Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Dirkster the Fox]

2 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Perhaps extremist was a tad harsh but here is why the hard right view will lead to calamity.

 

PM's European court stance has 'hamstrung' Brexit negotiations

 

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2017/jun/30/brexit-hamstrung-theresa-mays-absolutist-stance-european-court-exit

Goodnight toddybad. I'm off to have some extremist sleep.

 

maybe I'll wake up cured of my evil thoughts @-@ 

[Strokes]

3 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

FFs, you plank, I was posting in the same light-hearted manner that Webbo was; does he have a chip on his shoulder too?

 

 

 

Good choice.

 

Go and sleep it off.

 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Dirkster the Fox said:

Goodnight toddybad. I'm off to have some extremist sleep.

 

maybe I'll wake up cured of my evil thoughts @-@ 

If i'd used the word 'clowns' instead would you have got less offended?

[Dirkster the Fox]

1 hour ago, Buce said:

 

Stands to reason, really.

 

They largely come from privileged backgrounds; men from privileged backgrounds can attract beautiful (but often intellectually challenged) women who are willing to trade their looks for financial security. Better looking mothers put their beauty into the gene pool. It's all just evolutionary selection.

 

It also explains why they're all so fvcking stupid..

Stands to reason really.

 

They largely come from poor backgrounds; men from poor backgrounds can attract ugly (but often intellectually challenged) women who are willing to trade their ugliness for terrible financial security. Terrible looking mothers put their ugliness into the gene pool. It's just all evolutionary selection.

 

it also explains why they're all so fvucking stupid..

 

Just a lighthearted (sort of) spoonerism Buce.

[Guest]

[Alf Bentley]

5 hours ago, Captain... said:

I am pretty sure MPs are voting with their political careers in mind not their personal views and not what is best for the country. They know they will be crucified at the next GE for not respecting the will of the people and the next GE could be very soon.

 

For the same reason Corbyn is sacking front bench MPs. Whatever his personal views of Brexit he can't be seen to be going against the will of the people.

 

Ruth Cadbury is my MP and I respect her for having the courage of her convictions. She has always been anti-Brexit and whilst her constituency voted to remain it was only by 52:48 so not an overwhelming remain. Whether it will turn out to be political suicide we might find out very soon, but she still has my vote.

 

This is interesting re. the history of Corbyn's views on Europe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Jeremy_Corbyn#European_Union

 

Basically, he was a Brexit supporter or highly Eurosceptic for 40+ years (the entire duration of the EEC/EU)....then very half-heartedly supported Remain after becoming leader. Despite his long-held views, he pretty much had to make that tactical shift as the vast majority of his MPs and party members are pro-EU - and about 65% of Labour voters went Remain in the referendum.

 

The history of Euroscepticism on the Labour Left is too little understood. It was very strong in the 1970s & through to 1983 (when Corbyn first entered the scene). Kinnock rowed back from it in the 80s, then Labour became a mainly pro-EU party because of all the EU social measures introduced by Delors and because the EU seemed a much better option than British Thatcherism. For the last 25+ years, the Labour moderates and soft left have been overwhelmingly pro-EU. But the "Hard Left", particularly the Campaign Group (Benn, Corbyn & co) have remained Eurosceptic throughout. They've traditionally seen the EU as a pro-corporate, capitalist plot that would hinder any effort to introduce socialist policies in the UK - they're like a mirror image of the much larger group of Tory Eurosceptics. The Tory Right want out of the EU to get rid of EU bureaucratic control and have more free markets; the Labour Left want out to get rid of EU pro-corporate restrictions so as to have more socialism.

 

Some on the Left (e.g. Livingstone) have become more pro-EU, but there's little sign that Corbyn & McDonnell have. Because their MPs, membership & many Lab voters were pro-Remain, they couldn't express too much Euroscepticism during the referendum, but there's a reason why Corbyn was ambivalent and half-hearted during the referendum campaign, but committed and impressive during the election campaign. He must be thinking that this could all fall perfectly into his lap now. The Tories will take on Brexit and it will soon all be too far advanced for the Labour majority to push for Remain or very close ties, which would be awkward for him within his party. He'll hope to take power while retaining most of the EU social legislation but without all the neo-liberal restrictions. Personally, I think the days of "socialism in one country" are long gone in these days of global capital, but I assume that's his dream.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

This is interesting re. the history of Corbyn's views on Europe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Jeremy_Corbyn#European_Union

 

Basically, he was a Brexit supporter or highly Eurosceptic for 40+ years (the entire duration of the EEC/EU)....then very half-heartedly supported Remain after becoming leader. Despite his long-held views, he pretty much had to make that tactical shift as the vast majority of his MPs and party members are pro-EU - and about 65% of Labour voters went Remain in the referendum.

 

The history of Euroscepticism on the Labour Left is too little understood. It was very strong in the 1970s & through to 1983 (when Corbyn first entered the scene). Kinnock rowed back from it in the 80s, then Labour became a mainly pro-EU party because of all the EU social measures introduced by Delors and because the EU seemed a much better option than British Thatcherism. For the last 25+ years, the Labour moderates and soft left have been overwhelmingly pro-EU. But the "Hard Left", particularly the Campaign Group (Benn, Corbyn & co) have remained Eurosceptic throughout. They've traditionally seen the EU as a pro-corporate, capitalist plot that would hinder any effort to introduce socialist policies in the UK - they're like a mirror image of the much larger group of Tory Eurosceptics. The Tory Right want out of the EU to get rid of EU bureaucratic control and have more free markets; the Labour Left want out to get rid of EU pro-corporate restrictions so as to have more socialism.

 

Some on the Left (e.g. Livingstone) have become more pro-EU, but there's little sign that Corbyn & McDonnell have. Because their MPs, membership & many Lab voters were pro-Remain, they couldn't express too much Euroscepticism during the referendum, but there's a reason why Corbyn was ambivalent and half-hearted during the referendum campaign, but committed and impressive during the election campaign. He must be thinking that this could all fall perfectly into his lap now. The Tories will take on Brexit and it will soon all be too far advanced for the Labour majority to push for Remain or very close ties, which would be awkward for him within his party. He'll hope to take power while retaining most of the EU social legislation but without all the neo-liberal restrictions. Personally, I think the days of "socialism in one country" are long gone in these days of global capital, but I assume that's his dream.

It'll be interesting finding out that's for sure!

[Guest MattP]

8 hours ago, toddybad said:

Most of the leavers i know voted out to "take back control" of law and immigration. I had not heard any discussion of the single market or customs union from any of them until very recently. 

If they voted to take back control of law and immigration then they voted to leave the single market - not a single politician I've heard from here or the continent has said any of the four pillars are up for reform or re-negotiation.

 

If there is any evidence suggesting otherwise I'd be delighted to see it.

 

6 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

This is interesting re. the history of Corbyn's views on Europe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Jeremy_Corbyn#European_Union

 

Basically, he was a Brexit supporter or highly Eurosceptic for 40+ years (the entire duration of the EEC/EU)....then very half-heartedly supported Remain after becoming leader. Despite his long-held views, he pretty much had to make that tactical shift as the vast majority of his MPs and party members are pro-EU - and about 65% of Labour voters went Remain in the referendum.

 

The history of Euroscepticism on the Labour Left is too little understood. It was very strong in the 1970s & through to 1983 (when Corbyn first entered the scene). Kinnock rowed back from it in the 80s, then Labour became a mainly pro-EU party because of all the EU social measures introduced by Delors and because the EU seemed a much better option than British Thatcherism. For the last 25+ years, the Labour moderates and soft left have been overwhelmingly pro-EU. But the "Hard Left", particularly the Campaign Group (Benn, Corbyn & co) have remained Eurosceptic throughout. They've traditionally seen the EU as a pro-corporate, capitalist plot that would hinder any effort to introduce socialist policies in the UK - they're like a mirror image of the much larger group of Tory Eurosceptics. The Tory Right want out of the EU to get rid of EU bureaucratic control and have more free markets; the Labour Left want out to get rid of EU pro-corporate restrictions so as to have more socialism.

 

Some on the Left (e.g. Livingstone) have become more pro-EU, but there's little sign that Corbyn & McDonnell have. Because their MPs, membership & many Lab voters were pro-Remain, they couldn't express too much Euroscepticism during the referendum, but there's a reason why Corbyn was ambivalent and half-hearted during the referendum campaign, but committed and impressive during the election campaign. He must be thinking that this could all fall perfectly into his lap now. The Tories will take on Brexit and it will soon all be too far advanced for the Labour majority to push for Remain or very close ties, which would be awkward for him within his party. He'll hope to take power while retaining most of the EU social legislation but without all the neo-liberal restrictions. Personally, I think the days of "socialism in one country" are long gone in these days of global capital, but I assume that's his dream.

Good post that explains his position perfectly.

 

His Facebook page is well worth a read at the minute, some Corbynistas are upset but the vast majority of them are still firming behind him, the line being peddled and re-cycled now by a lot is that "Hard Brexit" is "no deal" rather than leaving the single market - so its possible his supporters are going to rally behind leaving the single market and the customs union if push comes to shove.

 

Jeremy Corbyn is fast becoming a hero of the Brexit movement. 

Edited 1 July 2017 by MattP

[katieakita]

Will certainly be interesting and difficult times ahead. Being rather simplistic cannot really understand why firstly the government has not made the negotiations with the EU  cross party which has so more advantages than disadvantages and also spreads any blame and also why so little has been made of the financial position of many EU members. Maybe someone in plain English can explain what the EU's future plans are for dealing with the financial issues in most of their members states from Eastern Europe and the Mediterranean because something has to give 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

If they voted to take back control of law and immigration then they voted to leave the single market - not a single politician I've heard from here or the continent has said any of the four pillars are up for reform or re-negotiation.

 

If there is any evidence suggesting otherwise I'd be delighted to see it.

 

Good post that explains his position perfectly.

 

His Facebook page is well worth a read at the minute, some Corbynistas are upset but the vast majority of them are still firming behind him, the line being peddled and re-cycled now by a lot is that "Hard Brexit" is "no deal" rather than leaving the single market - so its possible his supporters are going to rally behind leaving the single market and the customs union if push comes to shove.

 

Jeremy Corbyn is fast becoming a hero of the Brexit movement. 

By saying that he'll definitely do a deal and will put trade considerations before everything else.

[Guest MattP]

2 minutes ago, toddybad said:

By saying that he'll definitely do a deal and will put trade considerations before everything else.

No, by sacking people who want to try and force the government to stay in the single market. 

 

Like he just did two days ago.

[Guest]

51 minutes ago, katieakita said:

Will certainly be interesting and difficult times ahead. Being rather simplistic cannot really understand why firstly the government has not made the negotiations with the EU  cross party which has so more advantages than disadvantages and also spreads any blame and also why so little has been made of the financial position of many EU members. Maybe someone in plain English can explain what the EU's future plans are for dealing with the financial issues in most of their members states from Eastern Europe and the Mediterranean because something has to give 

The eu's plan is for closer financial integration. With greece, for example, it is clearly in trouble but this has been exacerbated  by the fact it is in the euro asked wasn't able to adjust its own monetary policy when the threat emerged. The eu would almost attack the problem from the other end.  I suppose the theory is that by aligning economies towards a federalised economy (not at first but federalism is clearly the eu end goal) things should be more homogenous across the eu so that a single monetary policy was less problematic. I haven't really explained this last bit very well tbf. 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, MattP said:

No, by sacking people who want to try and force the government to stay in the single market. 

 

Like he just did two days ago.

Yes. You seem to be operating under the illusion that tories that voted against the labour amendments on brexit or public sector pay did so because they really, really believed in what they were voting for. Or that corbyn has sacked anybody for any crime beyond not voting with the whip. 

 

Aa I've said, the only real issue us remainers had was what brexit would do to is economically (this was after all the entire thrust of the remain campaign). If we get tariff free trade - labour's number one priority - then our concerns are largely met. 

 

Again, I'm not sure why you're so desperate for people to call this a hard brexit. It's like you'd win a prize at the fair or something. Under the labour plans i'd be happy and you'd be annoyed that immigration reform and freedom from the ECJ would be given up in favout of free trade.

[Guest MattP]

7 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Yes. You seem to be operating under the illusion that tories that voted against the labour amendments on brexit or public sector pay did so because they really, really believed in what they were voting for. Or that corbyn has sacked anybody for any crime beyond not voting with the whip. 

 

Aa I've said, the only real issue us remainers had was what brexit would do to is economically (this was after all the entire thrust of the remain campaign). If we get tariff free trade - labour's number one priority - then our concerns are largely met. 

 

Again, I'm not sure why you're so desperate for people to call this a hard brexit. It's like you'd win a prize at the fair or something. Under the labour plans i'd be happy and you'd be annoyed that immigration reform and freedom from the ECJ would be given up in favout of free trade.

What Labour plans are these? You must have read a completely different manifesto to me.

 

The exact wording from it - "freedom of movement must end" - where is any evidence that you are prepared to trade that away? 

 

Unfortunately you are in the same position as the 50 odd backbenchers, you've lost a war you are somehow convinced is still ongoing.

[Guest]

Bored of going round in circles with you mattp. If you're wrong we'll never hear the end of it from you but I'll enjoy gloating at your annoyance. If you're right the country's ****ed so I'll enjoy watching you spend a lifetime trying to defend in indefensible. 

 

Anyway

 

 

Forget austerity, here’s who is to blame for your empty pockets

 

https://www.theguardian.com/money/blog/2017/jul/01/forget-austerity-government-cuts-profiteering-private-companies

 

[Guest MattP]

1 hour ago, toddybad said:

Bored of going round in circles with you mattp. If you're wrong we'll never hear the end of it from you but I'll enjoy gloating at your annoyance. If you're right the country's ****ed so I'll enjoy watching you spend a lifetime trying to defend in indefensible. 

 

Anyway

 

 

Forget austerity, here’s who is to blame for your empty pockets

 

https://www.theguardian.com/money/blog/2017/jul/01/forget-austerity-government-cuts-profiteering-private-companies

 

Because you can't answer, you can't bring yourself to admit your man Corbyn is actually a eurosceptic.

 

My empty pockets? Well if it's been written by a Guardian columnist it must be true. 

Edited 1 July 2017 by MattP

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, MattP said:

Because you can't answer, you can't bring yourself to admit you Corbyn is actually a eurosceptic.

 

My empty pockets? Well if it's been written by a Guardian columnist it must be true. 

Your pockets might not be empty but mine are. Presumably something you're happy about as you cheerlead your parties continued cap on my earnings. 3% rise (3 years of 1%) in the last 7 years. 

 

Corbyn has always been a eurosceptic. But every time he's spoken about the issue of the deal he's talked of putting trade and jobs first. That's as much as any remainer can hope for at this stage. He was wooly as **** about immigration reform - i doubt very much that you think he'd pull up the drawbridge because i certainly don't believe that. Anyway, i am seriously bored of this circular discussion as we're not getting anywhere and neither of us are giving any ground. Let's just see what happens 

Edited 1 July 2017 by Guest

[The Guvnor]

10 hours ago, toddybad said:

 

Most of the leavers i know voted out to "take back control" of law and immigration. I had not heard any discussion of the single market or customs union from any of them until very recently. 

 

I'm very pleased that you did know what you voted for. That's the best basis for any vote so i congratulate you for doing your due diligence.

 

Nowhere in my comments today have i suggested anybody voted without understanding their own reasons for voting. I've simply pointed out that the vote didn't specify exactly what brexit would mean (because we certainly can't assume all brexiteers had exactly the same reasons or understanding) and that, with the political class being so drawn to a soft version of brexit (with all mattp's myths about various votes debunked over the last few pages) it is highly unlikely that it will be a hard form which is chosen.

 

Tbh those of you that not only want out of the eu but would refuse to agree to a trade deal that gave any concessions (as ALL trade deals do) are extremists.

 

I admire your resolution, but come on really, did they not listen to David Cameron pre vote, or any of the Brexit campaigners debates, and there were plenty. The leavers you are referring to may have had those individual elements as their primary reasons for wanting to leave but there was no ambiguity at all on leaving the single market and the customs union, this has to be the single most annoying thing continuously spouted by those who voted to remain.  

[Buce]

18 minutes ago, The Guvnor said:

 

I admire your resolution, but come on really, did they not listen to David Cameron pre vote, or any of the Brexit campaigners debates, and there were plenty. The leavers you are referring to may have had those individual elements as their primary reasons for wanting to leave but there was no ambiguity at all on leaving the single market and the customs union, this has to be the single most annoying thing continuously spouted by those who voted to remain.  

 

Whether you like to accept it, or not, there were plenty of Brexit voters who voted on the single issue of immigration, and had no interest - or understanding - of any other issue. My own in-laws, like many of their demographic (elderly, uneducated, low intelligence, xenophobic) voted Leave solely based on the lie that Turkey was being fast-tracked into the EU.

[Guest MattP]

1 minute ago, Buce said:

Whether you like to accept it, or not, there were plenty of Brexit voters who voted on the single issue of immigration, and had no interest - or understanding - of any other issue. My own in-laws, like many of their demographic (elderly, uneducated, low intelligence, xenophobic) voted Leave solely based on the lie that Turkey was being fast-tracked into the EU.

Works both ways.

 

I know people who voted remain because they feared the emergency budget, that refugee camps were going to spring up in Kent and we would be a back of the queue for a trade deal with the US.

 

It wasn't a great debate.

[Buce]

Just now, MattP said:

Works both ways.

 

I know people who voted remain because they feared the emergency budget, that refugee camps were going to spring up in Kent and we would be a back of the queue for a trade deal with the US.

 

It wasn't a great debate.

 

Indeed.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, MattP said:

Works both ways.

 

I know people who voted remain because they feared the emergency budget, that refugee camps were going to spring up in Kent and we would be a back of the queue for a trade deal with the US.

 

It wasn't a great debate.

It still isn't. 

[Innovindil]

We were told loudly and repeatedly that leaving the eu meant leaving the single market and customs union. Anyone even suggesting a vote for brexit didn't mean a vote to leave these things is living in cuckoo land. 

 

There isn't a soft or hard or poached or fried brexit. There's just brexit, and there's a remainers stayit. 

[The Guvnor]

4 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Whether you like to accept it, or not, there were plenty of Brexit voters who voted on the single issue of immigration, and had no interest - or understanding - of any other issue. My own in-laws, like many of their demographic (elderly, uneducated, low intelligence, xenophobic) voted Leave solely based on the lie that Turkey was being fast-tracked into the EU.

 

Here we go again a ridiculous attempt to try and label anyone who voted leave as not fit to vote due to their racist pre disposition or inferior intellect to all those refreshingly bright liberalist remainers. 

Or are you just a willy puller?

[Buce]

15 minutes ago, The Guvnor said:

 

Here we go again a ridiculous attempt to try and label anyone who voted leave as not fit to vote due to their racist pre disposition or inferior intellect to all those refreshingly bright liberalist remainers. 

Or are you just a willy puller?

 

You have misunderstood me.

 

I was referring specifically to a particular demographic, a demographic that took little or no interest in the wider debate and voted on a single issue (in this case, immigration). You might have noted (except it doesn't suit your narrative) that I agreed with @MattP that that was true of some people on both sides of the debate.

 

Try reading what is actually said instead of playing at being a keyboard warrior.