Barky Posted 25 January 2017 Share Posted 25 January 2017 For the record I didn't actually say that. What I did was point out the widely available stats that show less educated people tended to vote for brexit. Still, the attempt to attribute fake quotes to people on top of the attempt to fabricate yougov poll results paints a picture of someone who knows his arguments are on very flimsy ground. So points to alf again by the looks of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bovril Posted 25 January 2017 Share Posted 25 January 2017 Why are Brexiters so touchy about being called uneducated, intolerant and of lower-income when they constantly refer to remainers as the educated, liberal elite? Make your minds up lads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voll Blau Posted 25 January 2017 Share Posted 25 January 2017 1 hour ago, Thracian said: Remainers want to Remain and will do all they can to bring that about whatever anyone says in public. And you're far too bright not to know that. Comment on what the more-than-a-million and multi-regional majority actually wanted from Brexit is entirely speculative along with any judgement about extremism/narrow-mindedness or anything else that might irritate those with a different but majority-opposed opinion. I'm genuinely loathe to say it but you seem exactly iike Sturgeon in that you'd seem to welcome another referendum and perhaps another and another until the Remain viewpoint won and then you'd never want another. Am I right? If not I'll happily withdraw the point but don't you see - and I say this as a disbeliever in democracy because even a majority can do the wrong thing - the stalling tactics are entirely designed to dilute the terms of our leaving the EU to the point where it hardly seems like we're leaving at all. Well, if it's good enough for Big Nige... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36306681 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 25 January 2017 Share Posted 25 January 2017 10 minutes ago, MattP said: Maybe they did think it was a vote loser, but in debates and interviews in front of millions of people, not just Gove, but Leadsom and Johnson (yes they were being pushed, but they still finally said it) also stated quite clearly that a vote to Leave meant leaving the single market, there was no obfuscation by the end, in addition to David Cameron and George Osborne, the only person I can think of who retained the belief we could stay in from leave was Dan Hannan and he never said we could during the actual campaign. Do you really think that would have been enough to swing it? 2% looks little but it's well over a million votes in reality because of the turnout, even if all those people missed all the leave campaigners saying we would leave the single market I doubt it would have been enough to turn the result, anyway, we'll never know. I can't remember another incident in politics where numerous people from across both sides of the argument explicity claimed something yet there can still be any doubt over it. Even more so when the European Union has now made it even clearer that the four freedoms still have to be adhered to if we wanted to stay in it. I do feel we are going around in circles on this and are never going to agree so I'll leave it at that. Maybe the best thing to do is call a General Election, May can go to the public then saying she needs the mandate to take us out because she wants to control immigration, uphold the supremacy of our courts and to do our own trade deals with the World, then the parties who want to give up all that to stay in the single market can fight for it and we'll see what the result is. Like you, I don't want to go round in circles but briefly.... - The voting paper didn't mention the single market. One bloke (Gove) clearly called for us to leave the single market, others disagreed, and it seems that 1 or 2 more leading figures were forced into agreeing with Gove late in the day. The campaign web site didn't call for us to leave the single market. It wasn't an issue that Vote Leave campaigned on. Cameron & Osborne had their own tactical reasons for claiming it was inevitable - to scare people into the Remain camp. The EU has its own tactical reasons for doing likewise - an initial negotiating stance (though I agree that they may be 100% serious....we'll probably never know as May has taken the decision to leave without seeking to negotiate this). To me that does not constitute a clear message or a mandate; to you, it obviously does. Shall we leave it there? - The result was 17.4m v 16.1m, so it would NOT have taken well over a million votes to switch. It would have taken about 635k votes out of 17.4m....a lot, but I stand by my opinion. We'll never know, though. - If May called a general election now on the programme you describe, I'm sure she'd win a landslide. It would be the most savage election campaign in history - Thracian's comment about "civil war" could easily come true, on a small scale at least. So, I obviously hope that she doesn't call one! The situation could be massively different in 18 months time if no good deal is on the horizon, the economy is suffering, Corbyn has been deposed etc. Rollercoaster ride ahead... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 25 January 2017 Share Posted 25 January 2017 5 minutes ago, Voll Blau said: Well, if it's good enough for Big Nige... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36306681 I saw that and thought that Pearson had entered the debate! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 25 January 2017 Share Posted 25 January 2017 8 minutes ago, Voll Blau said: Well, if it's good enough for Big Nige... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36306681 I still maintain on the night he wanted it to be 52-48 to remain (he probably doesn't now with Trump winning as he's got his own radio show and been signed by Fox News) as it would probably have led to 50 UKIP seats at the next General Election when you now look at the way the country has polarised from left and right to Brexit and Remain, a 20,000 Tory majority overturned in a Home Counties remain seat, looking likely Labour will lose a safe Leave seat in Copeland and possibly also in Stoke. 3 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said: Like you, I don't want to go round in circles but briefly.... - The voting paper didn't mention the single market. One bloke (Gove) clearly called for us to leave the single market, others disagreed, and it seems that 1 or 2 more leading figures were forced into agreeing with Gove late in the day. The campaign web site didn't call for us to leave the single market. It wasn't an issue that Vote Leave campaigned on. Cameron & Osborne had their own tactical reasons for claiming it was inevitable - to scare people into the Remain camp. The EU has its own tactical reasons for doing likewise - an initial negotiating stance (though I agree that they may be 100% serious....we'll probably never know as May has taken the decision to leave without seeking to negotiate this). To me that does not constitute a clear message or a mandate; to you, it obviously does. Shall we leave it there? - The result was 17.4m v 16.1m, so it would NOT have taken well over a million votes to switch. It would have taken about 635k votes out of 17.4m....a lot, but I stand by my opinion. We'll never know, though. - If May called a general election now on the programme you describe, I'm sure she'd win a landslide. It would be the most savage election campaign in history - Thracian's comment about "civil war" could easily come true, on a small scale at least. So, I obviously hope that she doesn't call one! The situation could be massively different in 18 months time if no good deal is on the horizon, the economy is suffering, Corbyn has been deposed etc. Rollercoaster ride ahead... I agree. If Copeland and Stoke are as hard as expected for Labour she might just be tempted to see if she can do it as well in some way, it would make things a lot easier for her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted 25 January 2017 Share Posted 25 January 2017 2 hours ago, Alf Bentley said: Like you, I don't want to go round in circles but briefly.... - The voting paper didn't mention the single market. One bloke (Gove) clearly called for us to leave the single market, others disagreed, and it seems that 1 or 2 more leading figures were forced into agreeing with Gove late in the day. The campaign web site didn't call for us to leave the single market. It wasn't an issue that Vote Leave campaigned on. Cameron & Osborne had their own tactical reasons for claiming it was inevitable - to scare people into the Remain camp. The EU has its own tactical reasons for doing likewise - an initial negotiating stance (though I agree that they may be 100% serious....we'll probably never know as May has taken the decision to leave without seeking to negotiate this). To me that does not constitute a clear message or a mandate; to you, it obviously does. Shall we leave it there? - The result was 17.4m v 16.1m, so it would NOT have taken well over a million votes to switch. It would have taken about 635k votes out of 17.4m....a lot, but I stand by my opinion. We'll never know, though. - If May called a general election now on the programme you describe, I'm sure she'd win a landslide. It would be the most savage election campaign in history - Thracian's comment about "civil war" could easily come true, on a small scale at least. So, I obviously hope that she doesn't call one! The situation could be massively different in 18 months time if no good deal is on the horizon, the economy is suffering, Corbyn has been deposed etc. Rollercoaster ride ahead... The £9M leaflet that we all got through the post said leaving the EU meant leaving the single market. That was obviously a waste of money given how many people seem to now think it is an outrage that it doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innovindil Posted 25 January 2017 Share Posted 25 January 2017 7 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said: The £9M leaflet that we all got through the post said leaving the EU meant leaving the single market. That was obviously a waste of money given how many people seem to now think it is an outrage that it doesn't. Ssssssshhh that was all "advisory" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 25 January 2017 Share Posted 25 January 2017 27 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said: The £9M leaflet that we all got through the post said leaving the EU meant leaving the single market. That was obviously a waste of money given how many people seem to now think it is an outrage that it doesn't. I presume you mean the Government pro-Remain leaflet, Jon? This is it, isn't it? https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/515068/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk.pdf If so, it doesn't say that leaving the EU means leaving the single market. It clearly implies that difficult choices would arise (single market v. freedom of movement etc), that's all: - "If the UK voted to leave the EU, the resulting economic shock would put pressure on the value of the pound, which would risk higher prices of some household goods and damage living standards. Losing our full access to the EU’s Single Market would make exporting to Europe harder and increase costs". (Purely hypothetical, not categorical....mind you, the first sentence is looking pretty prescient!) - This bit states facts from which inferences can be drawn, but doesn't support your claim: "No other country has managed to secure significant access to the Single Market, without having to: follow EU rules over which they have no real say; pay into the EU; accept EU citizens living and working in their country. A more limited trade deal with the EU would give the UK less access to the Single Market than we have now – including for services, which make up almost 80% of the UK economy. For example, Canada’s deal with the EU will give limited access for services, it has so far been seven years in the making and is still not in force". It is simply untrue that leaving the EU means leaving the single market. Norway, Iceland & Liechtenstein are in the single market, but not the EU (via the EEA), likewise Switzerland via bilateral treaties (with exceptions). Leaving the Single Market is May's policy choice, not an inevitability. Some Remain campaigners may have suggested that leaving the EU inevitably meant leaving the Single Market completely. If so, that was untrue. But it is hardly reasonable for Brexit supporters to ridicule everything the Remain camp said as lies and "Project Fear" and then use those allegedly false claims as the basis for their own "mandate". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 25 January 2017 Share Posted 25 January 2017 4 hours ago, bovril said: Why are Brexiters so touchy about being called uneducated, intolerant and of lower-income when they constantly refer to remainers as the educated, liberal elite? Make your minds up lads. Don't think I've called them educated, nor elite just elitist., They're not very liberal either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barky Posted 25 January 2017 Share Posted 25 January 2017 1 hour ago, Webbo said: Don't think I've called them educated, nor elite just elitist., They're not very liberal either. Because they're all the same of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 25 January 2017 Share Posted 25 January 2017 2 minutes ago, Barky said: Because they're all the same of course. Just the same as brexiteers are all touchy,uneducated,intolerant and lower income. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barky Posted 25 January 2017 Share Posted 25 January 2017 Just now, Webbo said: Just the same as brexiteers are all touchy,uneducated,intolerant and lower income. Nobody really says that though, do they? People are entitled to point to the stats which show lower income and less educated people tended to vote for brexit because that's exactly what the stats show. There's all sorts of ways that can be interpreted of course. For instance you could point out that lots of older people voted for brexit and older people are less likely to have degrees. But the fact remains that poor people and less educated people tended to vote for brexit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 25 January 2017 Share Posted 25 January 2017 4 minutes ago, Barky said: Nobody really says that though, do they? People are entitled to point to the stats which show lower income and less educated people tended to vote for brexit because that's exactly what the stats show. There's all sorts of ways that can be interpreted of course. For instance you could point out that lots of older people voted for brexit and older people are less likely to have degrees. But the fact remains that poor people and less educated people tended to vote for brexit. And the fact that you keep saying that out entitles me to say you're elitist. We're all entitled a vote, rich, poor educated or not, young or old. That's democracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 25 January 2017 Share Posted 25 January 2017 6 minutes ago, Webbo said: And the fact that you keep saying that out entitles me to say you're elitist. Pointing out statistics/trends makes you elitist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 25 January 2017 Share Posted 25 January 2017 Just now, Emilio Lestavez said: Pointing out statistics/trends makes you elitist? The people who vote differently to me are uneducated? Why is relevant? Education and intelligence are not the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barky Posted 25 January 2017 Share Posted 25 January 2017 13 minutes ago, Webbo said: And the fact that you keep saying that out entitles me to say you're elitist. We're all entitled a vote, rich, poor educated or not, young or old. That's democracy. Elitist in every day life - absolutely not. Elitist when it comes to making important decisions - yeah, maybe. Depends how you define elitist really. If you asked would I prefer the more well informed people to take the important decisions I'd say, with some conditions, yes. So if wanting informed decision making makes me elitist then I suppose I must be. To allow for the most informed decision making is why we have a representative democracy after all isn't it? What if the government decided that home ownership had become too skewed towards older generations and put forth a referendum asking if land should be seized and redistributed, would you still stand back and say "that's democracy jack" when the movers turned up at your doorstep? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 25 January 2017 Share Posted 25 January 2017 1 minute ago, Webbo said: The people who vote differently to me are uneducated? Why is relevant? Education and intelligence are not the same thing. He said less educated. Not less intelligent. Is someone with a PhD not more educated than someone with a GCSEs? Doesn't necessarily make them more intelligent I'll grant you that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 25 January 2017 Share Posted 25 January 2017 For a start, I wouldn't cal you Jack. Did the govt put this policy in it's manifesto? Did we have a referendum on it? Quite obviously I believe in private property and wouldn't be happy about it, but it's a bit of a silly example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 25 January 2017 Share Posted 25 January 2017 2 minutes ago, Emilio Lestavez said: He said less educated. Not less intelligent. Is someone with a PhD not more educated than someone with a GCSEs? Doesn't necessarily make them more intelligent I'll grant you that. Then why mention it if you're not trying to imply superiority? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 25 January 2017 Share Posted 25 January 2017 Just now, Webbo said: Then why mention it if you're not trying to imply superiority? I'm not. You're the one with an inferiority complex it seems. Differentiating between education and intelligence and yet labelling Barky as elitist because of the mentioning of trends in education related to voting patterns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 25 January 2017 Share Posted 25 January 2017 Just now, Emilio Lestavez said: I'm not. You're the one with an inferiority complex it seems. Differentiating between education and intelligence and yet labelling Barky as elitist because of the mentioning of trends in education related to voting patterns. If this was a thread about education you might have a point. It's a thread about the EU referendum so why mention it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bovril Posted 25 January 2017 Share Posted 25 January 2017 23 minutes ago, Webbo said: The people who vote differently to me are uneducated? Why is relevant? Education and intelligence are not the same thing. I think you've kind of missed my point (which I admit was a bit of gentle Wednesday-morning trolling), which was that Brexiters use class and education just as much as Remainers, maybe even more so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 25 January 2017 Share Posted 25 January 2017 2 minutes ago, bovril said: I think you've kind of missed my point (which I admit was a bit of gentle Wednesday-morning trolling), which was that Brexiters use class and education just as much as Remainers, maybe even more so. I probably over reacted a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bovril Posted 25 January 2017 Share Posted 25 January 2017 26 minutes ago, Webbo said: I probably over reacted a bit. Like all you bloody Brexiters! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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