Brexit Discussion Thread.

[Countryfox]

Are leave voters excited about paying more for petrol by the way? Just curious because we buy our oil in dollars.

Turkeys. Christmas. Fools.

 

Why don't you just shut up.

[shen]

 

I believe that the UK is happy to have immigrants, but at a sensible controlable level, for social planning reasons receiving 300,000 people roughly every year has strained institutions such as the NHS, Schools, and Housing (The price of houses in the UK are astronomical, totally unaffordable for a single person).

 

It is felt that low skilled workers should not be allowed to arrive en mass as we already have many unemployed who could be working in the unskilled labour market.

 

A quick check shows that the majority of this immigration consists of Non-EU citizens. Of those EU immigrants, 60 % have a job lined up before they immigrate. Likely, these are not unskilled labour immigrants. So for the sake of argument let's say the total number of net EU immigrants per year stands at 130-150k, it would mean that between 52-60k (40 %) would potentially compete for the same jobs as British indigenous people. Are you suggesting that in a country with a 30+ mil work force and decreasing unemployment levels, that this is a major problem?

 

I understand this, I am unsure how we have had such an influx of EU nationals (mainly from the east) who have happily taken many unskilled jobs.

 

Are they though? See my response above. The UK has been able to control immigration from non-EU forever, yet it seems they still constitute the majority of immigrants. Is EU at fault for this?

 

Yes, salaries have not risen year on year, this is because the labour market has more people than jobs available, which is great for business as it keeps wages low, but not for people as their aspirations are dwindling due to more competition. 

 

Unemployment rates are down. Salaries not going up is likely a result of many, many factors, not simply because you get slightly more immigrants per year recently than you have done for over a decade.

 

I do not believe that there is a belief that they contribute more, but that they should be first in the queue in the country that they were born in, studied and whose ancestors created its culture and values, rather than an economic migrant.

 

Obviously I am problematizing the notion of nation states which I find are increasingly arbitrary and obsolete. If a Brit is a strain on society because he/she has chronic diseases or does not wish to work, living on benefits for the majority of his/her life, should this person be first in queue ahead of a productive foreigner? There's this sense of entitlement which is quite tangible and which is inherent here too.

 

I think that is always how it has been. Only in the EU have they tried to create a sense of European nationality from many countries, which many people in the UK do not agree with. Is it better or worse, I am unsure.

 

But is it necessarily right? Just because it's always been like this doesn't mean it's still the best way to do it. We often talk about meritocracy in football. When we discuss starting XIs for Leicester, we want to see those deserving of playing be selected, not those with fading reputations. Ironically, England in the Euros being a case in point. So why should it be different in this setting?

 

My answers to your questions, are just my perceptions of the state of the current feeling in the UK, not necessarily my opinions of how things actually are.

 

Cheers, I appreciate the time you put into engaging in this discussion.

[Nod.E]

Why don't you just shut up.

Will you take that as an answer when you start complaining about the results of precisely what you've just signed up to?

[Voll Blau]

I think this thread shows in a microism the deep divide between people in this matter and how it's extended out into the wider UK. I've got friends I've known for years screaming at each other via Facebook with all kinds of insults being tossed around, for goodness sake.

 

That is the real consequence of this vote - not the result either way, but the pretty clear and present fact that it shows in the harshest possible terms that the UK is deeply divided along a series of demographic lines. Us and them.

 

I hope that people do find a way to move past that, because a house divided cannot for long stand.

 

Amen.

 

It is now the duty of ALL of us to hold to account those who made promises on behalf of of the Leave campaign, and to make sure this decision works for  the benefit of everyone in this country.

[Grewks]

Well i'm a 22 year old recent graduate who voted leave, whilst the vast majority of graduates I have also spoken to, seemed to agree.

 

 

To be concerned about immigration isn't to be a racist. The comment about 'different colored faces' is quite frankly a disgrace and highly illogical. We are more likely to see more 'different colored' faces in fact.

 

 

This vote isn't a victory for the far right, it is a victory for democracy. 

[Grewks]

Are leave voters excited about paying more for petrol by the way? Just curious because we buy our oil in dollars.

Turkeys. Christmas. Fools.

 

 

The only fools today are those who voted to remain.

[Babylon]

I keep seeing that graph trotted out about most young people voting to remain and most old people voting to leave.

 

Firstly it's a guess based on a shabby poll proved to be incorrect. But lets pretend they are real for a moment... it's funny that they don't show the other information that came when they polled the younger age groups. The fact one poll suggest 75% wanted to Remain... and yet only 50% were going to bother voting.

 

I'm sorry lads and lasses, don't blame people of other generations for deciding your future. If your friends had all voted you could have made THE difference.

[foxes21]

this is old people's fault next time i'm not giving up my seat on the tube, they can stand up with the legs they walked to poll and voted out

[Nod.E]

The only fools today are those who voted to remain.

 

Good point pal. We'll see won't we. Well, we're already seeing, aren't we?

[SecretPro]

I like how the leave voters are supposedly all xenophobic, racist, council house fodder but the remain voters are the ones full of vitriol today in this thread and on social media. 

[ST20]

Good point pal. We'll see won't. Well, we're already seeing, aren't we?

 

How is everything on your pedestal?

[LanguedocFox]

Quite right.   Old people should not be allowed to vote on important matters like this ...    the sooner they are in their boxes the better.

 

 

I didn't say that. My points are (1) that the people Andrew Bridgen referred to clearly have no interest in the way the country is run - if they have never voted before; and (2) they will not, if they are in their 50s and 60s, have to live as long with the consequences of Brexit as younger people.

 

Personally, I believe that everyone should vote in every election.

[Countryfox]

Good point pal. We'll see won't we. Well, we're already seeing, aren't we?

 

Give that big brain of yours a rest Noddy.

[Babylon]

Are leave voters excited about paying more for petrol by the way? Just curious because we buy our oil in dollars.

Turkeys. Christmas. Fools.

You probably need to calm down, markets already back on the rise and so will currency. The initial shock always causes a large reaction, when everyone sees the sun is still shining, we've not suddenly got 3 million unemployed things will chill out.

 

[Nod.E]

Give that big brain of yours a rest Noddy.

When I condescend I don't proclaim to have a large brain. Rather I lament the small size of other brains.

[Babylon]

When I condescend I don't proclaim to have a large brain. Rather I lament the small size of other brains.

Well... you might have a larger brain, but you're acting like a child.

 

Do yourself a favour and walk away.

[ST20]

When I condescend I don't proclaim to have a large brain. Rather I lament the small size of other brains.

 

Ironically, grammar completely eludes you.

[Voll Blau]

What's really disappointed me has been both sides' reaction to the turnout. Farage last night (when he thought he might lose) bemoaning the number of people allowed to register post-deadline, and Andrew Bridgen now having a go at first-time voters in their 50s and 60s.

 

I can't know how informed or uninformed those first-timers were, but surely the more who take part, the better for democracy? Sadly, I fear turnout levels will return to their usual levels and that this was a one-shot gig for people wanting to get some feelings (against the government, or foreigners, or both, or whatever) off their chest. Hope I'm wrong, because that'd be a huge shame and I'd genuinely love to see the same amount of passion come to the fore at future elections.

 

See also, twats going on about "everyone being a political expert" on Facebook/Twitter. Just nice to see people engaging with politics for once, even if I'm quite strongly opposed to some of the views (coherent though they are) that I'm reading!

[AKCJ]

When I condescend I don't proclaim to have a large brain. Rather I lament the small size of other brains.

You may not have a large brain but you've certainly got a big head.

[Nod.E]

Well... you might have a larger brain, but you're acting like a child.

 

Do yourself a favour and walk away.

You might be right.

It's hard not to act like a child when something so painstakingly obvious has been overlooked by a majority, the ramifications are going to lead to job losses and hardship, and there's nothing I or anyone else can do about it.

I like to think of myself as a level-headed individual, not tending to over-react in good or in bad. 

I've no shame in admitting that in this case, yes, I am throwing my toys out of the pram. I'm not saying it's right, it just feels like the only thing I can do right now. Next coping mechanism is alcohol. See you on the other side.

[SecretPro]

You might be right.

It's hard not to act like a child when something so painstakingly obvious has been overlooked by a majority, the ramifications are going to lead to job losses and hardship, and there's nothing I or anyone else can do about it.

I like to think of myself as a level-headed individual, not tending to over-react in good or in bad. 

I've no shame in admitting that in this case, yes, I am throwing my toys out of the pram. I'm not saying it's right, it just feels like the only thing I can do right now. Next coping mechanism is alcohol. See you on the other side.

 

[Mike Oxlong]

Weird. Everything looks the same as yesterday but it doesn't feel the same.

[leicsmac]

In an attempt to inject a little levity:

 

 

Excellent to see FOX News keeping their sterling record for news accuracy intact.

[Thracian]

Everyone has mixed emotions , we stand together

Britain is indestructible

Even thatcher couldn't break her spirit !

 

 

The UK has been an immigrant country for centuries, as in, big influxes of immigration citizens are nothing new to you. A lot of that I guess is down to your country's history. What has changed in this respect?

 

I believe that the UK is happy to have immigrants, but at a sensible controlable level, for social planning reasons receiving 300,000 people roughly every year has strained institutions such as the NHS, Schools, and Housing (The price of houses in the UK are astronomical, totally unaffordable for a single person).

 

It is felt that low skilled workers should not be allowed to arrive en mass as we already have many unemployed who could be working in the unskilled labour market.

 

 

The UK is not part of the Schengen agreement, so why this argument that the UK cannot control it's own borders? Isn't that outright wrong?

 

I understand this, I am unsure how we have had such an influx of EU nationals (mainly from the east) who have happily taken many unskilled jobs.

 

 

Is there actually any evidence that pressures caused by immigration is negatively affecting those 'less well off'?

 

Yes, salaries have not risen year on year, this is because the labour market has more people than jobs available, which is great for business as it keeps wages low, but not for people as their aspirations are dwindling due to more competition. 

 

 

And who are these people anyway?

 

I imagine that they are many old socialist / nationalist voters, obviously not all.

 

 

What's this inherent idea that British indigenous people contribute more to society and wealth than immigrants?

 

I do not believe that there is a belief that they contribute more, but that they should be first in the queue in the country that they were born in, studied and whose ancestors created its culture and values, rather than an economic migrant.

 

 

Is it a good way to pick and choose on the basis citizenship in your passport?

 

I think that is always how it has been. Only in the EU have they tried to create a sense of European nationality from many countries, which many people in the UK do not agree with. Is it better or worse, I am unsure.

 

 

 

We have our fair share of xenophobes in Denmark, yet strangely, these people predominantly live in areas with very few foreign immigrants. They act on prejudice and fear, not on anything based in reality. Again, these are people that should take a long hard look at themselves before pointing the finger.

Sorry for the barrage of questions, I guess I'm a bit taken aback by it all.

 

 

My answers to your questions, are just my perceptions of the state of the current feeling in the UK, not necessarily my opinions of how things actually are.

 

 

 

i find it staggering how people misunderstand the reasons for our nation voting "Leave" by a narrow but still fairly substantial majority and then try to categorize the decisions of those "Leavers" with assumed generalisations. 

 

I also find generalised attacks on the "elderly" irksome. It's no better than bracketing young people together or saying it was people who "didn't have degrees" who voted "Leave".

 

What is it about people that makes them want to label them so definitely - and even more so when they don't know them nor do they have the slightest idea what they think.

 

Only a little of what you mention touches on my own reasons for voting "Leave" and, having just spoken to one of my three sons, it doesn't touch on his reasons either, which were almost entirely different to my own.

 

I also keep hearing reference to xenophobes, an impressive-sounding word that is actually being misused as a convenient kind of catch-all (for a supposed kind) when it actually has fairly specific definition and one that's not actually very appropriate to the kind of thinking I've listened to in relation to immigration.

 

According to Collins Dictionary Xenophobia is "strong and unreasonable dislike or fear of people from other countries."

Note the words "unreasonable" and "other countries" (plural).

When I talk to people about immigration I don't think the "fears" they express are "unreasonable" at all. They are real, specific, qualified and make mention of bodies on the streets of Paris or buses blown to pieces in London.

Nor do these perfectly reasonable, understandable and qualified "fears" relate to foreigners in general or from specific countries. Indeed, I'd say any prejudice was arguably "faithist" more often than racist or "foreignist",  because the perfectly reasonable "fears" may well apply to British nationals (perhaps of foreign extraction but by no means necessarily) just as readily as other nationalities.

People flailing machetes and cutting the heads from  soldier's shoulders are to be quite reasonably feared but it doesn't turn those concerned into xenophobes with "unreasonable" fears.

Nor is faith or race necessarily a factor when people have perfectly "reasonable" fears about others and are not actually phobic at all in general.  

In other words a person with "reasonable" as opposed to "unreasonable" fear/concern about particular people is not a xenophobe,  may well actually like foreigners in the main or they may like some foreigners and not others, rather like they might react to people of their own nationality.

But how easily the label fits the name-caller as a means of nullifying discussion that a self-or-subject-interested campaigner may prefer to keep subdued.

One important thing you mention is incomers undercutting others when it comes to securing jobs. There is a big difference between fair competition for available jobs (although I'd argue that our first responsibility is to our native population) and the malpractices that are widespread in modern Britain and which are particularly highlighted by the cases taken out against gangmasters for their ways of undercutting others in the produce-picking market.  

How can this sort of thing be fair on native workers? Yet it is clearly widespread in farmworking but in other, sometimes unseen, piecework areas too making a lot of people pissed off big time because its all part of the many scams being overlooked but which disadvantage native job hunters.      

 

http://www.fruitnet.com/fpj/article/161386/uk-crop-picking-exploitation-arrests

http://www.itv.com/news/anglia/story/2013-10-15/gangmaster-raids-in-fens/

[AKCJ]

Finally, i can come together with you. If youll have me.