Brexit Discussion Thread.

[Buce]

I went to pick the missus up from work this morning, and while I was waiting, I got chatting to a couple of hospital cleaners. Both had voted Leave and were delerious with excitement at the prospect of 'things getting back to how it used to be'. I asked them what they meant.

The first replied that she'd be able to get a council house now we're sending all the wogs and pakis (sic) home; the second that Leicester will once again be the centre of the hosiery trade (I used to work at Corahs, yer know, trained overlocker me).

To those of you who would defend the right of such monumentally stupid people to actually have a fvcking vote, let me ask you a question: If you were up in court, would you really be ok with these morons being on the jury?

[DJ Barry Hammond]

One thing those on the Brexit side need to understand quickly - they need to be much more conciliatory to the younger Remainers, because if this country is going to prosper it needs significant help from that demographic.

If that talent feels disaffected and we see significant moves of young professionals like Junior Doctors and future entrapenours, the country would lose what is its key resource right now.

[GaelicFox]

I found this quite an interesting read (it's a bit long-winded though).

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/27/eu-democratic-bandwagon-juncker-president-wanted

It's from 2014 and is about how none of the major Heads of the European countries really wanted Jean-Claude Juncker as the President. However, due to Europe's bureaucracy it explains why he was elected.

I think he's been a big factor in a lot of people voting out. He should never have come out the night before saying (something to the effect) there will be no more negotiation, Britain has got all it will ever get, etc.

If he said no "foreign scum would be allowed into Britain"

It might have swayed it

Anything else was a waste of wanking time

[GaelicFox]

Jesus Christ

This is scary !

[BlueSi13]

Social media is getting completely out of hand now.  Where is all this doom about the UK 'breaking up' coming from?  Northern Ireland has absolutely no wish to leave the UK and Sturgeon knows that if there was a second Scottish referendum tomorrow she'd lose terribly.  People are even saying that Wales and god damn CORNWALL will go their own way (don't think anybody checked to see that they both voted Leave)

 

As for Scotland, the UK leaving the EU does not provide answers to any of the questions that the SNP spectacularly failed to answer at the last referendum and now Scotland has pretty much lost its oil industry to boot.  Any referendum would also probably be years away....lots of cooling down in that period as we adjust to the new norm.

 

Some people seriously need to go take a lie down. 

[z-layrex]

The funniest is everyone is convinced London will become a state separate to normal UK administration because it had 59% remains majority.

 

My city is full of melts honestly.

 

Even my mangers are going full on bat-shit over FB saying anyone who voted leave is a racist idiot who has ruined the lives of all our children.

[The Guvnor]

Check the historical house price to earnings ratio. Houses used to be worth 2.5 times average earnings, now they're worth more like 5 times average earnings or 10 times average earnings in London. On top of that, mortgages now require much higher deposits. So, I genuinely congratulate you on your hard work and getting on the housing ladder (although you did say earlier you did it with your parents help so now I don't know what to believe) but if you or your parents were attempting the same thing now you'd need to work twice as hard to get there.

This is substantially the fault of the older generation because, like I say, they vote for political parties who promise house price growth, when in fact house price growth hinders the young and doesn't even really benefit themselves except in a superficial way.

Also Bob I don't suppose you considered the ratio you have referred to may have been affected by the right to buy act 1980-1997 introduced by Margaret Thatcher, council houses bought in the tens of thousands.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

It's a referendum on the UK's membership of the EU and not one on the individual issues that frame the debate on that question. People can make their decision on what they think will happen or what they want to happen but those questions are answered in General Elections when governments are elected. Just because people vote leave because they want migration to go down it doesn't mean it will happen because the question on the ballot wasn't about immigrants.

EDIT: of course migration should go down because that's the governments manifesto commitment. I should have used another example but you can insert another issue into the post if you want

You misjudge the mood among your own support then - for many, this was an anti austerity, anti establishment, anti immigration vote, all things sighted by the leading players on the leave side. The referendum was just a convient excuse.

The leave campaign was a mini manifesto of sorts - some voters even believe the NHS will be saved because of this, that it will get £350 million (or £100 million as it was mentioned tonight funnily enough). I imagine some voters may even be under the impression Nigel Farage would have a say in government or at least the renegotiations now, even though he's not directly elected for our own Parliament (there was talk of a peerage I believe as a way in for him).

And these factors lead to a major headache for whoever takes the lead on this now - and could point to the reasons why many Conservatives on the Brexit side wanted Cameron to stay on - to act as a fire guard should they fall short on the range of promises that had been given in the renegotiations.

And these considerations don't even take into account the Scottish and Northern Ireland questions, the need to keep the UK economy functioning to some degree and the level of Parlaimentary hours possibly needed to consider the reconstruction of our laws, what stays and what goes.

Taking all of this into account, one thing is for certain in my mind - there will be many Brexit supporters that will get to a stage down the line and think "I didn't vote for this."

[BlueSi13]

The funniest is everyone is convinced London will become a state separate to normal UK administration because it had 59% remains majority.

 

My city is full of melts honestly.

 

Even my mangers are going full on bat-shit over FB saying anyone who voted leave is a racist idiot who has ruined the lives of all our children.

 

 

Oh yes forgot to mention how the Remainers are also convinced London will now declare independence 

 

But seriously some of the disgust and hatred now being paraded by some of them (little doubt they had the same feelings before the referendum) towards our country is actually becoming quite perverse now.  

 

I actually fear for the health of some of them.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Social media is getting completely out of hand now.  Where is all this doom about the UK 'breaking up' coming from?  Northern Ireland has absolutely no wish to leave the UK and Sturgeon knows that if there was a second Scottish referendum tomorrow she'd lose terribly.  People are even saying that Wales and god damn CORNWALL will go their own way (don't think anybody checked to see that they both voted Leave)

 

As for Scotland, the UK leaving the EU does not provide answers to any of the questions that the SNP spectacularly failed to answer at the last referendum and now Scotland has pretty much lost its oil industry to boot.  Any referendum would also probably be years away....lots of cooling down in that period as we adjust to the new norm.

 

Some people seriously need to go take a lie down. 

This vote has got people thinking of their own identity... and maybe, just maybe, a reasonable proportion in areas where they potentially could conceivably have their own say, don't want to be associated to the identity that's just been returned.

Just think if the vote had turned out the other way and Scotland / London had effectively held the North hostage - we'd have the same musings wouldn't we? Either, let's kick Scotland and London out, or let's cut the North off from the South, or similar.

The key difference here however, is you have political leaders actually in a position to demand these things. I actually think Northern Ireland could go back to a "United" Ireland, partly because it could dawn on people it would be so difficult to keep them as separate entities in this new position. We may also see Dublin benefit from London's loss, making unification a much more attractive option.

[Carl the Llama]

Jesus Christ

This is scary !

Terrifying. I wish I could say the people in that video were a stark contrast to the informed members of the public I've had the chance to speak to on the subject but alas it really just confirms my fear that this is a victory for the anti-federalists backed by a wave of clueless idiots.  

 

Again, to be clear:  I'm not saying that all leave voters are morons but rather that most of the morons out there seem swayed towards a vague, aimless nationalism and it's helped boost the leave vote over the threshold.  So many people today told me they have no idea what's going to happen and they can't explain to me why they voted to leave.  One irl person was able to explain their reasons for voting leave to me today.  One.  The same person was going on about immigrants and £350million/week to the NHS last week though so I suspect he just parrots paper talk to make himself sound what he thinks of as clever and has no actual socio-econo-political opinion forming faculties of his own.

 

Then again I'm more angry at the many morons who were telling me this morning how upset they are with the result even though they didn't vote and even dared to try explaining why they were right not to ("I don't want to give any politician a mandate", "I voted lib-dem and got a conservative government so I didn't think democracy works" to name the two most idiotic examples).  So I guess it's idiots on all sides that caused this outcome.

 

Edit:  Sorry I do the lib-dem argument a disservice; it was even worse than that.  The guy actually blames Nick Clegg that he made a decision not to register and vote.  So there we go - Brexit is Nick Clegg's fault everybody.

[Leicester_Loyal]

I went to pick the missus up from work this morning, and while I was waiting, I got chatting to a couple of hospital cleaners. Both had voted Leave and were delerious with excitement at the prospect of 'things getting back to how it used to be'. I asked them what they meant.

The first replied that she'd be able to get a council house now we're sending all the wogs and pakis (sic) home; the second that Leicester will once again be the centre of the hosiery trade (I used to work at Corahs, yer know, trained overlocker me).

To those of you who would defend the right of such monumentally stupid people to actually have a fvcking vote, let me ask you a question: If you were up in court, would you really be ok with these morons being on the jury?

Everyone is entitled to a vote, regardless of their beliefs. It's quite obvious the majority of us leavers do not agree with the racism that is being shown by some leavers who are clearly far right. I feel that it's the same as most remain voters, who are not far left. There is going to be extremists on both sides, who are quite clearly idiots.

[Sharpe's Fox]

You misjudge the mood among your own support then - for many, this was an anti austerity, anti establishment, anti immigration vote, all things sighted by the leading players on the leave side. The referendum was just a convient excuse.

The leave campaign was a mini manifesto of sorts - some voters even believe the NHS will be saved because of this, that it will get £350 million (or £100 million as it was mentioned tonight funnily enough). I imagine some voters may even be under the impression Nigel Farage would have a say in government or at least the renegotiations now, even though he's not directly elected for our own Parliament (there was talk of a peerage I believe as a way in for him).

And these factors lead to a major headache for whoever takes the lead on this now - and could point to the reasons why many Conservatives on the Brexit side wanted Cameron to stay on - to act as a fire guard should they fall short on the range of promises that had been given in the renegotiations.

And these considerations don't even take into account the Scottish and Northern Ireland questions, the need to keep the UK economy functioning to some degree and the level of Parlaimentary hours possibly needed to consider the reconstruction of our laws, what stays and what goes.

Taking all of this into account, one thing is for certain in my mind - there will be many Brexit supporters that will get to a stage down the line and think "I didn't vote for this."

If people don't understand how referendums work then I can't control that. Blame the Remain side if you think people took the Vote Leave sides arguments literally, how many times did they say something like, "the country will be run by Boris, Gove and Farage." when that isn't the vote at all.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

The remain side stopped saying that because they realised that was a popular thing among leave supporters!

No, there's one person to blame / congratulate (depending on which side your on) and it's glaringly obvious really - George bloody Osborne!

What he was doing, trying to push through those £4 billion tax credit cuts not long before this referendum given all the austerity he had inflicted on people in the term before that (which was the main reason for people's wage suppression) was beyond belief, when he knew how weak and eurosceptic a labour leader he had across from him.

Had he thought longer term for just one second, rather than be intent on playing political games he so loved (and I have a suspicion he may have given Cameron the idea for the referendum in the first place) we wouldn't be in this position now - more people would have felt like they had something to lose and the fabled project fear might have worked... but fear is no use when you feel you have nothing, that is when hope becomes a powerful idea and to be fair to leave, they captured that with the "take back control" mantra.

Ironically, control is the one thing completely lacking right now.

[Buce]

Everyone is entitled to a vote, regardless of their beliefs. It's quite obvious the majority of us leavers do not agree with the racism that is being shown by some leavers who are clearly far right. I feel that it's the same as most remain voters, who are not far left. There is going to be extremists on both sides, who are quite clearly idiots.

It's not the racism (as abhorent as it is) that I'm drawing attention to. The first melt firmly believes that all immigrants (blacks and asians included) will now be 'sent home', the second that Leicester's hosiery trade will now miraculously be resurgent because we've left the EU.

The most important vote in a generation has been decided, in part, by people who have absolutely zero understanding of what they were voting for.

So, I'll ask you again: would you be comfortable with such people serving on a jury, with you as a defendant?

[Dodgy Bob]

No Bob read my post again I did not say I had any financial help from my parents, the reason house prices have risen is because of supply and demand we seem to be going full circle here, its nothing to do with the elderly manipulating the market by continuous strategic voting, what on earth are you talking about.

Were just going to have to disagree here and walk on, chap.

I eagerly await the election where a party promising to reduce the state pension to a sustainable level and take serious action on house prices gets a ringing endorsement from all those over 50's who seriously care about the young people in this country. However, I am absolutely certain that won't happen any time soon.

[KFS]

I still haven't heard a sensible and logical reason for backing the Brexit and I've been watching/ reading the news all day. Can someone who voted out please help?

Not looking to spark off an argument, in fact I'm resigned to this now given its been forced on me despite supporting Remain. Any factual responses to help me feel better will be greatly appreciated. So, no "immigration will come down" or "more money to the NHS".

Thanks

[DJ Barry Hammond]

I still haven't heard a sensible and logical reason for backing the Brexit and I've been watching/ reading the news all day. Can someone who voted out please help?

Not looking to spark off an argument, in fact I'm resigned to this now given its been forced on me despite supporting Remain. Any factual responses to help me feel better will be greatly appreciated. So, no "immigration will come down" or "more money to the NHS".

Thanks

Quite simply... they had the better campaign.

Something Cameron & Osborne ignored from the Scottish Referendum was although project fear was effective, being a "United Kingdom" feels better than being a "United Europe". They didn't have a reaffirming positive alongside the scare tactic.

[Dodgy Bob]

Some of the leave arguments about the EU's anti-demicratic nature and the way they were apparently trying to centralise powers and the way they treated Greece seemed fairly solid. For me they weren't quite persuasive enough to justify the turmoil but it looks like the EU was headed for turmoil anyway. If the whole thing breaks up or is forced into serious reforms then we might actually come out of this in a pretty good position. Not that any of those Burnley voters in the video above and others like them will benefit in a way even remotely close to what they're expecting. But a proper full on break up of the EU now would probably serve us quite well.

[Thracian]

Being older might mean you've got a bit more experience but I don't think it guarantees you're any less selfish. Take pensions for example, no party in their right mind would suggest cutting the state pension for existing pensioners. You could say young people will literally die if we don't cut pensions and it would still be a massive vote loser. Ditto house prices. Young people can't afford to buy houses, do older people care? Of course not, they just want the superficial satisfaction of seeing their house increase in value and to hell with anybody else.

In a reasonable society there would be an expectation that older voters vote with the lives of young people in mind, but for all their experience I don't think there's any evidence they actually do that. The baby boomer generation seem in many ways to have gone out of their way to screw over the next generation as much as possible.

 

 

It's rare to read anything so far from the truth.  I think it appalling that so many young people can't afford houses and that they're so ridiculously expensive. As I've mentioned with wages so often, it's not how much you're paid but how much the money buys that matters. How much a month for a car? I used to buy a car for one of today's monthly payments.      

[Babylon]

Terrifying. I wish I could say the people in that video were a stark contrast to the informed members of the public I've had the chance to speak to on the subject but alas it really just confirms my fear that this is a victory for the anti-federalists backed by a wave of clueless idiots.

Again, to be clear: I'm not saying that all leave voters are morons but rather that most of the morons out there seem swayed towards a vague, aimless nationalism and it's helped boost the leave vote over the threshold. So many people today told me they have no idea what's going to happen and they can't explain to me why they voted to leave. One irl person was able to explain their reasons for voting leave to me today. One. The same person was going on about immigrants and £350million/week to the NHS last week though so I suspect he just parrots paper talk to make himself sound what he thinks of as clever and has no actual socio-econo-political opinion forming faculties of his own.

Then again I'm more angry at the many morons who were telling me this morning how upset they are with the result even though they didn't vote and even dared to try explaining why they were right not to ("I don't want to give any politician a mandate", "I voted lib-dem and got a conservative government so I didn't think democracy works" to name the two most idiotic examples). So I guess it's idiots on all sides that caused this outcome.

Edit: Sorry I do the lib-dem argument a disservice; it was even worse than that. The guy actually blames Nick Clegg that he made a decision not to register and vote. So there we go - Brexit is Nick Clegg's fault everybody.

So are you naive enough to think the stay vote also doesn't have millions of people who don't have a clue what they are really voting for?

[Babylon]

I still haven't heard a sensible and logical reason for backing the Brexit and I've been watching/ reading the news all day. Can someone who voted out please help?

Not looking to spark off an argument, in fact I'm resigned to this now given its been forced on me despite supporting Remain. Any factual responses to help me feel better will be greatly appreciated. So, no "immigration will come down" or "more money to the NHS".

Thanks

Not that it was my vote, but you could try reading the other thread, or this one.

[Webbo]

The remain side stopped saying that because they realised that was a popular thing among leave supporters!

No, there's one person to blame / congratulate (depending on which side your on) and it's glaringly obvious really - George bloody Osborne!

What he was doing, trying to push through those £4 billion tax credit cuts not long before this referendum given all the austerity he had inflicted on people in the term before that (which was the main reason for people's wage suppression) was beyond belief, when he knew how weak and eurosceptic a labour leader he had across from him.

Had he thought longer term for just one second, rather than be intent on playing political games he so loved (and I have a suspicion he may have given Cameron the idea for the referendum in the first place) we wouldn't be in this position now - more people would have felt like they had something to lose and the fabled project fear might have worked... but fear is no use when you feel you have nothing, that is when hope becomes a powerful idea and to be fair to leave, they captured that with the "take back control" mantra.

Ironically, control is the one thing completely lacking right now.

I've heard this a lot, " it was a vote against austerity", it's bollox. The plebs aren't voting how they should it must be the Tories fault is just the sort of elitist rubbish that cost the remain vote.. If the EU had given Cameron a few concessions, at least pretended to care what the electorate, of all Europe wanted, none of this would have happened. 

[leicsmac]

Interesting opinion piece from the Telegraph yesterday.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/dear-remainers-you-lost-stop-whinging-on-facebook/

 

I can see his point regarding the need to pull together in the aftermath here, but I also think it's a bit rich for the Brexiteers to turn around and ask for help 'to do the best for the country' from the Bremainers now. If they were so certain of a bright future outside of the EU, then they can do the work to build it by themselves, surely? With all the credit that entails if they get it right, and the blame if it goes wrong. The Remainers are under no obligation to 'work with the (silm) majority' in any way. If they actively blocked the progress the Brexiters were trying to make, then that would be a problem...but instead merely doing nothing? 

 

Also, it appears that the Remain side don't have a monopoly on patronisation.

[Strokes]

I went to pick the missus up from work this morning, and while I was waiting, I got chatting to a couple of hospital cleaners. Both had voted Leave and were delerious with excitement at the prospect of 'things getting back to how it used to be'. I asked them what they meant.

The first replied that she'd be able to get a council house now we're sending all the wogs and pakis (sic) home; the second that Leicester will once again be the centre of the hosiery trade (I used to work at Corahs, yer know, trained overlocker me).

To those of you who would defend the right of such monumentally stupid people to actually have a fvcking vote, let me ask you a question: If you were up in court, would you really be ok with these morons being on the jury?

God I agree buce, never have I witnessed so many openly stupid, ignorant people. From both sides but it does seem a little top heavy at this end unfortunately. Hysterical drivel to outrageous nonsense, I'm glad I decided to hide away for the weekend (even if I did it expecting a completely different outcome).