Alf Bentley Posted 29 June 2016 Share Posted 29 June 2016 So what sort of deal do people think we will have when the dust settles? Norway Model - single market access. EEA member. Free movement. Switzeland Model - Non EEA member, Acees to EU market through agreements, EU regulations on trade, Free movement, No duty to implement EU law. Turkey Model - No tariff or quotas on industrial goods, EU tariff on non EU goods. (Customs union). Canada Option - Most good tariff free, Possible Ceta Agreement - access to single market. Singapore/Hong Kong approach - Unilateral free trade approach no tariffs Or something different altogether. Given the economic problems in much of the Eurozone, the growth of Euroscepticism on the continent, concern over immigration, the rise of the Far Right in some countries - and now the Brexit shock...... I wonder if the rest of the EU may now retreat a bit from the imposition of austerity economics and may water down the freedom of movement? With Greece still needing bailout cash, other nations struggling and Le Pen licking her lips with glee, looking forward to next year's French Presidential election, reform wouldn't surprise me.....in which case, the UK might have got much of what it wanted by staying put with a narrow Remain vote. For all our sakes, I hope something like that does happen. Even though we're now going to be leaving (I assume), what happens in the rest of Europe will still be massively important to us on every level. Maybe, in a couple of years time, we'll find ourselves with a Norwegian-style EEA single market deal, having negotiated slightly lower contributions than we were paying and having signed up to new, more flexible "free movement" rules (perhaps only allowing free movement for people who have got jobs before they arrive - which might mainly be more skilled professionals, rather than the lower-skilled migrants who arouse such fear about low pay, job insecurity etc. Might even involve some sort of semi-detached "associate member" status.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Finsbury Posted 29 June 2016 Share Posted 29 June 2016 It's become apparent that many people that voted leave did so based on emotion rather than anything else and emotion has no place in politics. Decisions that affect millions of people need to be well informed and based on facts rather than hopes. If I had been a leave voter and had been told the things that the leave campaign told us, only to realise that there was no manifesto or plan to make these promises happen, I'd feel cheated. Assuming again, that as a leave voter I wasn't just relying on emotions to make my decision for me. If it were a general election and the manifesto of a party was full of potentially unachievable promises that, upon election, they declared that not all of what they said was possible, there would be an uproar. I cast my vote based on how much I could potentially lose if we left the EU. These reasons directly affect my work and life. I haven't been affected by immigration directly - I've never been out of work as a result of immigration, I've never had problems getting doctor, hospital and dentist appointments and therefore bon't consider it too much of an issue for me. Do I think that they shouldn't be entitled to the benefits they can claim? Yes, that does seem ridiculous, but I also disagree with the welfare system for UK citizens (through our own government) too as we're a soft touch to our own also. Had we undergone welfare reform, then EU immigrants wouldn't be entitled to as much as they are and their decision to come to the UK may not be the best one for them. This is only from personal experience but not one educated, well-informed and reasoned person that I know thinks that leaving the EU is a good idea - not one! I've also yet to hear from anyone I know that voted to leave give a valid reason as to not only how they are going to be better off with independence but how they expect it to happen. It's very easy to say that now we've voted out we're going to do this and do that without any evidence to back it up but it's also very easy to say that by staying in the EU after having this referendum won't result in EU reform. If here say is going to be treated as facts, it's as valid when it comes from both sides. I really doubt that we'll ever leave the EU. Or rather, we won't leave it as a result of this referendum, I don't think. With Cameron leaving and not triggering article 50 before he goes, it'll be for the next PM to do it. Even if Boris was elected, I'm not entirely sure he thinks leaving is actually a good idea despite his gesticulations. I wouldn't be surprised if theres not another general election within 12 months and with such a high number of MPs being more sympathetic to staying in Europe, you just know that remaining in Europe will be at the top of certain party's manifesto. I'm sure I read that even if article 50 was triggered, we can still change our minds before the decree nisi is absolute. Whatever happens, the EU has been rocked by this and I would be seriously surprised if there wasn't some kind of reform. Whether we're a part of that reform remains to be seen, but to avoid other countries finding this renewed sense of blind patriotism, they'll act swiftly to nip it in the bud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammie82uk Posted 29 June 2016 Share Posted 29 June 2016 This ****ing stupid petition is at 4m signatures now. What do we just keep having referendums then? Idiots. Apparently there are 42,000 signatories from the Vatican City which only has a population of 840 There won't be a second referendum regarding this even if it gets 10 million votes The only way and it would be very very doubtful I can see there being a "second" referendum about this subject will be on what terms we accept when leaving Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted 29 June 2016 Share Posted 29 June 2016 It's become apparent that many people that voted leave did so based on emotion rather than anything else and emotion has no place in politics. Decisions that affect millions of people need to be well informed and based on facts rather than hopes. If I had been a leave voter and had been told the things that the leave campaign told us, only to realise that there was no manifesto or plan to make these promises happen, I'd feel cheated. Assuming again, that as a leave voter I wasn't just relying on emotions to make my decision for me. If it were a general election and the manifesto of a party was full of potentially unachievable promises that, upon election, they declared that not all of what they said was possible, there would be an uproar. I cast my vote based on how much I could potentially lose if we left the EU. These reasons directly affect my work and life. I haven't been affected by immigration directly - I've never been out of work as a result of immigration, I've never had problems getting doctor, hospital and dentist appointments and therefore bon't consider it too much of an issue for me. Do I think that they shouldn't be entitled to the benefits they can claim? Yes, that does seem ridiculous, but I also disagree with the welfare system for UK citizens (through our own government) too as we're a soft touch to our own also. Had we undergone welfare reform, then EU immigrants wouldn't be entitled to as much as they are and their decision to come to the UK may not be the best one for them. This is only from personal experience but not one educated, well-informed and reasoned person that I know thinks that leaving the EU is a good idea - not one! I've also yet to hear from anyone I know that voted to leave give a valid reason as to not only how they are going to be better off with independence but how they expect it to happen. It's very easy to say that now we've voted out we're going to do this and do that without any evidence to back it up but it's also very easy to say that by staying in the EU after having this referendum won't result in EU reform. If here say is going to be treated as facts, it's as valid when it comes from both sides. I really doubt that we'll ever leave the EU. Or rather, we won't leave it as a result of this referendum, I don't think. With Cameron leaving and not triggering article 50 before he goes, it'll be for the next PM to do it. Even if Boris was elected, I'm not entirely sure he thinks leaving is actually a good idea despite his gesticulations. I wouldn't be surprised if theres not another general election within 12 months and with such a high number of MPs being more sympathetic to staying in Europe, you just know that remaining in Europe will be at the top of certain party's manifesto. I'm sure I read that even if article 50 was triggered, we can still change our minds before the decree nisi is absolute. Whatever happens, the EU has been rocked by this and I would be seriously surprised if there wasn't some kind of reform. Whether we're a part of that reform remains to be seen, but to avoid other countries finding this renewed sense of blind patriotism, they'll act swiftly to nip it in the bud. Just because you don't know any educated intelligent people who want to leave the EU doesn't mean there aren't lots of them, just that most of your friends are fools Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bovril Posted 29 June 2016 Share Posted 29 June 2016 We need to have a referendum to decide if we have a second referendum. And only about 500,000 of those are from actual people according to the Guardian Reminds me of a story I read about a local election in Turkey where 2000 dead people voted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 29 June 2016 Share Posted 29 June 2016 I This is only from personal experience but not one educated, well-informed and reasoned person that I know thinks that leaving the EU is a good idea - not one! I've also yet to hear from anyone I know that voted to leave give a valid reason as to not only how they are going to be better off with independence but how they expect it to happen. It's very easy to say that now we've voted out we're going to do this and do that without any evidence to back it up but it's also very easy to say that by staying in the EU after having this referendum won't result in EU reform. If here say is going to be treated as facts, it's as valid when it comes from both sides. There have been thousands of posts on here, pre and post referendum saying why people wanted to leave. You may not agree with them but that doesn't prove that they're not well informed ,valid reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Finsbury Posted 29 June 2016 Share Posted 29 June 2016 Just because you don't know any educated intelligent people who want to leave the EU doesn't mean there aren't lots of them, just that most of your friends are fools Or I don't know many fools, perhaps? I'm surrounded by some of the most educated people in the UK at work and not one of them sees it as a good thing. There have been thousands of posts on here, pre and post referendum saying why people wanted to leave. You may not agree with them but that doesn't prove that they're not well informed ,valid reasons. I wasn't specifically basing my experience on what people on here have said. I imagine that football supporters, on the whole, lean mostly to the right and would hardly be a true reflection of the entire population. There may well be reasons why they voted leave, I'm talking about actual personal benefits where evidence is available rather that just the promises made by those campaigning. As with all politics, one side's arguments will always be rebuffed by the other side. We know what we're currently getting with the current EU, we have no evidence that anything suggested from the leave campaign could actually come to fruition. This whole campaign became a war between the heads of each side rather than a realistic demonstration of the pros and cons of staying and leaving and this is what clouded the judgement of many. Leave promised so much but have no plan in place to deliver and Remain, rather than focusing on the positive aspects of EU membership spent most of the campaign being negative towards those promises. So many people who voted remain are so focused on the fact that they won, they're completely uninterested in any arguments attempting to highlight that it could have been a mistake. To have your choice criticised, regardless of the topic that's being debated, is taken as a personal attack and the defence instantly comes up. I am under no illusion that the way the EU is currently run doesn't need changing, but I'd imagine that regardless of any changes that happen those that voted leave would still want to leave. Like I said in my previous post, this is because for many, it's emotional rather than informed. Edit: Oh and Webbo, if you think I'm going to trawl through all 2200 posts looking for personal benefits of leaving amongst the absolute garbage, you're mistaken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vardinio'sCat Posted 29 June 2016 Share Posted 29 June 2016 Bastard EDF types, putting up energy bills. Hitler did that as well, his gas bill was ****ing gigantic. Ah yes, I meant EDL. Dunno bout gas chamber jokes tho... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vardinio'sCat Posted 29 June 2016 Share Posted 29 June 2016 Well I was told "**** off out of this country" and "why are you even here" in A private message on this forum yesterday ranting about Catholic Irish people , the mods took action which I'm grateful for. in 25 years living in Leics that's the first time it's happened to me , even on FT this crap is happening Give a mindless fool a dangerous weapon (nationalism) and they will 100% use it for destructive reasons. My sympathies mate, I don't think it is a happy time, for many people. I do think this is just a great opportunity for the genuinely racist to have a bit of a go. One of the reasons that politicians have traditionally tiptoed round the subject of immigration is because of this kind of thing. Farage may say that such sensitivities have helped create problems, but his divisive rhetoric is playing with fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vardinio'sCat Posted 29 June 2016 Share Posted 29 June 2016 On a scale of 1-10 how much of a hypocrite would I be to exercise my right to an Irish passport/citizenship in case Brexit goes tits up? I'm thinking of doing the same, but I voted in! Apparently there is a bit of a queue at the mo, so I'm just going to wait and see how things pan out. Tbh, I can't see it being that bad, unless we leave the single market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vardinio'sCat Posted 29 June 2016 Share Posted 29 June 2016 Whatever way you voted, you have to admit... The news is a damn site more interesting than if we had voted in! I loved the way the guy behind Farage at the EU parliament had his head in his hands when he was told he'd never had a proper job. A Lithuanian former heart surgeon, he had been raised in a Soviet Gulag, and saw his first tree at the age of 12. I think he knows more about why the EU is important than privately educated 'man of the people' Nigel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaelicFox Posted 29 June 2016 Share Posted 29 June 2016 I'm thinking of doing the same, but I voted in! Apparently there is a bit of a queue at the mo, so I'm just going to wait and see how things pan out. Tbh, I can't see it being that bad, unless we leave the single market. I know a man that can help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaelicFox Posted 29 June 2016 Share Posted 29 June 2016 This is amazing recovery , it's a bounce But a bounce all the same http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36660133 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Col city fan Posted 29 June 2016 Share Posted 29 June 2016 For all Farage's ignorance and bad manners, some of those comments strike me as being arrestable offences. If stuff like this was being said by the NF for example, there would be arrests. Politics is so bent it's unreal. Karl Marx had this right. People are conditioned to think by the superstructure and what is and isn't accepted by whom becomes engraind into the culture of society. Slogans like this are despicable, whoever is writing them and parading them. But it's more 'acceptable' because it's coming from a woman campaigning against a pariah (in this case, Farage). So it's ok.. British society is RIDDLED with hypocrisy, oozing from every pore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 29 June 2016 Share Posted 29 June 2016 So long as Murdoch and Dacre approve I'm sure we'll find someone to lead us through this. Thanks for the heads up Sarah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Col city fan Posted 29 June 2016 Share Posted 29 June 2016 Well I was told "**** off out of this country" and "why are you even here" in A private message on this forum yesterday ranting about Catholic Irish people , the mods took action which I'm grateful for. in 25 years living in Leics that's the first time it's happened to me , even on FT this crap is happening Give a mindless fool a dangerous weapon (nationalism) and they will 100% use it for destructive reasons. What action have the mods taken? Has it been reported? I swear, we are going to Hell in a hand cart at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaelicFox Posted 29 June 2016 Share Posted 29 June 2016 So long as Murdoch and Dacre approve I'm sure we'll find someone to lead us through this. Thanks for the heads up Sarah Started a thread on it It's shocking and a fantastic insight into who is running the country ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaelicFox Posted 29 June 2016 Share Posted 29 June 2016 What action have the mods taken? Has it been reported? I swear, we are going to Hell in a hand cart at the moment. I believe he has been banned I have a couple of sick messages last night Today over 20 fantastic messages !!! Form good fellas I'm happy with that , he was an idiot before last Thursday and will be every Thursday till he meets his maker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Col city fan Posted 29 June 2016 Share Posted 29 June 2016 I believe he has been banned I have a couple of sick messages last night Today over 20 fantastic messages !!! Form good fellas I'm happy with that , he was an idiot before last Thursday and will be every Thursday till he meets his maker Sorry to hear that mate. It's ridiculous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaelicFox Posted 29 June 2016 Share Posted 29 June 2016 Sorry to hear that mate. It's ridiculous thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Doctor Posted 29 June 2016 Share Posted 29 June 2016 This ****ing stupid petition is at 4m signatures now. What do we just keep having referendums then? Idiots. Most of those have come from auto-signing scripts from kids on the internet with nothing better to do with their lives tbf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Facecloth Posted 29 June 2016 Share Posted 29 June 2016 I believe he has been banned I have a couple of sick messages last night Today over 20 fantastic messages !!! Form good fellas I'm happy with that , he was an idiot before last Thursday and will be every Thursday till he meets his maker Think my suspicion of who it is was right then based on the fact that person has suddenly stopped posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Boos Up Posted 29 June 2016 Share Posted 29 June 2016 Think my suspicion of who it is was right then based on the fact that person has suddenly stopped posting. Could you give us a clue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GingerrrFox Posted 29 June 2016 Share Posted 29 June 2016 Hope you are ok @@GaelicFox No place for scummy comments like you received, especially to a clearly decent fella like yourself. Also Ftse 100 hey gents?!?!? It's not all doom and gloom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaelicFox Posted 29 June 2016 Share Posted 29 June 2016 Hope you are ok @@GaelicFox No place for scummy comments like you received, especially to a clearly decent fella like yourself. Also Ftse 100 hey gents?!?!? It's not all doom and gloom. I'm totally fine If we had a PM that worked and an opposition we could count on then we would be very smug right now The markets are settling and the currency holding Interesting times ahead When do the borders get closed ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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