Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Webbo]

3 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

As we enter our 2nd decade of unnecessary wage cuts thanks to continuing Tory economic incompetence, I can’t help but wonder what the history books will make of this era. Why were people willing to even consider voting for a party with a record of such comprehensive failure over such a long period? How is it that a party delivering the worst record on wage growth in recorded history, far worse than any other comparable nation on the entire planet, can even continue to exist never mind nearly win elections? These really are weird, cucky times we live in.

Perhaps those people looked at the alternative?

[Rogstanley]

18 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Perhaps those people looked at the alternative?

Or more likely that’s precisely what they didn’t do, preferring instead to blindly believe Tory propaganda and dismiss anything that didn’t fit the narrative.

 

I think it’ll be a lesson in how easily some people are controlled; how docile and subservient some people are willing to become as long as it means they don’t have to admit they were wrong.

[Strokes]

1 minute ago, Rogstanley said:

Or more likely that’s precisely what they didn’t do, preferring instead to blindly believe Tory propaganda and dismiss anything that didn’t fit the narrative.

 

I think it’ll be a lesson in how easily some people are controlled; how docile and subservient some people are willing to become as long as it means they don’t have to admit they were wrong.

[Webbo]

3 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

Or more likely that’s precisely what they didn’t do, preferring instead to blindly believe Tory propaganda and dismiss anything that didn’t fit the narrative.

 

I think it’ll be a lesson in how easily some people are controlled; how docile and subservient some people are willing to become as long as it means they don’t have to admit they were wrong.

You choose to believe we're all living on the breadline despite the fact that none of us are, perhaps it's you who's controlled? If you're daft enough to believe that Corbyns failed 1970s policies will improve things you'll believe anything.

[Rogstanley]

1 minute ago, Webbo said:

You choose to believe we're all living on the breadline despite the fact that none of us are, perhaps it's you who's controlled? If you're daft enough to believe that Corbyns failed 1970s policies will improve things you'll believe anything.

I haven’t said anything about a breadline. Wages have been falling throughout this Tory government’s reign while the rich are benefitting from massive increases to their wealth. I don’t need to exaggerate, it’s the worst record on wage growth in modern history and one of the worst records in the comparable world.

 

As for Corbyn’s social democracy, those policies are succeeding presently in places like Scandinavia. Other countries are currently enjoying massive success by reversing austerity. The Tory propaganda machine doesn’t want you believing in these facts, so you don’t. So easily controlled.

[Webbo]

4 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

I haven’t said anything about a breadline. Wages have been falling throughout this Tory government’s reign while the rich are benefitting from massive increases to their wealth. I don’t need to exaggerate, it’s the worst record on wage growth in modern history and one of the worst records in the comparable world.

 

As for Corbyn’s social democracy, those policies are succeeding presently in places like Scandinavia. Other countries are currently enjoying massive success by reversing austerity. The Tory propaganda machine doesn’t want you believing in these facts, so you don’t. So easily controlled.

And yet up until this year we had the fastest growth in the G7. Obviously you're going to be selective with your facts, we all do it, but don't expect anyone to believe you. 

[Rogstanley]

5 minutes ago, Webbo said:

And yet up until this year we had the fastest growth in the G7. Obviously you're going to be selective with your facts, we all do it, but don't expect anyone to believe you. 

It’s not me that you have to believe on wage growth, it’s the ONS - they produce the stats.

 

As for “growth”, presume you mean GDP, which I couldn’t care less about. Increase the population, hey presto GDP goes up. Brilliant. But how have you actually benefitted? Answer: you haven’t. 

 

Wages have been dropping like a stone, they’re still going down, and are forecast to go down even more, yet you think anyone cares about GDP? Deluded.

 

Strokes is right though, this is boring, we’ve been over this many times and you have previously admitted that you will never change your mind even when you’re categorically proven to be wrong, so this is all a bit of a waste of time.

[Guest Kopfkino]

26 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

As for Corbyn’s social democracy, those policies are succeeding presently in places like Scandinavia. Other countries are currently enjoying massive success by reversing austerity. 

 

The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it's the illusion of knowledge.

[Webbo]

22 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

It’s not me that you have to believe on wage growth, it’s the ONS - they produce the stats.

 

As for “growth”, presume you mean GDP, which I couldn’t care less about. Increase the population, hey presto GDP goes up. Brilliant. But how have you actually benefitted? Answer: you haven’t. 

 

Wages have been dropping like a stone, they’re still going down, and are forecast to go down even more, yet you think anyone cares about GDP? Deluded.

 

Strokes is right though, this is boring, we’ve been over this many times and you have previously admitted that you will never change your mind even when you’re categorically proven to be wrong, so this is all a bit of a waste of time.

You don't believe this crap anymore than I do.

[SMX11]

I assume the magic cure for this issue from the left is to raise the minimum wage? Heck why don't we raise it to £100 an hour, everyone will be rich right?  This will surely be accompanied by a huge spending binge on anything that is politically popular. I'm sorry but there is no easy solution to this issue. Wages only can rise if you are producing more stuff per hour than you used to and consequently improving the profit margin of companies in which it can then invest in wages, training, capital goods (plant, equipment etc) to further improve the employees productivity. There are many factors why this hasn't happened in my opinion such as:

 

• Inadvertently 'Zombifying' the economy after the crash by having Zero Interest Rate Policy (ZIRP) to save failing companies to understandably try to maintain employment. This also hammers the pension funds.
• Government policy that directly or indirectly increases costs (Energy policy being one of the major ones)
• Increasing the tax burden - stealthy through not moving tax brackets in line with inflation while adding additional burdens on small business (rates, pensions and other regulation).
• General poor standard of education over the past decade or two coupled with the huge subsidisation of Universities meaning a lot young people don't get vital on the job skills.
• Mass immigration has had a small effect of depressing wages and has encouraged companies to 'throw labour at it' rather than training and investing in plant etc.

 

I don't see any party really addressing these points significantly other than some rhetoric. This is all in the backdrop the reality that in a decade or so the government will be spending a huge % of GDP on debt interest payments and will not be able to fund pensions, welfare and public services at the current level. The Conservatives have made slow progress with this issue and deliberately not addressed the elephant in the room that is pensions and the long term solutions for health funding for because they would be panned at the polls. The populace will have to wake up to these realities sooner rather than later.

 

 

 

 

 

[Rogstanley]

25 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

 

The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it's the illusion of knowledge.

Changed my mind, can’t be arsed

Edited 29 December 2017 by Rogstanley

[Sharpe's Fox]

Don’t focus on economic growth folks, let’s measure the strength of our society of how we solve issues of social justice and environmental sustainability. The bourgeoisie will soon be looked upon with the same disdain as work house owners and camp commandants so be on the right side of history.

[Guest Kopfkino]

36 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

Changed my mind, can’t be arsed

 

Probably for the best. Maybe use the time you save to educate yourself on Scandinavia, there's a reason the Danish sought to distance themselves from Bernie.

[HighPeakFox]

1 hour ago, Rogstanley said:

As we enter our 2nd decade of unnecessary wage cuts thanks to continuing Tory economic incompetence, I can’t help but wonder what the history books will make of this era. Why were people willing to even consider voting for a party with a record of such comprehensive failure over such a long period? How is it that a party delivering the worst record on wage growth in recorded history, far worse than any other comparable nation on the entire planet, can even continue to exist never mind nearly win elections? These really are weird, cucky times we live in.

Conditioning, I think.

[Guest Kopfkino]

22 hours ago, toddybad said:

People need to understand that quantitative easing is borrowing. This government has borrowed for qe which has inflated the markets and led to the rich getting an ever bigger proportion of wealth. At the same time it is cutting budgets from services needed by society at large. Tories have conned people into believing their myths about national debt and gotten away with it because the word debt makes it seem obvious that it is bad. Actually it's been a huge power and money grab by the rich that has left society and the vast majority of people worse off.

 

Is this you taking the piss again? The BoE purchasing assets from banks, pension funds, and institutional investors following the approval of Alastair Darling means the Conservative government has borrowed for QE. Whatever borrowing for QE actually means. 

[Rogstanley]

2 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

 

Probably for the best. Maybe use the time you save to educate yourself on Scandinavia, there's a reason the Danish sought to distance themselves from Bernie.

The irony of your original post was that it applies to you more than probably anybody else on here. But keep spending your days scoffing at everyone else by all means.

[Guest Kopfkino]

It's best to not be deliberately antagonistic. Apologies.

Edited 29 December 2017 by Kopfkino

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Kopfkino said:

 

Is this you taking the piss again? The BoE purchasing assets from banks, pension funds, and institutional investors following the approval of Alastair Darling means the Conservative government has borrowed for QE. Whatever borrowing for QE actually means. 

Qe didn't end when the Tories came into power did it?

And the cost of qe is included within the national debt figure, no?

 

Edited 29 December 2017 by Guest

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Rogstanley said:

Changed my mind, can’t be arsed

Just console yourself in the knowledge that the Tories might retain the sheep but they won't win over new voters. Every year that passes sees tens of thousands of tory voters leave this mortal place and hundreds of thousands of young labour voters enter the fray. It's simply a matter of waiting.

[fuchsntf]

3 hours ago, Webbo said:

And unntil this year we had the fastest growth in the G7. Obviously you're going to be selec with your facts, we all do it, but don't expect anyone to believe you. 

Any statistical comparison, are downright stupid...The facts and figures "any"  party bring mean Absolutely  zilch..!!

Financial, and education poverty, is clear to see.Corruption is seen to be a real wicked proof through our society, just by the greenfell tower incident...

Incompetence , known lies, causing deliberate confusion, from our leaders, by bickering using pathetic rhetoric, from both sides of the Brexit campaign, now having the indecency that all

Political levels dont want to face up to the first 3-4 reasons why the electorate decided to leave.

 

1 of the top 2 reasons was, is, will be!!!  , not a racist stand, but people including 2nd-10+th generation immigrants, w h o want to see, a well controlled immigrant policy.

With tied in, infrastructure developement, including an education system that can be agreed across all parties, that needs to fit and mould into the flux of peoples movement, where base

Govt rules and syllabus adoptation cant be politically mishandled or used in party politics in

Every election campaign. 

 

Imo, much of the electorates dissatisfaction, are issue that all tye in together, and effects their everyday life...Schools/education ... imigration/local infrastructure developement.

Wages/NHS/Services.   National/local poverty Issues not just being supported by charities, but

Goverment involvement at the forefront.  And ffs get the housing shortage Sorted and Close loopholes, and bring clarity, into home ownerships/rented proprrties.St s rt on redeveloping Brownsites, before eating into the greenbelt locations....

We've been so v fking dumb over 60Yrs, each Next  Young generation, has, do, and will suffer because politicians dont do their duty by their own  .Actually discriminate against their own

Electorate...Changes on paper bring nothing, its what the changes on the street to be seen,

thst gives satisfaction...

[Guest Kopfkino]

1 hour ago, toddybad said:

Qe didn't end when the Tories came into power did it?

And the cost of qe is included within the national debt figure, no?

 

 

Because the BoE had already had permission to set up an Asset Purchase Facility for which the MPC then had independence over. It was BoE choice.

 

What do you mean the cost of QE is still in the national debt figure. The BoE buys bonds (government and corporate) on the secondary markets. It's still national debt like the corporate bonds are still corporate debt, so why wouldn't it be? If the BoE chose to wipe it then it wouldn't be national debt any longer but that's not the case and won't be the case because it would be inflationary.

 

It's really not some conspiracy of the Conservatives to misrepresent QE.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

 

Because the BoE had already had permission to set up an Asset Purchase Facility for which the MPC then had independence over. It was BoE choice.

 

What do you mean the cost of QE is still in the national debt figure. The BoE buys bonds (government and corporate) on the secondary markets. It's still national debt like the corporate bonds are still corporate debt, so why wouldn't it be? If the BoE chose to wipe it then it wouldn't be national debt any longer but that's not the case and won't be the case because it would be inflationary.

 

It's really not some conspiracy of the Conservatives to misrepresent QE.

No. But my point was simply that QE has continued through the Tory reign and part of the national debt tory voters worry about is actually just this. You decided to take issue over something you've later confirmed, I've no idea why you've gotten involved

[leicsmac]

3 hours ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

Don’t focus on economic growth folks, let’s measure the strength of our society of how we solve issues of social justice and environmental sustainability. The bourgeoisie will soon be looked upon with the same disdain as work house owners and camp commandants so be on the right side of history.

1

Wouldn't put it this strongly but the point is salient. Do you think anyone will care about economics in a world where the habitability is vastly different from what it is now?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

Wouldn't put it this strongly but the point is salient. Do you think anyone will care about economics in a world where the habitability is vastly different from what it is now?

Once environmental migration begins across the globe things are going to get very messy imho

[Guest Kopfkino]

3 minutes ago, toddybad said:

No. But my point was simply that QE has continued through the Tory reign and part of the national debt tory voters worry about is actually just this. You decided to take issue over something you've later confirmed, I've no idea why you've gotten involved

 

I took issue with 'QE being borrowing', its not. QE is the act of BoE buying assets. I took issue with 'this government has borrowed for QE', it hasn't. This government had nothing to do with QE, and it certainly didn't borrow for it, as that doesn't even make sense.

 

'People need to understand' that you don't understand.