Guest MattP Posted 24 June 2016 Share Posted 24 June 2016 Fair enough both, that's the input I was looking for. Appreciated. I've read Matt's post, don't agree with lots of it, but its good to see some actual arguments and reasoning rather than closet xenophobia. And will read Babylon's article. Sorry if my post was knee-jerk and offensive, but as I'm sure you can both appreciate this is an issue that sparks a lot of emotion and I strongly feel we've fooked up here. No problem, it's going to be important people from all sides work together now more than ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babylon Posted 24 June 2016 Share Posted 24 June 2016 Yesterday? What about today polls suggest over 70% of 18-24 voted remain. By yougov... the people who brought you "it will be a hung parliament" before the conservatives trounced everyone, and only last night said that the remain campaign would win with room to spare. I think we can put them in the bin now. It's quite clear that people exiting polls are either liars or that yougov aren't doing a big enough sample. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilworthfox Posted 24 June 2016 Share Posted 24 June 2016 I quite liked that analogy. Maybe I should've used tea instead of coffee though, given the topic Why do I have an interest in the fifth largest economy in the world leaving the EU, which my country of birth (Belgium), my country of residence and paternal lineage (Denmark) and my country of maternal lineage (Germany) are all part of? Like the UK and Sweden, Denmark chose not to be in the Eurozone and there have long been strong political and trade ties between Denmark and the UK. Since the war, this country has often looked at the UK for guidance and sided with them. I grew up in Brussels, which was a fantastic experience. I loved growing up next to people from Italy, Spain, France, Germany, Netherlands, Ireland, England, Scotland etc. I was taught how a united Europe is the way forward and the way to ensure peace and prosperity. Of course there a challenges, massive challenges. There are 28 countries in the EU now, all with their own interests. Of course bureaucracy is a nightmare and progress is slow. It's terribly slow at national level, so just imagine how it is on an international scale. But before pointing the finger and blaming the others, have a look inwards. I am embarrassed by the development of the political climate in Denmark since I moved here in 2003. Already then, there were political forces threatening to undermine the socio-economic fabric of one of the most succesful democracies in the world at the time (IMO). Now we're in real danger of destroying the solidaric system that has been in place for the best part of a century, all because so many people cannot look past their own belly button. Our politicians (and I suspect those in the UK too) are completely disconnected from reality. It's all about populistic statements, deflection of responsibility and greed. I just saw a clip of Farage now backtracking on the whole £350m a week to the EU (a very dodgy argument btw) going (mainly) to the NHS, schools etc. Funny how he says this after the vote huh? Where's the honesty in that? Great reply I feel a strong connection to Western Europe, I think we share a similar culture, through our languages, history, religious beliefs (although I am not religious) and many more things that if I thought about them would become obvious similarities. I want to tell everyone that I am not a racist bigot. I'm not sure why I may be branded as such, but on reflection I believe, it is by people who do not understand what the referendum was actually about. I am sure that there were people on both sides that were misinformed, and believed many things they heard to be fact, They may not have the foresight to challenge what they were told, but that is the same all over the world. The politicians do have a responsibility to show the electorate the facts in a responsible way, and both sides have failed to do this at times, which devalues the debate. There should have been a more enlightened debate, however many can not contemplate the different factors, even the experts. I think all of the EU member states (Sovereign nations) should pay close attention to why the British people decided to ignore the fear factor inserted from both sides, and to come out with a close, but ultimately Leave vote. For me I can concisely say that, British people: On the whole do not feel European. Have great confidence in our country to stand alone, our history I believe give us this belief. We do not like the perception that EU Bureaucrats are deciding our futures, especially when we do not know who they are, and we feel no connection to them. We do not like to see the economic haves (Germany), and have nots (Mediterranean countries), which has occurred since the Euro was imposed. feel that our parliament and courts should be sovereign over the EU. feel that our democracy is more important than our economy. do not understand why a trade agreement should become a political union, moving to ever closer union. who are less well off, and have less opportunities, do not see the benefits of being able to live and work abroad because in reality they are not better opportunities, and this is where the free movement of people then erodes their standard of living and economic migration becomes a major issue. I believe these to be the main points for Leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Horse's Mouth Posted 24 June 2016 Share Posted 24 June 2016 **** me, how has this happened? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beliall Posted 24 June 2016 Share Posted 24 June 2016 Who let these guys vote? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark_w Posted 24 June 2016 Share Posted 24 June 2016 Nigel Farage saying £350million to the NHS was a mistake , kind of wish I'd stayed up long enough to see that. Almost as good as good as his pseudo-resignation. Isn't it refreshing to have honest principled politicians for a change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babylon Posted 24 June 2016 Share Posted 24 June 2016 Fair enough both, that's the input I was looking for. Appreciated. I've read Matt's post, don't agree with lots of it, but its good to see some actual arguments and reasoning rather than closet xenophobia. And will read Babylon's article. Sorry if my post was knee-jerk and offensive, but as I'm sure you can both appreciate this is an issue that sparks a lot of emotion and I strongly feel we've fooked up here. For the record I voted Remain, on the basis I don't like change and wasn't arsed either way. But there are plenty of opportunities for this country outside of the EU, if you can wade through the bullshit on both sides there is some decent information out there that gives good reasoning either way. You're still relying on someone else's opinion though... as realistically there are so many variables that can alter both staying and going nobody has a clue. I liked that article as it draws on the past and things that have happened, rather than projections... which frankly, is someone taking a stab in the dark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 24 June 2016 Share Posted 24 June 2016 Nigel Farage saying £350million to the NHS was a mistake , kind of wish I'd stayed up long enough to see that. Almost as good as good as his pseudo-resignation. Isn't it refreshing to have honest principled politicians for a change. Why on earth would anyone believe a promise about public spending from someone who isn't even elected in the House of Commons let alone anywhere near the treasury?!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babylon Posted 24 June 2016 Share Posted 24 June 2016 Nigel Farage saying £350million to the NHS was a mistake , kind of wish I'd stayed up long enough to see that. Almost as good as good as his pseudo-resignation. Isn't it refreshing to have honest principled politicians for a change. That was debunked the second it appeared on the bus, much like us lurching into world war three if we left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark_w Posted 24 June 2016 Share Posted 24 June 2016 Why on earth would anyone believe a promise about public spending from someone who isn't even elected in the House of Commons let alone anywhere near the treasury?!! I have no idea Matt, but I suspect quite a few people did. I'm just amused that he's actually come out and said it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beliall Posted 24 June 2016 Share Posted 24 June 2016 A Leave voter has admitted on national television that he didn’t think his ballot would matter and is now shocked the UK will now leave the European Union. WTF? http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/eu-referendum-man_uk_576cf8e4e4b08d2c5638ee29?k8b1k6wvy7evzpvi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merging Cultures Posted 24 June 2016 Share Posted 24 June 2016 Breaking news No article 50 being invoked We all just got worked Up over nothing ! I suspect Europe and the U.K. will be engaged in huge renegotiations and this will end up being a long drawn out re-mapping of the the whole EU project ! This could take a decade to sort out ! And at the end we will still be in the EU just with different rules to the game ! Markets all rallying a bit to the news about article 50 Not yet at least. Cameron said he wont lead that process, but will let the next PM to do it. So, I assume it will happen sometime later this year, unless the EU seriously changes their stance on negotiations with us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaelicFox Posted 24 June 2016 Share Posted 24 June 2016 Boris confirms NO article 50 Ha ha ha LOL What a waste of time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purpleronnie Posted 24 June 2016 Share Posted 24 June 2016 A Leave voter has admitted on national television that he didn’t think his ballot would matter and is now shocked the UK will now leave the European Union. WTF? http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/eu-referendum-man_uk_576cf8e4e4b08d2c5638ee29?k8b1k6wvy7evzpvi I'm sure he;s not alone, did you see the welsh woman when asked why she was voting leave she said my nan told me to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaelicFox Posted 24 June 2016 Share Posted 24 June 2016 Not yet at least. Cameron said he wont lead that process, but will let the next PM to do it. So, I assume it will happen sometime later this year, unless the EU seriously changes their stance on negotiations with us. Boris just confirmed and gove did This will take years and years to sort and the speech by gove points to a renegotiations with EU We have been played by the tory cvnts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 24 June 2016 Share Posted 24 June 2016 The Nigel Farage story is quite incredible. His first by-election for a party advocating withdrawal from Europe he got 952 votes, beating Screaming Lord Sutch by 150 odd votes, just 21 years later that idea has just received over 17 million votes nationwide. Has a political party ever been formed and achieved it's main aim within 30 years? Boris confirms NO article 50Ha ha ha lolWhat a waste of time They've already announced the new Prime Minister will invoke it when elected, good decision as well, going gung ho into something as serious as this would be silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaelicFox Posted 24 June 2016 Share Posted 24 June 2016 The Nigel Farage story is quite incredible. His first by-election for a party advocating withdrawal from Europe he got 952 votes, beating Screaming Lord Sutch by 150 odd votes, just 21 years later that idea has just received over 17 million votes nationwide. Has a political party ever been formed and achieved it's main aim within 30 years? They've already announced the new Prime Minister will invoke it when elected, good decision as well, going gung ho into something as serious as this would be silly. No they haven't Boris just said ITS NOT BEING Envoked !!! Read Goves speech This will take A decade to sort Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnaldo Posted 24 June 2016 Share Posted 24 June 2016 Has a political party ever been formed and achieved it's main aim within 30 years? The National Socialist Party Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merging Cultures Posted 24 June 2016 Share Posted 24 June 2016 Boris just confirmed and gove did This will take years and years to sort and the speech by gove points to a renegotiations with EU We have been played by the tory cvnts Not quite. I think they were being very political and careful in their words. I was listening very carefully. It certainly will take years. There are negotiations that have to take place re exit as well. I don't see the EU renegotiating our terms, Juncker has already said that wont happen. I believe they were just confirming that they haven't activated it yet, and leaving this open ended, in case the EU does change their stance. But they were definitely being slimy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 24 June 2016 Share Posted 24 June 2016 Very promising speech from Jean-Claude Juncker on the BBC now for anyone worried about the future relationship with Europe, we hope to have them as a close partner in the future, we want an agreement, balance and dialogue in the interests of both sides.What a change from last week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark_w Posted 24 June 2016 Share Posted 24 June 2016 The National Socialist Party Didn't achieve their main aim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaelicFox Posted 24 June 2016 Share Posted 24 June 2016 Robert Kilroy Silk would have loved today Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 24 June 2016 Share Posted 24 June 2016 I have no idea Matt, but I suspect quite a few people did. I'm just amused that he's actually come out and said it. It wasn't his promise, he was part of leave.eu not vote leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnaldo Posted 24 June 2016 Share Posted 24 June 2016 Didn't achieve their main aim. Gave it a good run for it's money though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaelicFox Posted 24 June 2016 Share Posted 24 June 2016 Not quite. I think they were being very political and careful in their words. I was listening very carefully. It certainly will take years. There are negotiations that have to take place re exit as well. I don't see the EU renegotiating our terms, Juncker has already said that wont happen. I believe they were just confirming that they haven't activated it yet, and leaving this open ended, in case the EU does change their stance. But they were definitely being slimy. The people you mention won't be around in 5 years we will end up with a half way house Typical British establishment they want it all Envoked the article and let's get on with it ! A lot can happen in 10 years !!!! Gave it a good run for it's money though. So did IRA/SF !!! Scary put true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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