Webbo Posted 4 January 2018 Share Posted 4 January 2018 Just now, Buce said: Perhaps he's a Labour activist because the 'NHS is in crisis created by this govt'? Or maybe not. If there was a doctor on channel 4 saying it was just shroud waving and it turned out to be a conservative activist, I expect you'd point out the conflict of interest too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl the Llama Posted 4 January 2018 Share Posted 4 January 2018 6 minutes ago, Webbo said: He's supposed to be representing ordinary doctors when he's a labour party activist. I think it's fair to point out he's not exactly neutral. You would have thought C4 would have mentioned it too. He's not neutral but going purely off that snippet of video is he wrong? We've had years of growing dissatisfaction with Tory governance of the NHS including the junior doctors' contract debacle and expert after expert predicting combustion leading up to this recent jettisoning of thousands of operations because the infrastructure is buckling under the pressure of the entirely predictable, routine even, winter upsurge in patients and he's saying not to buy into the spin that it represents proactive Tory management of the institution. What about that is incorrect or can be disregarded on the basis of vested interest? And as Buce points out he may have been radicalised for Labour by the Conservatives' mishandling of his bread and butter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 4 January 2018 Share Posted 4 January 2018 19 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said: He's not neutral but going purely off that snippet of video is he wrong? We've had years of growing dissatisfaction with Tory governance of the NHS including the junior doctors' contract debacle and expert after expert predicting combustion leading up to this recent jettisoning of thousands of operations because the infrastructure is buckling under the pressure of the entirely predictable, routine even, winter upsurge in patients and he's saying not to buy into the spin that it represents proactive Tory management of the institution. What about that is incorrect or can be disregarded on the basis of vested interest? And as Buce points out he may have been radicalised for Labour by the Conservatives' mishandling of his bread and butter. If it's that bad it shouldn't be hard to find a non aligned doctor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 4 January 2018 Share Posted 4 January 2018 17 minutes ago, Webbo said: If it's that bad it shouldn't be hard to find a non aligned doctor. No, it shouldn't, but I suspect you would find a reason to ignore their opinion too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl the Llama Posted 4 January 2018 Share Posted 4 January 2018 22 minutes ago, Webbo said: If it's that bad it shouldn't be hard to find a non aligned doctor. If there's no problem it shouldn't be hard to find a doctor speaking out in defence of the current management of the NHS to counter the obvious fearmongering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 4 January 2018 Share Posted 4 January 2018 8 minutes ago, Buce said: No, it shouldn't, but I suspect you would find a reason to ignore their opinion too. I'm sure there are problems in the NHS, there are everytime this year, especially with Australian Flu doing the rounds. It's just the blatant politicising I object to. I don't think it's asking too much for our supposedly neutral media to be honest either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 4 January 2018 Share Posted 4 January 2018 1 minute ago, Webbo said: I'm sure there are problems in the NHS, there are everytime this year, especially with Australian Flu doing the rounds. It's just the blatant politicising I object to. I don't think it's asking too much for our supposedly neutral media to be honest either. Why? Which party would you like to see held to account, if not the one in government? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 4 January 2018 Share Posted 4 January 2018 1 hour ago, Webbo said: Hmm. Fair enough. There is still this though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 4 January 2018 Share Posted 4 January 2018 Just now, Buce said: Why? Which party would you like to see held to account, if not the one in government? There's a lot of shroud waving going on. Claims of third world conditions in a hospital that's just had a £350 million refurbishment is ridiculous. Maybe there does need to be more money spent on the NHS but it doesn't grow on trees. everyone is doing their best and to blatantly use what's happening for political gain is very poor imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 4 January 2018 Share Posted 4 January 2018 2 minutes ago, toddybad said: Hmm. Fair enough. There is still this though Have you got a graph that shows the increase in population or the increase in the age of those people? I'm not saying there aren't problems, but you're milking it and you know it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl the Llama Posted 4 January 2018 Share Posted 4 January 2018 1 minute ago, Webbo said: I'm sure there are problems in the NHS, there are everytime this year, especially with Australian Flu doing the rounds. It's just the blatant politicising I object to. I don't think it's asking too much for our supposedly neutral media to be honest either. I'm sorry Webbo but you can't call an attempt to hold the government to account "blatant politicising" just because you happen to support the party in power and therefore disagree with the facts being raised. The NHS is struggling as an entirely predictable result of government policy, it's already a political topic, highlighting the link between current events and past policy is an appropriate action to take and you'd no doubt be all over that discussion if it was a Labour government dropping the ball on the NHS... I mean you still won't forgive them for being directly responsible for the global financial crash in 2008! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 4 January 2018 Share Posted 4 January 2018 1 minute ago, Carl the Llama said: I'm sorry Webbo but you can't call an attempt to hold the government to account "blatant politicising" just because you happen to support the party in power and therefore disagree with the facts being raised. The NHS is struggling as an entirely predictable result of government policy, it's already a political topic, highlighting the link between current events and past policy is an appropriate action to take and you'd no doubt be all over that discussion if it was a Labour government dropping the ball on the NHS... I mean you still won't forgive them for being directly responsible for the global financial crash in 2008! If the doctor is a labour party activist, and channel 4 would know this, why not mention it at the start of the interview and let people judge for themselves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 4 January 2018 Share Posted 4 January 2018 3 minutes ago, Webbo said: There's a lot of shroud waving going on. Claims of third world conditions in a hospital that's just had a £350 million refurbishment is ridiculous. Maybe there does need to be more money spent on the NHS but it doesn't grow on trees. everyone is doing their best and to blatantly use what's happening for political gain is very poor imo. I think the third world conditions quote was referring to patients being kept on trollies, waiting 10 hrs to be seen etc; none of that is improved by 'refurbishment' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl the Llama Posted 4 January 2018 Share Posted 4 January 2018 Just now, Webbo said: If the doctor is a labour party activist, and channel 4 would know this, why not mention it at the start of the interview and let people judge for themselves? Perhaps they were worried that some people might instantly dismiss the information without giving it a fair hearing if they did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 4 January 2018 Share Posted 4 January 2018 1 minute ago, Buce said: I think the third world conditions quote was referring to patients being kept on trollies, waiting 10 hrs to be seen etc; none of that is improved by 'refurbishment' When I was admitted with appendicitis in the early 90s I waited on a trolley for 6 hours. This isn't a new phenomenon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 4 January 2018 Share Posted 4 January 2018 Just now, Carl the Llama said: Perhaps they were worried that some people might instantly dismiss the information without giving it a fair hearing if they did. So why not find someone who wasn't a party activist? Don't accuse me of defending ridiculous positions and pretend that what C4 did wasn't dishonest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 4 January 2018 Share Posted 4 January 2018 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Webbo said: Have you got a graph that shows the increase in population or the increase in the age of those people? I'm not saying there aren't problems, but you're milking it and you know it. It's gone up by 6x in 7 years. During the Blair years all similar graphs - which I've provided before - show reducing waiting times and during that period we had the eastern European immigration people were unhappy with. The problems is caused by the fact that funding per capita is going up but when modified to have account of age it's going down. That's even before inflation. There needs to be a real cross party debate about the issue of an aging population but the tory party can't hide the fact that history proves that reducing expenditure reduces outcomes. Why can't we just spend the EU average? That's what labour had us doing. Why are we spending too much if we're not near the bottom of the spending table? Edited 4 January 2018 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl the Llama Posted 4 January 2018 Share Posted 4 January 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Webbo said: When I was admitted with appendicitis in the early 90s I waited on a trolley for 6 hours. This isn't a new phenomenon. So it's worse in 2018 than it was in the early 90s? Or are you saying that long hospital waits under a Conservative government isn't a new phenomenon? 3 minutes ago, Webbo said: So why not find someone who wasn't a party activist? Don't accuse me of defending ridiculous positions and pretend that what C4 did wasn't dishonest. http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/nhs-winter-crisis-jeremy-hunt-doctor-consultant-flu-underfunded-nurses-a8141191.html Will he do? I can't find any evidence of him being a party activist although he does have some suspiciously left wing tweets on his timeline so maybe he won't. Also, when did I accuse you of that? I'm just trying to get you to open your mind to the idea that the current government might be responsible for the NHS crisis rather than just being really unlucky with healthcare. How is C4 omitting relatively unimportant information in the grand scheme of people's lives being put at risk by governmental attitudes to the NHS a more pressing concern for you than the issues the man is discussing? You appear to be deflecting the conversation away from the real problem. Edited 4 January 2018 by Carl the Llama Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 4 January 2018 Share Posted 4 January 2018 1 minute ago, toddybad said: It's gone up by 6x in 7 years. During the Blair years all similar grainsr - which I've provided before - show reducing waiting times and during that period we had the eastern European immigration people were unhappy with. The problems is caused by the fact that funding per capita is going up but when modified to have account of age it's going down. That's even before inflation. There needs to be a real cross party debate about the issue of an aging population but the tory party can't hide the fact that history proves that reducing expenditure reduces outcomes. Why can't we just spend the EU average? That's what labour had us doing. Why are we spending too much if we're not near the bottom of the spending table? I agree. You've admitted that spending has gone up, that's a start.Probably needs to go up more, the NHS probably needs to do less and probably, although you won't agree with this, needs more private sector involvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 4 January 2018 Share Posted 4 January 2018 4 minutes ago, Webbo said: So why not find someone who wasn't a party activist? Don't accuse me of defending ridiculous positions and pretend that what C4 did wasn't dishonest. Will the PM's former advisor do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 4 January 2018 Share Posted 4 January 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Webbo said: I agree. You've admitted that spending has gone up, that's a start.Probably needs to go up more, the NHS probably needs to do less and probably, although you won't agree with this, needs more private sector involvement. Up before inflation. Down after inflation. Down even before inflation when adjusted for age. Private sector involvement only take money out of the system. How could that possibly help? Edited 4 January 2018 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 4 January 2018 Share Posted 4 January 2018 1 minute ago, toddybad said: Will the PM's former advisor do? I think that covers what I've been saying. Good post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl the Llama Posted 4 January 2018 Share Posted 4 January 2018 Just now, Webbo said: I think that covers what I've been saying. Good post. Alright, Col. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 4 January 2018 Share Posted 4 January 2018 1 minute ago, Carl the Llama said: Alright, Col. Carl, Carl, Carl please. There are no cuts, spending is going up. We need more money because the ageing population is a problem but the NHS also needs reforms. Tell me what I've argued against on there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 4 January 2018 Share Posted 4 January 2018 2 minutes ago, Webbo said: Carl, Carl, Carl please. There are no cuts, spending is going up. We need more money because the ageing population is a problem but the NHS also needs reforms. Tell me what I've argued against on there? Real spending is going down though isn't it? Can you actually admit that point? Expenditure in % of gdp has also experienced the biggest ever fall over the last 7 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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