Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Guest]

It's open season within the Tory party isn't it? Kinda amusing watching them falling apart in slo-mo.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/02/boris-johnson-lift-1-ceiling-on-public-sector-pay-increases

[Strokes]

2 hours ago, toddybad said:

Reality hits

 

British officials drop 'cake and eat it' approach to Brexit negotiations

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/02/british-officials-drop-cake-and-eat-it-approach-to-brexit-negotiations?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

Yeah, so it's like we told you months ago it would be?

You start over one side negotiating and hopefully meet somewhere In the middle, just think of all the outrage you've wasted.

[Strokes]

21 minutes ago, toddybad said:

It's open season within the Tory party isn't it? Kinda amusing watching them falling apart in slo-mo.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/02/boris-johnson-lift-1-ceiling-on-public-sector-pay-increases

 be careful what you wish for. I remember the labour leadership battle being celebrated by tories because Jeremy Corbyn would never get elected. They aren't laughing now.

If you support Labour, your best hope is if May stays. A Tory Leadership change, means they can can alter the approach completely and could regain themselves. But hey whatever tickles you.

[Guest]

This is how I feel when trying to debate with Tories too

 

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, Strokes said:

 be careful what you wish for. I remember the labour leadership battle being celebrated by tories because Jeremy Corbyn would never get elected. They aren't laughing now.

If you support Labour, your best hope is if May stays. A Tory Leadership change, means they can can alter the approach completely and could regain themselves. But hey whatever tickles you.

I support what is best for the country.

It just so happens that, at this moment, that is Labour. 

 

As an aside, I just found this Youtube clip of Cameron in opposition against Blair. Blair looking old by comparison towards the end of his tenure. Interesting to watch in light of what came after. Blair was spot on about the Tory NHS plans and Cameron carping on about Labour cuts to services is almost offensive now.

 

 

Edited 2 July 2017 by Guest

[Innovindil]

7 minutes ago, toddybad said:

I support what is best for the country.

It just so happens that, at this moment, that is Labour. 

 

As an aside, I just found this Youtube clip of Cameron in opposition against Blair. Blair looking old by comparison towards the end of his tenure. Interesting to watch in light of what came after. Blair was spot on about the Tory NHS plans and Cameron carping on about Labour cuts to services is almost offensive now.

 

 

Best for who in the country? 

 

I can guarantee you labour isn't the best for me. Not even remotely. 

[Strokes]

7 minutes ago, toddybad said:

I support what is best for the country.

It just so happens that, at this moment, that is Labour. 

 

As an aside, I just found this Youtube clip of Cameron in opposition against Blair. Blair looking old by comparison towards the end of his tenure. Interesting to watch in light of what came after. Blair was spot on about the Tory NHS plans and Cameron carping on about Labour cuts to services is almost offensive now.

 

 

Blair was cutting then when the finances were in a good state, however Labour didn't hand them the baton in the same position did they? 

As for the privatisation of the NHS  seriously nudge me when it happens, it's been 7 years now and we don't seem much closer.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

Best for who in the country? 

 

I can guarantee you labour isn't the best for me. Not even remotely. 

Definitely best for me. So 1-1. 

Although once recession hits I suggest you'll be thinking it's 2-0 to me. Just wait if nothing changes. But it will, because the Tories will be throwing everything at being Labour-lite now. 

 

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

Blair was cutting then when the finances were in a good state, however Labour didn't hand them the baton in the same position did they? 

As for the privatisation of the NHS  seriously nudge me when it happens, it's been 7 years now and we don't seem much closer.

Whist it's true that most core acute and mental health services within Leicestershire haven't been contracted to private companies (the Trust have a strong grip over these services and there hasn't been much private sector incursion in Leicestershire yet), the Trusts providing those services do have to spend time and money winning those contracts now - Tory led waste.

Also, if you look carefully you'll see that a range of private contractors are working within the Leicestershire health economy. If you live in the North of the country look out of Derbyshire Health United emblazoned vehicles. If you ring the 111 service this is run by DHU 111. 

The major acute Trust sends overflow patients into private hospitals because it doesn't have enough beds or staff (and its doctors have 2nd jobs working for these private hospitals). 

I'd suggest you aren't actually looking (but are commenting nevertheless). 

[Guest Kopfkino]

I miss Call-Me-Dave 

[Innovindil]

24 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Definitely best for me. So 1-1. 

Although once recession hits I suggest you'll be thinking it's 2-0 to me. Just wait if nothing changes. But it will, because the Tories will be throwing everything at being Labour-lite now. 

 

Whist it's true that most core acute and mental health services within Leicestershire haven't been contracted to private companies (the Trust have a strong grip over these services and there hasn't been much private sector incursion in Leicestershire yet), the Trusts providing those services do have to spend time and money winning those contracts now - Tory led waste.

Also, if you look carefully you'll see that a range of private contractors are working within the Leicestershire health economy. If you live in the North of the country look out of Derbyshire Health United emblazoned vehicles. If you ring the 111 service this is run by DHU 111. 

The major acute Trust sends overflow patients into private hospitals because it doesn't have enough beds or staff (and its doctors have 2nd jobs working for these private hospitals). 

I'd suggest you aren't actually looking (but are commenting nevertheless). 

Can you give me a date for this recession please? I'd like to plan ahead. 

[Strokes]

1 hour ago, toddybad said:

Definitely best for me. So 1-1. 

Although once recession hits I suggest you'll be thinking it's 2-0 to me. Just wait if nothing changes. But it will, because the Tories will be throwing everything at being Labour-lite now. 

 

Whist it's true that most core acute and mental health services within Leicestershire haven't been contracted to private companies (the Trust have a strong grip over these services and there hasn't been much private sector incursion in Leicestershire yet), the Trusts providing those services do have to spend time and money winning those contracts now - Tory led waste.

Also, if you look carefully you'll see that a range of private contractors are working within the Leicestershire health economy. If you live in the North of the country look out of Derbyshire Health United emblazoned vehicles. If you ring the 111 service this is run by DHU 111. 

The major acute Trust sends overflow patients into private hospitals because it doesn't have enough beds or staff (and its doctors have 2nd jobs working for these private hospitals). 

I'd suggest you aren't actually looking (but are commenting nevertheless). 

Oh god forbid private contractors work in the NHS, omg the world is falling in. Doctors having second jobs working in the private sector is not a new phenomenon, it's been happening for decades. So a 111 service is ran by DHU, wow!

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Innovindil said:

Can you give me a date for this recession please? I'd like to plan ahead. 

Well with growth at 0.2% in the last quarter outs only going to take a miniscule drop in confidence to see two quarters of negative growth. 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Strokes said:

Oh god forbid private contractors work in the NHS, omg the world is falling in. Doctors having second jobs working in the private sector is not a new phenomenon, it's been happening for decades. So a 111 service is ran by DHU, wow!

As i said, not much incursion into Leicestershire. 

[Innovindil]

1 hour ago, toddybad said:

Well with growth at 0.2% in the last quarter outs only going to take a miniscule drop in confidence to see two quarters of negative growth. 

So sometime between now and never? 

 

Not very helpful 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

So sometime between now and never? 

 

Not very helpful 

Growth is extremely low already, wages are falling, inflation is rising and personal debt at near record levels. Without the government intervening to put money into the economy - although i suspect they might now they're under pressure - these are the signs of a gathering storm. 

 

After weeks on here i understand nobody is going to change their position no matter the argument but you can't seriously say that the economy looks to be in good shape at the moment?

Edited 3 July 2017 by Guest

[Innovindil]

33 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Growth is extremely low already, wages are falling, inflation is rising and personal debt at near record levels. Without the government intervening to put money into the economy - although i suspect they might now they're under pressure - these are the signs of a gathering storm. 

 

After weeks on here i understand nobody is going to change their position no matter the argument but you can't seriously say that the economy looks to be in good shape at the moment?

Don't worry lad, the tories will see us through. 

[Buce]

6 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

Don't worry lad, the tories will see us through. 

 

If you hurry they might still have some left. Lad.

 

Edited 3 July 2017 by Buce

[David Guiza]

9 hours ago, Innovindil said:

Best for who in the country? 

 

I can guarantee you labour isn't the best for me. Not even remotely. 

 

You're making the game of 'Spot the Tory' far too easy. 

Edited 3 July 2017 by David Guiza

[Innovindil]

1 hour ago, David Guiza said:

 

You're making the game of 'Spot the Tory' far too easy. 

Yeah, heaven forbid we should look after ourselves and not expect handouts 

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

Yeah, heaven forbid we should look after ourselves and not expect handouts 

So if your vote isn't determined by handout, what specific labour policy would be worse for you?

[Guest MattP]

22 hours ago, Buce said:

Whatever happened to trusting the Tories with the economy?

 

Another myth exploded.

To be fair they have done a pretty good job of deficit reduction, when they took over it was about 150billion and it's come down to about 50 billion, the real problem is was Gideon's targets, in hindsight it absolutely ludicrous to suggest that it could be cut out by 2015, impossible and it's given ammunition to people to criticise even when they have no intention of getting back into some sort of fiscal stability.

 

(Ignore the graph for upcoming years as that's out the window now but its accurate for where we are)

 

 

They do have to be careful though, the idea that the Tories can just start splurging because the electorate have demanded it isn't one that should be entertained., the long term impact of that could be disastrous though for the country, no political party should ever put itself before the nation.

 

22 hours ago, toddybad said:

Well thank god you're not in charge matt. Taking that action would send us tumbling into a recession we'd struggle to come out of with even higher personal debts, collapsed public services, mass unemployment and no economic levers to save ourself. What you've just proposed would be national suicide even beyond brexit. Honestly, that is the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen presented as serious political opinion. 

That's your opinion, there is absolute zero evidence at all it would send us into a recession.

 

Don't forget for every job lost in the public sector vastly more have been created in the private sector in almost every quarter we have had, so why you get the impression this would create mass umemployment baffles me? -  https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/publicsectorpersonnel/bulletins/publicsectoremployment/2015-06-17 You are calling it national suicide based on a load of opinions that there is no basis for.

 

Give us your plan for the future, me KingGTF and Webbo keep asking you this but you never provide anything, what country is the prototype for your tax, borrow and spend regime? (and please don't give me the Scandic example as populations, currency and GDP isn't anything like ours)

 

22 hours ago, toddybad said:

Only a little. 

Cutting the public sector further would see a breakdown in those services. Unemployment would go up as public sector workers are laid off and the private sector would face reductions in public sector procurement and spend by public sector workers. It would hit the whole economy. 

This obsession with the deficit is crazy. Being prepared to destroy public services is crazy.

It's amazing you can complain in the post above about not having any any economic levers to save the country with and then in the next one basically openly admit you don't even care about how much the country spends, borrows or owes, you do realise if the deficit and debt went high enough we wont have a public sector left? Is that what you want? Are you prepared to do that?

 

Have a look at Japan at the minute, a country that was absolutely booming in the 1980's and 90's - they now have the highest debt to GDP in the World are having to privatise many things including the postal service (although that's partly due to the Earthquake's as well) something that was inconceivable a while back - they now have only just over a million works in the public sector. This is what happens even in developed economies when debt gets out of control.

 

11 hours ago, toddybad said:

It's open season within the Tory party isn't it? Kinda amusing watching them falling apart in slo-mo.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/02/boris-johnson-lift-1-ceiling-on-public-sector-pay-increases

You have just had a midweek vote where 50 odd Labour rebels defied the whip and you think it's in the Tory party falling apart in slow-mo because they are pushing to lift a pay cap we know is going to be abolished anyway in the Autumn statement?

[Steven]

How is Brexit and the Tories working out? Pretty crap really. 

 

UK factories lose pace as exports slow despite weaker pound

https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-britain-economy-pmi-idUKKBN19O0YZ

[Buce]

2 minutes ago, Steven said:

How is Brexit and the Tories working out? Pretty crap really. 

 

UK factories lose pace as exports slow despite weaker pound

https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-britain-economy-pmi-idUKKBN19O0YZ

 

Yeah, but you can't overstate the value of having a blue passport..

[Strokes]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

To be fair they have done a pretty good job of deficit reduction, when they took over it was about 150billion and it's come down to about 50 billion, the real problem is was Gideon's targets, in hindsight it absolutely ludicrous to suggest that it could be cut out by 2015, impossible and it's given ammunition to people to criticise even when they have no intention of getting back into some sort of fiscal stability.

 

(Ignore the graph for upcoming years as that's out the window now but its accurate for where we are)

 

 

They do have to be careful though, the idea that the Tories can just start splurging because the electorate have demanded it isn't one that should be entertained., the long term impact of that could be disastrous though for the country, no political party should ever put itself before the nation.

 

That's your opinion, there is absolute zero evidence at all it would send us into a recession.

 

Don't forget for every job lost in the public sector vastly more have been created in the private sector in almost every quarter we have had, so why you get the impression this would create mass umemployment baffles me? -  https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/publicsectorpersonnel/bulletins/publicsectoremployment/2015-06-17 You are calling it national suicide based on a load of opinions that there is no basis for.

 

Give us your plan for the future, me KingGTF and Webbo keep asking you this but you never provide anything, what country is the prototype for your tax, borrow and spend regime? (and please don't give me the Scandic example as populations, currency and GDP isn't anything like ours)

 

It's amazing you can complain in the post above about not having any any economic levers to save the country with and then in the next one basically openly admit you don't even care about how much the country spends, borrows or owes, you do realise if the deficit and debt went high enough we wont have a public sector left? Is that what you want? Are you prepared to do that?

 

Have a look at Japan at the minute, a country that was absolutely booming in the 1980's and 90's - they now have the highest debt to GDP in the World are having to privatise many things including the postal service (although that's partly due to the Earthquake's as well) something that was inconceivable a while back - they now have only just over a million works in the public sector. This is what happens even in developed economies when debt gets out of control.

 

You have just had a midweek vote where 50 odd Labour rebels defied the whip and you think it's in the Tory party falling apart in slow-mo because they are pushing to lift a pay cap we know is going to be abolished anyway in the Autumn statement?

I wonder where the tipping point for the national debt lies for @toddybad, at what point do we say that's too much debt? 2t, 4t or 10t? What happens if we have another global financial crisis (which we have established are beyond our control) at the tip of this spending spree and the money doesn't stimulate? Spend a bit more?

[David Guiza]

1 hour ago, Innovindil said:

Yeah, heaven forbid we should look after ourselves and not expect handouts 

Ahh, that's where i'm going wrong. See I thought there were more people/groups whom policies affected than just me/you and benefit scroungers. Apologies.