Webbo Posted 2 January 2018 Share Posted 2 January 2018 On 31/10/2017 at 19:05, toddybad said: Towns all across the north of England went from normal employment/unemployment figures to suddenly having 25% of workers move from employment to ib in the 80s. It was a political decision to stop even further unrest in the north. This is all well documented. Ib I believe was subsequently taken out of unemployment figures. The issue hadn't been dealt with since and so, yes, very significant numbers still receive ib who should be on back to work benefits. The reports I've attached estimate around 750,000 currently. This isn't hard to understand. In fact this is the quote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 2 January 2018 Share Posted 2 January 2018 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Webbo said: I seem to recall a couple of months ago you saying that the unemployment figures weren't accurate as the govts(Labour and Tory) put people on invalidity benefits to massage the figures. They did. Back in the 80s. Incapacity Benefit. That is fact. Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that it's a bad thing to have those with disabilities assessed to see if they are capable of work. I actually think that's right. What I think is wrong is when this results in poor decisions. As I've said, I personally know a great many people who work on the coal face of the benefits world who recognise these as being real issues. That's my central point. Let's not forget separately that private sector organisations have been employed to carry out assessments and paid based on their results. This encourages poor assessments. The dwp had then implemented arbitrary targets for the outcome of internal dwp appeals. Edited 2 January 2018 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 2 January 2018 Share Posted 2 January 2018 7 minutes ago, Webbo said: In fact this is the quote. Indeed. And I also signposted academic papers to back up what I was saying, which you dismissed out of hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 2 January 2018 Share Posted 2 January 2018 1 minute ago, toddybad said: Indeed. And I also signposted academic papers to back up what I was saying, which you dismissed out of hand. I didn't dismiss it, we all know it happened. It's just that one minute you're saying some people shouldn't be on invalidity benefit and the next you're slamming the govt for trying to get people off invalidity benefits. Sort of have cake and eat it scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 2 January 2018 Share Posted 2 January 2018 4 minutes ago, Webbo said: I didn't dismiss it, we all know it happened. It's just that one minute you're saying some people shouldn't be on invalidity benefit and the next you're slamming the govt for trying to get people off invalidity benefits. Sort of have cake and eat it scenario. Tbf, I don't think he was. I think he was criticising the assessment procedure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 2 January 2018 Share Posted 2 January 2018 2 minutes ago, Buce said: Tbf, I don't think he was. I think he was criticising the assessment procedure. I'm sure a lot of people who have been told that they can work disagree with their assessment, doesn't mean it's wrong, maybe in some cases the assessors are mistaken but that happens in all walks of life. Last week we were calling the inland revenue, govt run, not private sector, making loads of bad decisions as I'm sure all govt depts do as well. Trying to pretend this is all some evil plot and not a series of carefully selected cock ups with spin put on it is what I disagree with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 2 January 2018 Share Posted 2 January 2018 21 minutes ago, Webbo said: I'm sure a lot of people who have been told that they can work disagree with their assessment, doesn't mean it's wrong, maybe in some cases the assessors are mistaken but that happens in all walks of life. Last week we were calling the inland revenue, govt run, not private sector, making loads of bad decisions as I'm sure all govt depts do as well. Trying to pretend this is all some evil plot and not a series of carefully selected cock ups with spin put on it is what I disagree with. From the independent: The Independent Voices It’s funny that there are so many successful appeals against disability assessments – it’s as if there is something wrong with the system If the assessment process worked effectively, and as it should, the number should be limited, and you wouldn’t expect such a large majority to be successful James Moore Friday 17 March 2017 There were 60,600 Social Security & Child Support appeals between October and December 2016 It’s rapidly becoming clear that Prime Minister Theresa May’s bold pledge to create a Britain that works for everyone should have an asterisk attached to facilitate the addition of “except for those pesky people with disabilities, can’t we pack them off somewhere else?” In recent days the Government’s plan to cut people with serious mental health conditions out of eligibility for personal independent payments has justifiably come under sustained fire. However, the attitude problem displayed by both May’s administration, and that of her predecessor David Cameron, goes beyond that, as a delve into the latest statistics demonstrates. Dispatches: Assessor dismisses claimant's disability as being "fat" What they show is that the number of appeals against decisions made by the DWP on the basis of assessments made by the private, profit driven contractors working on its behalf is increasing at a similar speed to that at which Lewis Hamilton exits Silverstone corners. They show that there were 60,600 Social Security & Child Support appeals between October and December 2016, an increase of 47 per cent. Even Lewis might think twice about acceleration like that. Some 85 per cent of those appeals were accounted for by the Personal Independence Payment (PIP) and the Employment & Support Allowance (ESA). The rate at which the decisions made by the DWP on the basis of information supplied by the Government’s contractors - Capita and Atos - are overturned is also increasing. People started taking notice when it was running at 50 per cent. Now close to two thirds of appeals the case of the PIP (65 per cent) are successful. The figure is higher still when it comes to ESA (68 per cent). I’m given to understand that the people who sit on tribunals have been asked to keep June clear, in an attempt to reduce a growing backlog. So forget about an early summer holiday. Needless to say, these people have to be paid, which puts extra cost into the system at a time when the Government says it’s trying to save money. Simply applying for either benefit causes a great deal of stress to people with disabilities. Having to go to appeal only exacerbates that. Applicants find themselves in the middle of a process that is humiliating and dehumanising. READ MORE GCHQ DID ACT DURING THE US ELECTION, BUT IT WASN'T WIRETAPPING That process also seems to throw up scandals with alarming regularity. Channel Four, for example, infamously filmed a Capita assessor saying a claimant had a “disability known as being fat”. Another claimed to have filled out forms before even seeing clients amid pressure to get as many done as quickly as possible. Other scandals have involved people with weeks or months to live being told they’re fit for work in the case of ESA, which is paid to people whose fitness to do so is impacted by medical conditions and disabilities. Set against that backdrop, is it any wonder that there has been so much criticism of the process, and so many successful appeals? If the assessment process worked effectively, and as it should, the number should be limited, and you wouldn’t expect such a large majority to be successful. Ken Butler, welfare rights advisor at Disability Rights UK, says he is “very worried for all those disabled people who get turned down for benefits and don't have the time or energy to challenge poor decisions made by the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP)”. He adds: “We’d advise all claimants to get benefits advice and, if they are turned down, to use the independent appeals process.” Butler says that the high success rate of appeals clearly demonstrates that there is something wrong with the system. Unless, of course, the system, also savagely criticised by the United Nations, was deliberately set up to be this way. Before you suggest that is me indulging in a conspiracy theory, take a moment to think about this. If you make something difficult, stressful and painful, if you litter it with traps, and take the view that everyone getting involved in it is a dirty scrounger until proven otherwise, a lot of people will get put off and won’t apply. Still more won’t appeal when turned down, saving the Government money it can use for things like millionaires tax cuts. Dealing with a disability presents enough of a challenge as it is, without having to get to grips with a state that operates in a manner that would have impressed some of George Orwell’s darker characters. Would anyone be terribly surprised to find O’Brien working as a civil servant in the DWP? The cynicism on display is breathtaking, if my assessment is correct. Alternatively, the situation I’ve discussed could simply have been created by a toxic mix of bureaucratic callousness and incompetence. The net effect is the same regardless, which is why there will be peals of bitter laughter emanating from Britain’s disabled community every time those words of Theresa May’s are trotted out. You’d be able to hear them if it weren’t for the fact that so many people with disabilities are now trapped in their own homes. 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Webbo Posted 2 January 2018 Share Posted 2 January 2018 4 minutes ago, toddybad said: From the independent: So are you saying that there aren't 750,000 people falsely on invalidity benefit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 2 January 2018 Share Posted 2 January 2018 A&E Dr apologises for 'third world conditions' https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jan/02/ae-doctor-sorry-for-third-world-conditions-as-nhs-winter-crisis-bites Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innovindil Posted 2 January 2018 Share Posted 2 January 2018 20 minutes ago, Buce said: A&E Dr apologises for 'third world conditions' https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jan/02/ae-doctor-sorry-for-third-world-conditions-as-nhs-winter-crisis-bites I've never seen so many people sick around Christmas before. The amount of friends and family (and myself for a few days) down with bugs and colds and whatever has been crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 2 January 2018 Share Posted 2 January 2018 46 minutes ago, Innovindil said: I've never seen so many people sick around Christmas before. The amount of friends and family (and myself for a few days) down with bugs and colds and whatever has been crazy. Yeah what's this I'm hearing about some strange strain of flu thats killing people? Oh and the Guardian having a field day with the Young appointment! Reading this, it appears like the Conservative Party appointments are looking a bit Trump esque! https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jan/02/toby-young-office-students-cronyism-tories Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 2 January 2018 Share Posted 2 January 2018 5 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said: Yeah what's this I'm hearing about some strange strain of flu thats killing people? Oh and the Guardian having a field day with the Young appointment! Reading this, it appears like the Conservative Party appointments are looking a bit Trump esque! https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jan/02/toby-young-office-students-cronyism-tories https://capx.co/higher-education-needs-more-people-like-toby-young/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 2 January 2018 Share Posted 2 January 2018 3 minutes ago, Webbo said: https://capx.co/higher-education-needs-more-people-like-toby-young/ Yep, written by a Vice Chancellor.... no less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 2 January 2018 Share Posted 2 January 2018 4 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said: Yep, written by a Vice Chancellor.... no less. And your point is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kopfkino Posted 2 January 2018 Share Posted 2 January 2018 4 minutes ago, Webbo said: And your point is? That opinion only counts when it's written by an Oxford History graduate in the Guardian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 2 January 2018 Share Posted 2 January 2018 3 hours ago, Webbo said: So are you saying that there aren't 750,000 people falsely on invalidity benefit? It's irrelevant to the point were discussing webbo. Pure whataboutism as usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 2 January 2018 Share Posted 2 January 2018 1 hour ago, Kopfkino said: That opinion only counts when it's written by an Oxford History graduate in the Guardian So far opinions in the daily mail and independent have also been supplied today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 2 January 2018 Share Posted 2 January 2018 (edited) Error Edited 2 January 2018 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 2 January 2018 Share Posted 2 January 2018 1 hour ago, toddybad said: It's irrelevant to the point were discussing webbo. Pure whataboutism as usual. No, you said the unemployment figures were wrong,you can't have it both ways. You're trying to imply the the system is rigged, despite the fact that there is an appeals procedure and a large percentage of those appeals are won. How can it be an unfair system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 2 January 2018 Share Posted 2 January 2018 2 hours ago, Kopfkino said: That opinion only counts when it's written by an Oxford History graduate in the Guardian I didn’t say or even suggest that? Why be such a bellend? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 2 January 2018 Share Posted 2 January 2018 2 hours ago, Webbo said: And your point is? He’s a government trumpet. Incidentally though I don’t rate or particularly agree with the Gaurdian article either. I was just pointing out the CNN style mocking of those surrounding the PM/President. On an aside since Universities began charging fees and operating as businesses they have become all about bums on seats and less about producing quality graduates and failing those who don’t come up to scratch. Not sure why you are being defensive and getting your knickers in a twist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 2 January 2018 Share Posted 2 January 2018 1 minute ago, Swan Lesta said: He’s a government trumpet. Incidentally though I don’t rate or particularly agree with the Gaurdian article either. I was just pointing out the CNN style mocking of those surrounding the PM/President. On an aside since Universities began charging fees and operating as businesses they have become all about bums on seats and less about producing quality graduates and failing those who don’t come up to scratch. Not sure why you are being defensive and getting your knickers in a twist. When you quoted the Guardian and described his appointment as Trumpesque I assumed you weren't being complimentary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 2 January 2018 Share Posted 2 January 2018 21 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said: I didn’t say or even suggest that? Why be such a bellend? Because that's what he does, as has been pointed out before: On 29/12/2017 at 11:41, Kopfkino said: The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it's the illusion of knowledge. On 29/12/2017 at 12:34, Rogstanley said: The irony of your original post was that it applies to you more than probably anybody else on here. But keep spending your days scoffing at everyone else by all means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 2 January 2018 Share Posted 2 January 2018 6 minutes ago, Buce said: Because that's what he does, as has been pointed out before: Tbf that reply closely followed this; Quote I think it’ll be a lesson in how easily some people are controlled; how docile and subservient some people are willing to become as long as it means they don’t have to admit they were wrong. If he can't take it, he shouldn't dish it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 2 January 2018 Share Posted 2 January 2018 31 minutes ago, Webbo said: No, you said the unemployment figures were wrong,you can't have it both ways. You're trying to imply the the system is rigged, despite the fact that there is an appeals procedure and a large percentage of those appeals are won. How can it be an unfair system? The unemployment figures don't count 750,000 people on long term benefits. Up to you whether you think that's legit or not. Unless you believe that 25% of Merthyr genuinely all became unfit to work at once this should trouble you. I've already said I think the idea of testing ability to work is a good thing. I haven't said anything about the system being rigged, that's your paranoia. I've said the system is poor and leading to bad decisions which are affecting people negatively. The fact that around 2/3 appeals are won, and that number is over 30,000 in a year proves that the system is flawed. Not sure what it is you're defending? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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