the same as you and would say it's worth it to take ownership of our own government again. Nobody is saying violence is your fault but denying hard evidence @leicsmac is providing you with just makes you look stupid and I'm pretty bored of the same argument rising it's head again and again.

[Webbo]

8 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

Don't know why you keep denying it, mate. I voted the same as you and would say it's worth it to take ownership of our own government again. Nobody is saying violence is your fault but denying hard evidence @leicsmac is providing you with just makes you look stupid and I'm pretty bored of the same argument rising it's head again and again.

 Telling someone to fvck off on twitter is a hate crime nowadays. A report by Hope not Hate about an increase in trolling after Jo Cox's death has been proven to be a fraud.

 

I've not heard anything about the EDL for at least 2 years, the BNP don't seem to be increasing their support. Where's the evidence that there is a rise in far right wing politics?

 

As for Mac's reports about hate crime in America Trump supporters seem to as likely victims as anyone else.

[leicsmac]

18 minutes ago, Webbo said:

 Telling someone to fvck off on twitter is a hate crime nowadays. A report by Hope not Hate about an increase in trolling after Jo Cox's death has been proven to be a fraud.

 

I've not heard anything about the EDL for at least 2 years, the BNP don't seem to be increasing their support. Where's the evidence that there is a rise in far right wing politics?

 

As for Mac's reports about hate crime in America Trump supporters seem to as likely victims as anyone else.

Yes, because the election of a man of a particular demographic who has negative views about various other ones is clearly going to result in an upsurge of trouble against his own supporters as opposed to the ones he has said he's not a fan of.

 

I suppose it could happen, but seriously?

 

I'm not going to spend any more of my time attempting to convince you though. You're welcome to your denial - I just hope that same denial doesn't lead to more serious trouble further down the road.

[Webbo]

11 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Yes, because the election of a man of a particular demographic who has negative views about various other ones is clearly going to result in an upsurge of trouble against his own supporters as opposed to the ones he has said he's not a fan of.

 

I suppose it could happen, but seriously?

 

I'm not going to spend any more of my time attempting to convince you though. You're welcome to your denial - I just hope that same denial doesn't lead to more serious trouble further down the road.

What kind of trouble? 

[leicsmac]

3 minutes ago, Webbo said:

What kind of trouble? 

The same kind of trouble that runaway nationalism normally ends in.

 

But perhaps it will be different this time. Hell, the 80s gave us the rise of a certain brand of aggressive nationalism and right wing governments in a lot of different places and that didn't end up REALLY badly (though you've got Stanislav Petrov to thank for that and some folk across Latin America might disagree) so maybe this era will be a little like that.

 

Let's just leave out those fvcking awful hairstyles, shall we?

[Alf Bentley]

On 12/29/2016 at 21:24, leicsmac said:

The same kind of trouble that runaway nationalism normally ends in.

 

But perhaps it will be different this time. Hell, the 80s gave us the rise of a certain brand of aggressive nationalism and right wing governments in a lot of different places and that didn't end up REALLY badly (though you've got Stanislav Petrov to thank for that and some folk across Latin America might disagree) so maybe this era will be a little like that.

 

Let's just leave out those fvcking awful hairstyles, shall we?

 

I wasn't even aware of the Petrov incident and had to Wiki it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislav_Petrov (I'd have been in the vineyards of Beaujolais, picking grapes, that's my excuse)

 

"On September 26, 1983, just three weeks after the Soviet military had shot down Korean Air Lines Flight 007, Petrov was the duty officer at the command center for the Oko nuclear early-warning system when the system reported that a missile had been launched from the United States, followed by up to five more. Petrov judged the reports to be a false alarm, and his decision is credited with having prevented an erroneous retaliatory nuclear attack on the United States and its NATO allies that could have resulted in large-scale nuclear war. Investigation later confirmed that the Soviet satellite warning system had indeed malfunctioned". 

 

Seriously scary stuff - and I didn't even know it had happened. Still, everything should be much more secure now that Donald & Vladimir are in charge....