Brexit Discussion Thread.

[Countryfox]

What a year !!! Won't forget this one will we ....

[Sharpe's Fox]

Maybe this will spark new reform of the structure of the EU, one where the consensus of liberalism can thrive in a democratic system that properly consults its citizens rather than ignore them. All free from traditional British Eurosceptisism.

I doubt it, though, and the financial colossus than runs the thing will carry on abandoning the lives of people, the young and working class, that can't help them. I am glad to be rid of this neo-liberal, authoritative beast.

[Guest MattP]

What a year !!! Won't forget this one will we ....

 

Just a bit, independence and a league title, what the actual ****?

 

 

 

Question for the Labour voters who are passionate about remain - If I told you six months ago the party would retreat to the background of the campaign and you end up losing status of the European Union largely do to Labour areas strongly backing leave would have still gone for Corbyn as leader?

[Arriba Los Zorros]

If anyone that voted Leave can provide me with a good reason of the benefits, I'd be happy to listen and hear them.

 

For the time being, I'm ashamed to belong to a nation of small-minded bigots.

[Rincewind]

My Final Thoughts On The Referendum In A Haiku.

 

Europe Britain in or out

I voted Brexit

Overnight I am a racist.

[shen]

I think your analogies, need a little work

 

I hope that the effects are far reaching for everyone. There needed to be change. Is the Europe of today an endorsement of success? Is ever closer union actually a positive? Economically is Europe a success?

 

The sad truth is that Europe, although still important in the world, is not a place where I want my country to be joined at the hip with. We can hold hands for a while, but I also want to see who else is at the party ok?

 

I am not European. In fact I do not feel British, I am English! I believe that too many people can not wait to jump to the extremes of the argument once they find out what side you feel you belong in and vote for, one side calling the other racists, while they retort unpatriotic, its ridiculous.

 

I am very centred with my political views, I am happy to explain how I feel.

 

Why do you have such interest in the UK vote? (I am assuming that you are Danish)

 

I quite liked that analogy. Maybe I should've used tea instead of coffee though, given the topic

 

Why do I have an interest in the fifth largest economy in the world leaving the EU, which my country of birth (Belgium), my country of residence and paternal lineage (Denmark) and my country of maternal lineage (Germany) are all part of?

 

Like the UK and Sweden, Denmark chose not to be in the Eurozone and there have long been strong political and trade ties between Denmark and the UK. Since the war, this country has often looked at the UK for guidance and sided with them.

 

I grew up in Brussels, which was a fantastic experience. I loved growing up next to people from Italy, Spain, France, Germany, Netherlands, Ireland, England, Scotland etc. I was taught how a united Europe is the way forward and the way to ensure peace and prosperity. Of course there a challenges, massive challenges. There are 28 countries in the EU now, all with their own interests. Of course bureaucracy is a nightmare and progress is slow. It's terribly slow at national level, so just imagine how it is on an international scale.

 

But before pointing the finger and blaming the others, have a look inwards. I am embarrassed by the development of the political climate in Denmark since I moved here in 2003. Already then, there were political forces threatening to undermine the socio-economic fabric of one of the most succesful democracies in the world at the time (IMO). Now we're in real danger of destroying the solidaric system that has been in place for the best part of a century, all because so many people cannot look past their own belly button.

Our politicians (and I suspect those in the UK too) are completely disconnected from reality. It's all about populistic statements, deflection of responsibility and greed.

I just saw a clip of Farage now backtracking on the whole £350m a week to the EU (a very dodgy argument btw) going (mainly) to the NHS, schools etc. Funny how he says this after the vote huh? Where's the honesty in that?

[Guest MattP]

If anyone that voted Leave can provide me with a good reason of the benefits, I'd be happy to listen and hear them.

 

For the time being, I'm ashamed to belong to a nation of small-minded bigots.

 

The best one is all the idiots who think anyone who disagrees with them is a bigot have gone into meltdown.

[Finnaldo]

Maybe this will spark new reform of the structure of the EU, one where the consensus of liberalism can thrive in a democratic system that properly consults its citizens rather than ignore them. All free from traditional British Eurosceptisism.

I doubt it, though, and the financial colossus than runs the thing will carry on abandoning the lives of people, the young and working class, that can't help them. I am glad to be rid of this neo-liberal, authoritative beast.

 

You're a left-wing  Eurosceptic aren't you? What would you like to see going forward? (Honest question)

 

I lean the same way but voted remain last minute because I wasn't sure how the left could gain right now.

[Arriba Los Zorros]

The best one is all the idiots who think anyone who disagrees with them is a bigot have gone into meltdown.

Do you want to answer my question, MattP, and change my mind then? No, because you can't.

[EastAnglianFox]

If anyone that voted Leave can provide me with a good reason of the benefits, I'd be happy to listen and hear them.

For the time being, I'm ashamed to belong to a nation of small-minded bigots.

lol lol I applaud you taking the level of trolling to a solid 9/10

[purpleronnie]

I feel for the youngsters the most, 70+% voted to remain yet their parents and grand parents denied them.

[Voll Blau]

The whole 'pens' thing's looking a bit daft now isn't it...

[Arriba Los Zorros]

lol lol I applaud you taking the level of trolling to a solid 9/10

Not trolling if you believe in what you're saying. Why don't you answer my question and provide an actual benefit to Leaving?

[Guest MattP]

Do you want to answer my question, MattP, and change my mind then? No, because you can't.

 

I made a huge post in the EU thread about why I was voting to leave. I've copied and pasted it below.

 

Tomorrow I will vote to leave the European Union and in doing so I hope it will leave Britain in a place to connect with a wider World and disconnect itself from an undemocratic, bureaucratically ridden nightmare that has continually proved to be incapable of reform.

 

For me the main issue of the referendum has become whether you believe in the independent nation state or not, sovereignty to me has never been something that can be shared or pooled amongst nations and unlike the European Union, our democracy has stood the test of time from Magna Carta to Habeas Corpus.

 

We have often showed the world what a free people could achieve if they were allowed to govern themselves. The country you come from established trial by jury in the modern world, we set up the first free parliament, you elected governments that ensured no-one could be detained on the orders of the state without a fair trial, they established free education for all, they established the National Health Service and the responsibility they have on these things has always ensured Britain has elected different governments over time and never resorted into being a one party state. Something every vibrant democracy needs.

 

It didn’t affect us directly, but the worst behaviour of the European Union has come in its attitude towards Southern Europe, the ideology of the Eurozone Currency was forced onto countries despite people inside the project knowing it was going to have a devastating effect on the economies, youth unemployment is at over 50% in Greece, it has also reached appalling levels in Italy and Spain, it has created a lost generation of young people just so a European Central Bank could be created, an organisation which is staffed by bankers many of whom were involved in the 2008 economic crash and wants to be independent of national governments and national economic policies. When the people of Greece protested against the austerity that was forced on them, their elected representatives were dragged to Strasbourg and threatened with bankruptcy unless they changed their policies that the people had voted for.

 

I believe that the decisions which govern all our lives and the laws we must all obey should be decided by people we choose and who we can throw out if we want change. That’s a basic right every single person born in this land has had for hundreds of years and one we should fight until our deaths to keep instead of giving it away by putting a cross in a box under sinister threats from politicians who previously claimed we could thrive inside or outside the organisation.

 

Britain didn’t want Jean-Claude Juncker as the President of the European Commission, our Prime Minister didn’t want him, our elected MP’s didn’t want him, our elected MEP’s didn’t want him, and we voted against him and were defeated 26-2 with Hungary being our only ally, so we got him. That’s what you are voting for more of, people making decisions over your lives who you have never met, never voted for and often have no interest making decisions that is best for your country. We cannot get rid of him.

I wish Tony Benn had been alive today to campaign in this referendum as he wouldn’t have sold out on his principles unlike so many others, I’ll end this post on his wonderful question to the House of Commons at the time the whole project originally came about.

 

"The House will forgive me for quoting five democratic questions that I have developed during my life. If one meets a powerful person--Rupert Murdoch, perhaps, or Joe Stalin or Hitler--one can ask five questions:

What power do you have?

Where did you get it?

In whose interests do you exercise it?

To whom are you accountable?

And how can we get rid of you?

Anyone who cannot answer the last of those questions does not live in a democratic system."

 

Always, always make sure you live in the most directly accountable democratic system you can, because you really won't want the alternative.

 

 

I feel for the youngsters the most, 70+% voted to remain yet their parents and grand parents denied them.

 

Yougov's unofficial poll yesterday has young people (18-34) nowhere near that figure, it's a majority, but it's been massively overplayed.

[Babylon]

If anyone that voted Leave can provide me with a good reason of the benefits, I'd be happy to listen and hear them.

 

For the time being, I'm ashamed to belong to a nation of small-minded bigots.

I found this an interesting article on the single market. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/13/not-only-can-britain-can-leave-the-eu-and-have-access-to-the-sin/

[purpleronnie]

I made a huge post in the EU thread about why I was voting to leave. I've copied and pasted it below.

 

Tomorrow I will vote to leave the European Union and in doing so I hope it will leave Britain in a place to connect with a wider World and disconnect itself from an undemocratic, bureaucratically ridden nightmare that has continually proved to be incapable of reform.

 

For me the main issue of the referendum has become whether you believe in the independent nation state or not, sovereignty to me has never been something that can be shared or pooled amongst nations and unlike the European Union, our democracy has stood the test of time from Magna Carta to Habeas Corpus.

 

We have often showed the world what a free people could achieve if they were allowed to govern themselves. The country you come from established trial by jury in the modern world, we set up the first free parliament, you elected governments that ensured no-one could be detained on the orders of the state without a fair trial, they established free education for all, they established the National Health Service and the responsibility they have on these things has always ensured Britain has elected different governments over time and never resorted into being a one party state. Something every vibrant democracy needs.

 

It didn’t affect us directly, but the worst behaviour of the European Union has come in its attitude towards Southern Europe, the ideology of the Eurozone Currency was forced onto countries despite people inside the project knowing it was going to have a devastating effect on the economies, youth unemployment is at over 50% in Greece, it has also reached appalling levels in Italy and Spain, it has created a lost generation of young people just so a European Central Bank could be created, an organisation which is staffed by bankers many of whom were involved in the 2008 economic crash and wants to be independent of national governments and national economic policies. When the people of Greece protested against the austerity that was forced on them, their elected representatives were dragged to Strasbourg and threatened with bankruptcy unless they changed their policies that the people had voted for.

 

I believe that the decisions which govern all our lives and the laws we must all obey should be decided by people we choose and who we can throw out if we want change. That’s a basic right every single person born in this land has had for hundreds of years and one we should fight until our deaths to keep instead of giving it away by putting a cross in a box under sinister threats from politicians who previously claimed we could thrive inside or outside the organisation.

 

Britain didn’t want Jean-Claude Juncker as the President of the European Commission, our Prime Minister didn’t want him, our elected MP’s didn’t want him, our elected MEP’s didn’t want him, and we voted against him and were defeated 26-2 with Hungary being our only ally, so we got him. That’s what you are voting for more of, people making decisions over your lives who you have never met, never voted for and often have no interest making decisions that is best for your country. We cannot get rid of him.

I wish Tony Benn had been alive today to campaign in this referendum as he wouldn’t have sold out on his principles unlike so many others, I’ll end this post on his wonderful question to the House of Commons at the time the whole project originally came about.

 

"The House will forgive me for quoting five democratic questions that I have developed during my life. If one meets a powerful person--Rupert Murdoch, perhaps, or Joe Stalin or Hitler--one can ask five questions:

What power do you have?

Where did you get it?

In whose interests do you exercise it?

To whom are you accountable?

And how can we get rid of you?

Anyone who cannot answer the last of those questions does not live in a democratic system."

 

Always, always make sure you live in the most directly accountable democratic system you can, because you really won't want the alternative.

 

 

 

Yougov's unofficial poll yesterday has young people (18-34) nowhere near that figure, it's a majority, but it's been massively overplayed.

Yesterday?  What about today polls suggest over 70% of 18-24 voted remain.

[Dodgy Bob]

Farage

Admits the day after the referendum that one of the fundamental building blocks of his reason for wanting to leave is a lie unbelievable

[Leicester_Loyal]

If anyone that voted Leave can provide me with a good reason of the benefits, I'd be happy to listen and hear them.

 

For the time being, I'm ashamed to belong to a nation of small-minded bigots.

 

lol :scarf:

[GaelicFox]

Breaking news

No article 50 being invoked

We all just got worked Up over nothing !

I suspect Europe and the U.K. will be engaged in huge renegotiations and this will end up being a long drawn out re-mapping of the the whole EU project !

This could take a decade to sort out !

And at the end we will still be in the EU just with different rules to the game !

Markets all rallying a bit to the news about article 50

[Sharpe's Fox]

You're a left-wing  Eurosceptic aren't you? What would you like to see going forward? (Honest question)

 

I lean the same way but voted remain last minute because I wasn't sure how the left could gain right now.

Obviously I'd like to see a Labour government, run by Corbyn (unlikely) or a chosen candidate of his (Lisa Nandy, Clive Lewis etc.), and we can't have a true Labour government where the financial system that is rigged towards those who already have everything can be turned towards those who have very little when there is [was] a whole higher plane of government who want the opposite.

The main argument of the left leaning Remainers is that all hope is lost because the Tories can do what they want. They have a majority of 16. They really can't. Labour need to take the anti-establishment narrative and turn it towards anti-austerity politics now and Corbyn needs to be in charge short term to do that.

[EastAnglianFox]

Not fully understanding the whole playing on blaming parents/grand parents letting down there children.

So anybody that has children should automatically vote for the possible future of the kids? Are they not allowed to vote for what they actually would like to see in their own future?

[shen]

Which is fine, but people have been told time and time again that there will be no negotiation. Cameron gave it the big one about his "renegotiation", and it was basically a load of shit. On that basis, people voted out... if people had seen movement or a willingness to listen to the people (not just in this country, this is happening across Europe) then I doubt we'd be in this situation.

 

Really though? Foxestalk probably isn't an entirely accurate representation of voters' motivations, but that's not been mentioned too often. I can obviously understand the frustration with the EU in general, but why now? This could've happened 10, 20, 30 years ago. I'm not convinced that Brits 'have had enough' now. Surely this sentiment comes from elsewhere, somewhere that is maybe only tangetially related to the EU?

[yorkie1999]

Well, that was a waste of 30 years. Makes you wonder why we signed up in the first place, compared with what we've ended up with...

[ScouseFox]

shouldn't have let all the old racists vote an ruin the country an then die before the nice young people see any consequences

[Arriba Los Zorros]

I found this an interesting article on the single market. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/13/not-only-can-britain-can-leave-the-eu-and-have-access-to-the-sin/

 

 

I made a huge post in the EU thread about why I was voting to leave. I've copied and pasted it below.

 

Tomorrow I will vote to leave the European Union and in doing so I hope it will leave Britain in a place to connect with a wider World and disconnect itself from an undemocratic, bureaucratically ridden nightmare that has continually proved to be incapable of reform.

 

For me the main issue of the referendum has become whether you believe in the independent nation state or not, sovereignty to me has never been something that can be shared or pooled amongst nations and unlike the European Union, our democracy has stood the test of time from Magna Carta to Habeas Corpus.

 

We have often showed the world what a free people could achieve if they were allowed to govern themselves. The country you come from established trial by jury in the modern world, we set up the first free parliament, you elected governments that ensured no-one could be detained on the orders of the state without a fair trial, they established free education for all, they established the National Health Service and the responsibility they have on these things has always ensured Britain has elected different governments over time and never resorted into being a one party state. Something every vibrant democracy needs.

 

It didn’t affect us directly, but the worst behaviour of the European Union has come in its attitude towards Southern Europe, the ideology of the Eurozone Currency was forced onto countries despite people inside the project knowing it was going to have a devastating effect on the economies, youth unemployment is at over 50% in Greece, it has also reached appalling levels in Italy and Spain, it has created a lost generation of young people just so a European Central Bank could be created, an organisation which is staffed by bankers many of whom were involved in the 2008 economic crash and wants to be independent of national governments and national economic policies. When the people of Greece protested against the austerity that was forced on them, their elected representatives were dragged to Strasbourg and threatened with bankruptcy unless they changed their policies that the people had voted for.

 

I believe that the decisions which govern all our lives and the laws we must all obey should be decided by people we choose and who we can throw out if we want change. That’s a basic right every single person born in this land has had for hundreds of years and one we should fight until our deaths to keep instead of giving it away by putting a cross in a box under sinister threats from politicians who previously claimed we could thrive inside or outside the organisation.

 

Britain didn’t want Jean-Claude Juncker as the President of the European Commission, our Prime Minister didn’t want him, our elected MP’s didn’t want him, our elected MEP’s didn’t want him, and we voted against him and were defeated 26-2 with Hungary being our only ally, so we got him. That’s what you are voting for more of, people making decisions over your lives who you have never met, never voted for and often have no interest making decisions that is best for your country. We cannot get rid of him.

I wish Tony Benn had been alive today to campaign in this referendum as he wouldn’t have sold out on his principles unlike so many others, I’ll end this post on his wonderful question to the House of Commons at the time the whole project originally came about.

 

"The House will forgive me for quoting five democratic questions that I have developed during my life. If one meets a powerful person--Rupert Murdoch, perhaps, or Joe Stalin or Hitler--one can ask five questions:

What power do you have?

Where did you get it?

In whose interests do you exercise it?

To whom are you accountable?

And how can we get rid of you?

Anyone who cannot answer the last of those questions does not live in a democratic system."

 

Always, always make sure you live in the most directly accountable democratic system you can, because you really won't want the alternative.

 

 

 

Yougov's unofficial poll yesterday has young people (18-34) nowhere near that figure, it's a majority, but it's been massively overplayed.

Fair enough both, that's the input I was looking for. Appreciated.

I've read Matt's post, don't agree with lots of it, but its good to see some actual arguments and reasoning rather than closet xenophobia. And will read Babylon's article.

Sorry if my post was knee-jerk and offensive, but as I'm sure you can both appreciate this is an issue that sparks a lot of emotion and I strongly feel we've fooked up here.