Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Captain...]

2 hours ago, MattP said:

I've never said everyone supports Hard Brexit. 

 

But a 220 majority to leave the single market in parliament shows exactly which way the wind is currently blowing.

 

I have no idea how you are dissolving this information and coming to the conclusion it means we are staying in.

 

Corbyn is now sacking people who vote to stay in it. Wake up and look at what is happening. 

I am pretty sure MPs are voting with their political careers in mind not their personal views and not what is best for the country. They know they will be crucified at the next GE for not respecting the will of the people and the next GE could be very soon.

 

For the same reason Corbyn is sacking front bench MPs. Whatever his personal views of Brexit he can't be seen to be going against the will of the people.

 

Ruth Cadbury is my MP and I respect her for having the courage of her convictions. She has always been anti-Brexit and whilst her constituency voted to remain it was only by 52:48 so not an overwhelming remain. Whether it will turn out to be political suicide we might find out very soon, but she still has my vote.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

 

The votes in Parliament don't really tell us much. If there are MP's that want a change of course on Brexit, they're better served by waiting until a firmer picture of what we might get comes out.

 

At the moment, everything is still up in the air. Give it 8-9 months worth of negotiations with all the briefings that will go both direct to camera and the ones behind closed doors, then we'll see how MP's and the public really feel.

 

 

This is about right

[Guest MattP]

48 minutes ago, Captain... said:

I am pretty sure MPs are voting with their political careers in mind not their personal views and not what is best for the country. They know they will be crucified at the next GE for not respecting the will of the people and the next GE could be very soon.

 

For the same reason Corbyn is sacking front bench MPs. Whatever his personal views of Brexit he can't be seen to be going against the will of the people.

 

Ruth Cadbury is my MP and I respect her for having the courage of her convictions. She has always been anti-Brexit and whilst her constituency voted to remain it was only by 52:48 so not an overwhelming remain. Whether it will turn out to be political suicide we might find out very soon, but she still has my vote.

If MP's wanted go represent their constituents the referendum should have been on the constituency rather than the popular vote.

 

Just imagine had we voted remain 51-49 but as more constituencies voted leave the MP's were going to take us out anyway as they are just representing them.

 

There would rightfully be outrage. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, toddybad said:

I've never said we're staying in, I've said some mps want to but the majority appear to favour a softer brexit. As i made clear earlier, soft brexit includes being outside thr single market with a tariff free trade deal imo. David Davis has said on numerous occassions that the tories want to see a trade agreement with all of the benefits of the single market. The labour position was very similar and added that they would consider the trade settlement (ie tariff free) above anything else. Neither of these, in my view, is shouting for a hard brexit. The caveat i would add is that the tory position has been confused several times by TM talking about no deal and immigration controls being more important than free trade or customs etc. This is the hard brexit talk i fear but which i have seen no evidence whatsoever to suggest has significant support in parliament.

Didn't fancy responding to this then?

51 minutes ago, MattP said:

If MP's wanted go represent their constituents the referendum should have been on the constituency rather than the popular vote.

 

Just imagine had we voted remain 51-49 but as more constituencies voted leave the MP's were going to take us out anyway as they are just representing them.

 

There would rightfully be outrage. 

But we are leaving. It's just that across the house the message is that it will be a Brexit that puts trade first and issues like immigration second. Diddums. 

 

There has never been a vote on the sort of Brexit - if you'd wanted the opportunity to have a say in that you would have voted for second referendum. As hardly anybody voted lib dem there clearly isn't the feeling within the country to force the politicians to do something they know would be suicidal. 

Edited 30 June 2017 by Guest

[Webbo]

Conservatives really are better looking, research says

 

A recently published study in the Journal of Public Economics concludes that the attractiveness of a candidate does correlate with their politics. They find that politicians on the right are more good looking in Europe, the United States and Australia.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/01/10/conservatives-really-are-better-looking-research-says/?utm_term=.c9c198bdf56e

 

[Buce]

1 minute ago, Webbo said:

Conservatives really are better looking, research says

 

A recently published study in the Journal of Public Economics concludes that the attractiveness of a candidate does correlate with their politics. They find that politicians on the right are more good looking in Europe, the United States and Australia.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/01/10/conservatives-really-are-better-looking-research-says/?utm_term=.c9c198bdf56e

 

 

Stands to reason, really.

 

They largely come from privileged backgrounds; men from privileged backgrounds can attract beautiful (but often intellectually challenged) women who are willing to trade their looks for financial security. Better looking mothers put their beauty into the gene pool. It's all just evolutionary selection.

 

It also explains why they're all so fvcking stupid..

[Webbo]

2 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Stands to reason, really.

 

They largely come from privileged backgrounds; men from privileged backgrounds can attract beautiful (but often intellectually challenged) women who are willing to trade their looks for financial security. Better looking mothers put their beauty into the gene pool. It's all just evolutionary selection.

 

It also explains why they're all so fvcking stupid..

But gorgeous.

[Buce]

1 minute ago, Webbo said:

But gorgeous.

 

 

Looks like Boris skipped a generation..

 

[Dirkster the Fox]

14 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Stands to reason, really.

 

They largely come from privileged backgrounds; men from privileged backgrounds can attract beautiful (but often intellectually challenged) women who are willing to trade their looks for financial security. Better looking mothers put their beauty into the gene pool. It's all just evolutionary selection.

 

It also explains why they're all so fvcking stupid..

? Buce + many others on this forum =

 

Chip on shoulder.

Edited 30 June 2017 by Dirkster the Fox

[Buce]

2 minutes ago, Dirkster the Fox said:

? Buce + many others on this forum =

 

Chip on shoulder.

 

Not at all, mate.

 

Just a bit of banter.

[Dirkster the Fox]

1 minute ago, Buce said:

 

Not at all, mate.

 

Just a bit of banter.

Mmmm ok fair enough. Read plenty of your previous posts though. Come across as another class warrior, but I guess I must be wrong then.

[Dirkster the Fox]

3 hours ago, toddybad said:

 

 

There has never been a vote on the sort of Brexit

Technically correct, but with convenient amnesia from the Remaniacs. They suggest those who wanted to leave were blinded during the weeks of build up to the vote, with a simple decision to leave. Wrong. Many including myself knew very well what type of Brexit we voted for and that was completely OUT. Single Market, custom Union, ECHR and so on. 

 

The play on words now claims this as hard Brexit. Again the remaniacs create an opposite position to suit their clinging on agenda, called soft Brexit.

 

Its very disingenuous to suggest through all the debates over weeks and weeks last year, everyone voted on just In/out and not what it actually meant.

[Buce]

Just now, Dirkster the Fox said:

Mmmm ok fair enough. Read plenty of your previous posts though. Come across as another class warrior, but I guess I must be wrong then.

 

Nope.

 

I come from a working class background, but I'm fortunate enough to enjoy a middle class lifestyle; personally, I have little or nothing to gain from a socialist government. My political beliefs stem from a heartfelt desire for social justice, nothing else.

 

You need to understand that although harsh words are sometimes exchanged in the political threads, it's not personal (at least not for my part), and there are very few of you that I actually dislike; indeed, one of the usual right-wing suspects is someone that I like and respect very much.

[Izzy]

15 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Nope.

 

I come from a working class background, but I'm fortunate enough to enjoy a middle class lifestyle; personally, I have little or nothing to gain from a socialist government. My political beliefs stem from a heartfelt desire for social justice, nothing else.

 

You need to understand that although harsh words are sometimes exchanged in the political threads, it's not personal (at least not for my part), and there are very few of you that I actually dislike; indeed, one of the usual right-wing suspects is someone that I like and respect very much.

I love you too man 

[Dr The Singh]

1 minute ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

I love you too man 

Sorry to burst your bubble, he is on about either Moosey or Dangerous Turd

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Dirkster the Fox said:

Technically correct, but with convenient amnesia from the Remaniacs. They suggest those who wanted to leave were blinded during the weeks of build up to the vote, with a simple decision to leave. Wrong. Many including myself knew very well what type of Brexit we voted for and that was completely OUT. Single Market, custom Union, ECHR and so on. 

 

The play on words now claims this as hard Brexit. Again the remaniacs create an opposite position to suit their clinging on agenda, called soft Brexit.

 

Its very disingenuous to suggest through all the debates over weeks and weeks last year, everyone voted on just In/out and not what it actually meant.

 

Most of the leavers i know voted out to "take back control" of law and immigration. I had not heard any discussion of the single market or customs union from any of them until very recently. 

 

I'm very pleased that you did know what you voted for. That's the best basis for any vote so i congratulate you for doing your due diligence.

 

Nowhere in my comments today have i suggested anybody voted without understanding their own reasons for voting. I've simply pointed out that the vote didn't specify exactly what brexit would mean (because we certainly can't assume all brexiteers had exactly the same reasons or understanding) and that, with the political class being so drawn to a soft version of brexit (with all mattp's myths about various votes debunked over the last few pages) it is highly unlikely that it will be a hard form which is chosen.

 

Tbh those of you that not only want out of the eu but would refuse to agree to a trade deal that gave any concessions (as ALL trade deals do) are extremists.

[Izzy]

Just now, Dr The Singh said:

Sorry to burst your bubble, he is on about either Moosey or Dangerous Turd

I think he means Webbo actually 

[Buce]

2 minutes ago, Dr The Singh said:

Sorry to burst your bubble, he is on about either Moosey or Dangerous Turd

 

Fvcking hell, Singhy, I'm not that laid back..

[Dirkster the Fox]

1 minute ago, Buce said:

 

1) socialist government.

 

2) You need to understand that although harsh words are sometimes exchanged in the political threads, it's not personal (at least not for my part), and there are very few of you that I actually dislike; indeed, one of the usual right-wing suspects is someone that I like and respect very much.

1) back in early May, I called Corbyn a Marxist / Sleeping Communist and I was vilified by a certain person(s) as so wrong I didn't belong on this forum. Well weeks later the common consensus everywhere now is he's clearly got strong Marxist tendencies/feelings. So you'd have got a Marxist Government on the 9th June, not socialism. Harder left. 

 

2) Everyone I know have said how nasty social media was during the build up to the election, particularly those spouting lefty comments about those on the right of the debate. I'm sorry to say but the left have been extremely nasty and what you say here is unusual and not the norm. Whilst I respect what you say here and genuinely glad to hear, the greater % of what I read on these forums (apart from about 2-3 other people) is left wing bile. Just an hiding an undercurrent of hatred with less reasoning across the spectrum of opinion.

 

The problem with with most on the left is they've bullied the debate so much since Momentum got hold of Labour, it's as if no other opinion can even be considered. Left is perfection. Right is evil.

 

This particular point has really got my ? up this election. 

 

Right / Left. Both have virtues, values, good, bad. Neither are without question or a perfect solution. 

[Dirkster the Fox]

8 minutes ago, toddybad said:

 

Most of the leavers i know voted out to "take back control" of law and immigration. I had not heard any discussion of the single market or customs union from any of them until very recently. 

 

I'm very pleased that you did know what you voted for. That's the best basis for any vote so i congratulate you for doing your due diligence.

 

Nowhere in my comments today have i suggested anybody voted without understanding their own reasons for voting. I've simply pointed out that the vote didn't specify exactly what brexit would mean (because we certainly can't assume all brexiteers had exactly the same reasons or understanding) and that, with the political class being so drawn to a soft version of brexit (with all mattp's myths about various votes debunked over the last few pages) it is highly unlikely that it will be a hard form which is chosen.

 

Tbh those of you that not only want out of the eu but would refuse to agree to a trade deal that gave any concessions (as ALL trade deals do) are extremists.

Mate I read your reply and (along with my last post to Buce seconds ago) was actually surprised you had a reasoned response. Seemed like you'd read what I'd said and constructed a decent enough thing in reply.

 

The you ended it by calling me an extremist. Typical lefty nasty language response.

 

you lot can't debate without sticking the knife in every time. 

 

Goodnight.

[Buce]

11 minutes ago, Dirkster the Fox said:

1) back in early May, I called Corbyn a Marxist / Sleeping Communist and I was vilified by a certain person(s) as so wrong I didn't belong on this forum. Well weeks later the common consensus everywhere now is he's clearly got strong Marxist tendencies/feelings. So you'd have got a Marxist Government on the 9th June, not socialism. Harder left. 

 

2) Everyone I know have said how nasty social media was during the build up to the election, particularly those spouting lefty comments about those on the right of the debate. I'm sorry to say but the left have been extremely nasty and what you say here is unusual and not the norm. Whilst I respect what you say here and genuinely glad to hear, the greater % of what I read on these forums (apart from about 2-3 other people) is left wing bile. Just an hiding an undercurrent of hatred with less reasoning across the spectrum of opinion.

 

The problem with with most on the left is they've bullied the debate so much since Momentum got hold of Labour, it's as if no other opinion can even be considered. Left is perfection. Right is evil.

 

This particular point has really got my ? up this election. 

 

Right / Left. Both have virtues, values, good, bad. Neither are without question or a perfect solution. 

 

I'm not answering for other people; you called me a class warrior with a chip on my shoulder, and I've answered you, far more politely than you deserved.

 

Re-read what you've just posted and ask yourself who is spouting bile.

Edited 30 June 2017 by Buce

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Dirkster the Fox said:

Mate I read your reply and (along with my last post to Buce seconds ago) was actually surprised you had a reasoned response. Seemed like you'd read what I'd said and constructed a decent enough thing in reply.

 

The you ended it by calling me an extremist. Typical lefty nasty language response.

 

you lot can't debate without sticking the knife in every time. 

 

Goodnight.

Lmao.

Your view is on the hard right of the debate. In terms of brexit it is an extreme view. 

[Dirkster the Fox]

2 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

I'm not answering for other people; you called me a class warrior with a chip on my shoulder, and I've answered you, far more politely than you deserved.

 

Re-read what you've just posted and ask yourself who is spouting bile.

But your earlier post was stereotyping class and that is a sign of a chip on the shoulder. Just the same as if I said (in context) all working class people are shit thick and work in factories.

 

ive not said that though Buce and never would. So I'm not a class warrior and again in that context I don't have a chip on my shoulder. 

 

Just like id vote for a toff in the manor or a miner in the pit, without a second thought if what they stood for reflects my own values.

[Guest]

Perhaps extremist was a tad harsh but here is why the hard right view will lead to calamity.

 

PM's European court stance has 'hamstrung' Brexit negotiations

 

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2017/jun/30/brexit-hamstrung-theresa-mays-absolutist-stance-european-court-exit

[Buce]

7 minutes ago, Dirkster the Fox said:

But your earlier post was stereotyping class and that is a sign of a chip on the shoulder. Just the same as if I said (in context) all working class people are shit thick and work in factories.

 

ive not said that though Buce and never would. So I'm not a class warrior and again in that context I don't have a chip on my shoulder. 

 

Just like id vote for a toff in the manor or a miner in the pit, without a second thought if what they stood for reflects my own values.

 

FFs, you plank, I was posting in the same light-hearted manner that Webbo was; does he have a chip on his shoulder too?

 

 

16 minutes ago, Dirkster the Fox said:

 

 

Goodnight.

 

Good choice.

 

Go and sleep it off.

Edited 30 June 2017 by Buce