Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Buce]

13 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Have a look.

 

Jeremy Corbyn leads attacks on the government over NHS crisis... while sunning himself on holiday 5,000 miles away in Mexico

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-5237257/Jeremy-Corbyn-holiday-Mexico-making-NHS-criticism.html#ixzz53JBQ6sXR
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

 

His Twitter account has been churning out criticism of the Government over the NHS crisis.

But as ministers have been active and Theresa May went to hear the problems of hospital staff yesterday, Jeremy Corbyn was relaxing in sunny Mexico.

The Labour leader has attacked Transport Secretary Chris Grayling and Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt for going missing, while he has been more than 5,000 miles away over Christmas and New Year. 

Yesterday he issued a message saying: 'It is not good enough for Theresa May to say NHS problems are 'frustrating' and 'disappointing' when the Tory Government has caused this crisis. Nurses, doctors and patients are pleading with her to properly fund our health service, but she is ignoring them.'

 

Meanwhile, Mr Corbyn had jetted off to Mexico on Christmas Day and was still there yesterday morning. 

Labour declined to say when he might return to work, although sources last night suggested he was no longer in the North American country. 

Tory MP Andrew Bridgen said Mr Corbyn had no right to criticise hardworking ministers while he was enjoying a break in the sun. 

He added: 'This is the rank hypocrisy of the Left at its most breathtaking. It is shameless.'

Mr Corbyn appeared keen to keep details of his holiday secret, with aides ordered to give no details of his whereabouts. 

 

His official Twitter account gives no indication he is abroad, instead providing daily criticism of the Government.

But other Twitter users posted pictures suggesting Mr Corbyn has spent most of the festive period on holiday. 

On Christmas Day, Luke Leighfield posted an airport picture of himself with the politician, saying: 'Merry Christmas from us and Jeremy Corbyn. We're all off to Mexico!'

Yesterday, Left-wing academics John Ackerman and Irma Erendira Sandoval posted pictures of themselves with Mr Corbyn at a restaurant in Mexico.

The party leader's wife, Laura Alvarez, is Mexican. Mr Corbyn made a similar trip last year, departing Britain on Christmas Day to enjoy a break in the sun.

Labour has previously denied reports that he insists on days off in lieu if he has to work over a weekend and that he likes to take a nap in the afternoon.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-5237257/Jeremy-Corbyn-holiday-Mexico-making-NHS-criticism.html#ixzz53JD9jN6S
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

 

This is the lead story.

 

No wonder you didn't want to say.
 

Edited 5 January 2018 by Buce

[Webbo]

6 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

How so? It's already been pointed out to you that union membership is voluntary.

 

 

 

 

Even if not everyone joins the chances are more employees means more members. I think I'm right in saying that some people in the public sector are paid out of our money to do union work.

[Webbo]

6 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Jeremy Corbyn leads attacks on the government over NHS crisis... while sunning himself on holiday 5,000 miles away in Mexico

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-5237257/Jeremy-Corbyn-holiday-Mexico-making-NHS-criticism.html#ixzz53JBQ6sXR
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

 

His Twitter account has been churning out criticism of the Government over the NHS crisis.

But as ministers have been active and Theresa May went to hear the problems of hospital staff yesterday, Jeremy Corbyn was relaxing in sunny Mexico.

The Labour leader has attacked Transport Secretary Chris Grayling and Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt for going missing, while he has been more than 5,000 miles away over Christmas and New Year. 

Yesterday he issued a message saying: 'It is not good enough for Theresa May to say NHS problems are 'frustrating' and 'disappointing' when the Tory Government has caused this crisis. 

Nurses, doctors and patients are pleading with her to properly fund our health service, but she is ignoring them.'

 

Meanwhile, Mr Corbyn had jetted off to Mexico on Christmas Day and was still there yesterday morning. 

Labour declined to say when he might return to work, although sources last night suggested he was no longer in the North American country. 

Tory MP Andrew Bridgen said Mr Corbyn had no right to criticise hardworking ministers while he was enjoying a break in the sun. 

He added: 'This is the rank hypocrisy of the Left at its most breathtaking. It is shameless.'

Mr Corbyn appeared keen to keep details of his holiday secret, with aides ordered to give no details of his whereabouts. 

 

His official Twitter account gives no indication he is abroad, instead providing daily criticism of the Government.

But other Twitter users posted pictures suggesting Mr Corbyn has spent most of the festive period on holiday. 

On Christmas Day, Luke Leighfield posted an airport picture of himself with the politician, saying: 'Merry Christmas from us and Jeremy Corbyn. We're all off to Mexico!'

Yesterday, Left-wing academics John Ackerman and Irma Erendira Sandoval posted pictures of themselves with Mr Corbyn at a restaurant in Mexico.

The party leader's wife, Laura Alvarez, is Mexican. Mr Corbyn made a similar trip last year, departing Britain on Christmas Day to enjoy a break in the sun.

Labour has previously denied reports that he insists on days off in lieu if he has to work over a weekend and that he likes to take a nap in the afternoon.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-5237257/Jeremy-Corbyn-holiday-Mexico-making-NHS-criticism.html#ixzz53JD9jN6S
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

 

This is the lead story.

 

No wonder you didn't want to say.
 

Not in the Mirror or Guardian I'll bet. Its a shame our papers are so polarised.

[Buce]

Just now, Webbo said:

Not in the Mirror or Guardian I'll bet. Its a shame our papers are so polarised.

 

Why would it be? It's utterly irrelevant and a clear attempt by the Mail to deflect criticism away from the govt with a shameless attack on the opposition leader.

 

 

[Buce]

6 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Even if not everyone joins the chances are more employees means more members. I think I'm right in saying that some people in the public sector are paid out of our money to do union work.

 

Thinking you're right isn't evidence though, is it? Show us some facts.

[Webbo]

2 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Why would it be? It's utterly irrelevant and a clear attempt by the Mail to deflect criticism away from the govt with a shameless attack on the opposition leader.

 

 

What do you think of this story?

Quote

The transport secretary, Chris Grayling, has been accused of dodging his responsibilities after he left the UK for Qatar on the day much-criticised rail fare increases came into force.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/02/transport-secretary-chris-grayling-accused-running-scared-rail-fare-hike

[Webbo]

2 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Thinking you're right isn't evidence though, is it? Show us some facts.

Am I wrong?

[Buce]

1 minute ago, Webbo said:

What do you think of this story?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/02/transport-secretary-chris-grayling-accused-running-scared-rail-fare-hike

 

Completely different.

 

The article is reporting news, ie that Grayling is facing criticism from other politicians, whereas the Mail is an opinion piece.

[Buce]

2 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Am I wrong?

 

I have no idea, Webbo.

 

You made the assertion - it's down to you to offer evidence.

[Webbo]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-5234703/Twelve-hospital-trusts-report-100-bed-occupancy-rates.html

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/fb-5234545/A-E-CONSULTANT-APOLOGISES-WORLD-CONDITIONS.html

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-5233661/NHS-chiefs-urge-relatives-help-ease-crisis.html

 

Quite a well balanced opinion piece here I thought.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-5233765/NHS-deceiving-crisis-says-J-Meirion-Thomas.html

[Webbo]

2 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

I have no idea, Webbo.

 

You made the assertion - it's down to you to offer evidence.

I can only go on what I've heard over the years. There are people here who work in the public sector, if I'm wrong I'm sure they'll tell us.

[Guest]

41 minutes ago, Webbo said:

The govt engineers a situation where the unions get more of our money, some of that money is filtered back to the labour party, how can you pretend that that's not at least iffy?

 

You say that it helps workers, fair enough. The business lobbying helps business what's wrong with that? Don't you want successful businesses?

So this sort of thing doesn't need rules?

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11902758/Ex-MPs-banned-from-lobbying-after-cash-for-access-scandal.html

[Webbo]

2 minutes ago, toddybad said:

So this sort of thing doesn't need rules?

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11902758/Ex-MPs-banned-from-lobbying-after-cash-for-access-scandal.html

Quote

Former MPs will be banned from working as paid lobbyists for six months after stepping down, following the “cash for access” scandal, The Telegraph can disclose

Looks like there has been rules if MPs are now banned.

 

I'm not defending lobbying, not most of it anyway. Most of it stinks. It's just  your Tory bad, Labour good nonsense I'm arguing against. All parties take money from business men, even Labour. They have to fund their activities somehow. Unless you want state funding of parties, which I don't, then this will always go on.

[Buce]

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jan/05/nhs-doctor-let-patients-down-crisis

 

I’m an A&E doctor. This is how we’re forced to let our patients down:

 

I’ve arrived five minutes early for my shift in a hospital A&E department. I walk through the corridor behind the department, already crammed with hospital trolleys. I shut them out of my mind. I’ve still got five minutes of breathing space before they become my immediate reality.

The trolleys are staffed by paramedics. They brought the patients in, there’s nowhere for them to go, and there are no hospital staff to look after them. So the paramedics wait with the patients, checking on their pain and repeating their vital signs – instead of being out there responding to the soaring number of emergency calls.

 

Most of the patients in the corridor today are elderly. Some clearly have dementia, and are confused as to where they are. There’s no dignity, no warmth and a very long wait ahead before the hospital starts seeing and treating them. It turns out that I didn’t manage to shut them out of my mind at all.

As I walk into the changing rooms there is chaos everywhere. A crisis has hit all the staff. The cleaners have needed to help with getting cubicles and bed areas turned around faster and faster, so the staff areas have moved to the bottom of their list. There are literally no clean scrubs or uniforms left for any of us to wear. “Don’t worry, whatever you’ve got on is fine, just start seeing patients.” The bosses are as stretched and as desperate as anyone else.

I am allocated to the “minors” area. This area was designed for ambulatory patients who could be walked into a room, seen and walked back out to the waiting room to wait for results. It is already full of patients on hospital beds, pushed two together in three out of the five consultation rooms. Some are elderly, confused, alone. Some are young, injured or very unwell. One is a mental health patient with severe anxiety. This is not the place to make her feel better. Far from it.

Over the PA system, pre-alerts for ambulances carrying critically unwell patients are announced – the ones whose condition is life-threatening. In 11 minutes, four ambulances carrying patients who need immediate resuscitation arrive. This would saturate the system on a good day. Today they have nowhere else to go.

 

I hear a call for “security urgently” over the PA system. The call is repeated two minutes later. We all know it’s for show. The security team are stretched and scattered all over the hospital, and can rarely answer those calls. This time a staff member had been attacked by an intoxicated patient.

 

As I walk back down the jammed corridor, increasing numbers of screaming and crying patients line the lanes, creating an emotional and physical obstacle course that every staff member walks down. It’s truly sickening.

 

What’s worse is that this situation was entirely predictable. The inadequate care we are providing is the inevitable reality of the government’s funding decisions. If you strip back funding, force hospitals to make savings they can’t afford, devastate primary and social care, and fail to invest in staffing or resources to match demand, we are forced to tell our patients: “I’m so sorry, we can’t look after you safely today.”

 

And for many of us, we’re tired of apologising on behalf of the ministers who have made these decisions. It’s just too much. We are too tired to keep trying to smile. We are struggling to try to make it work. We’re sorry we’ve let you down, but we’re broken and we need your help.

• The anonymous writer is an A&E doctor who works in a hospital in south-east England

[Captain...]

28 minutes ago, Webbo said:

What do you think of this story?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/02/transport-secretary-chris-grayling-accused-running-scared-rail-fare-hike

 

You understand that Grayling is the minister in charge of transport and should be overseeing his policies not dropping a turd and running away.

Corbyn is the leader of the opposition, his job is to hold the government to account, he doesn't get to dictate when policies are launched and needs to react to the things the government controls. What  benefit would it be him being in this country while the NHS is in crisis? He isn't the Health Secretary nor the shadow health secretary. He books a holiday a story drops and he responds from his holiday. That mail article is a complete non story and to defend it with a Guardian article about a minister being absent on the day his policy, that he developed and scheduled and launched, comes into effect.

 

3 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Looks like there has been rules if MPs are now banned.

 

I'm not defending lobbying, not most of it anyway. Most of it stinks. It's just  your Tory bad, Labour good nonsense I'm arguing against. All parties take money from business men, even Labour. They have to fund their activities somehow. Unless you want state funding of parties, which I don't, then this will always go on.

But you see that by arguing against Tory Bad Labour good, with Labour bad Tory good is just as much nonsense and the exact reason this thread has gone to shite. I can only be bothered to dip into this thread every now and again when I'm bored at work  and each time it is the same, interesting topics always descends into the same nonsense. Your entrenched views are just as bad as Toddy's.

[Webbo]

1 minute ago, Captain... said:

 

You understand that Grayling is the minister in charge of transport and should be overseeing his policies not dropping a turd and running away.

Corbyn is the leader of the opposition, his job is to hold the government to account, he doesn't get to dictate when policies are launched and needs to react to the things the government controls. What  benefit would it be him being in this country while the NHS is in crisis? He isn't the Health Secretary nor the shadow health secretary. He books a holiday a story drops and he responds from his holiday. That mail article is a complete non story and to defend it with a Guardian article about a minister being absent on the day his policy, that he developed and scheduled and launched, comes into effect.

 

But you see that by arguing against Tory Bad Labour good, with Labour bad Tory good is just as much nonsense and the exact reason this thread has gone to shite. I can only be bothered to dip into this thread every now and again when I'm bored at work  and each time it is the same, interesting topics always descends into the same nonsense. Your entrenched views are just as bad as Toddy's.

The prices had been announced weeks before, Grayling was in Qatar to promote business. Corbyn was on holiday. Now I didn't bring the subject up, I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy here.

[Captain...]

21 minutes ago, Webbo said:

The prices had been announced weeks before, Grayling was in Qatar to promote business. Corbyn was on holiday. Now I didn't bring the subject up, I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy here.

First off, you did bring the subject up, you mentioned the Mail's coverage, you then refused to provide a link, so Buce did on your behalf, if you meant something else then post the link. You then respond with a Guardian article as some sort of defence, (incidentally at no point does the guardian accuse Grayling of running away, it is other politicians that have done that the article just reports it, and quotes multiple people accusing Grayling of running away).

 

The Mail article uses language like "sunning himself", "jetted off" to imply he is gallivanting around on a jolly, and for some reason should not be allowed to comment on the NHS because of this. An issue he has no control over.

 

This is the exact problem, do you honestly think there is anything wrong with Jeremy Corbyn going on holiday and commenting on the NHS crisis? Do you honestly think that is worthy of column inches? Do you honestly not see the difference between reacting to something while you are away or deliberately being away when something you are responsible for comes into effect? I suspect you do, but your blind refusal to accept anything other than Labour Bad Tory Good just means anything you say lacks any sort of credibility.

 

Now you may not think that Grayling did anything wrong by being unavailable on the day of the rail fare rises, a day filled with protests and discontent, and that is fine, but you have completely derailed the discussion on the NHS to political point scoring, by dragging up something completely irrelevant.

 

Jeremy Corbyn says that the NHS is failing and the Government need to do more - response from the Mail, well that's hypocritical because he said that from Mexico, and he once criticised Grayling and Hunt of being absent. - Just utter nonsense

 

I fully expect a 1 line response from Webbo not even answering the questions.

Edited 5 January 2018 by Captain...

[Webbo]

1 minute ago, Captain... said:

First off, you did bring the subject up, you mentioned the Mail's coverage, you then refused to provide a link, so Buce did on your behalf, if you meant something else then post the link. You then respond with a Guardian article as some sort of defence, (incidentally at no point does the guardian accuse Grayling of running away, it is other politicians that have done that the article just reports it, and quotes multiple people accusing Grayling of running away).

 

The Mail article uses language like "sunning himself", "jetted off" to imply he is gallivanting around on a jolly, and for some reason should not be allowed to comment on the NHS because of this. An issue he has no control over.

 

This is the exact problem, do you honestly think there is anything wrong with Jeremy Corbyn going on holiday and commenting on the NHS crisis? Do you honestly think that is worthy of column inches? Do you honestly not see the difference between reacting to something while you are away or deliberately being away when something you are responsible for comes into effect? I suspect you do, but your blind refusal to accept anything other than Labour Bad Tory Good just means anything you say lacks any sort of credibility.

 

Now you may not think that Grayling did anything wrong by being unavailable on the day of the rail fare rises, a day filled with protests and discontent, and that is fine, but you have completely derailed the discussion on the NHS to political point scoring, by dragging up something completely irrelevant.

 

Jeremy Corbyn says that the NHS is failing and the Government need to do more - response from the Mail, well that's hypocritical because he said that from Mexico, and he once criticised Grayling and Hunt of being absent. - Just utter nonsense

That wasn't the article I mean't. I said there were articles in yesterday's Mail that was in todays. I was expecting the usual " The Mail won't criticise the Tories" nonsense and thought it might surprise a few people, plus I was on a tablet at the time and couldn't link. If you read the links I've now put up you'll see what I mean't.

 

Why is it a big deal if Grayling is in Qatar when the price rises come into effect if they'd already been announced. What would have been altered if he'd stayed here?

 

Btw, I've never denied having entrenched views.

[Carl the Llama]

1 hour ago, Webbo said:

The govt engineers a situation where the unions get more of our money, some of that money is filtered back to the labour party, how can you pretend that that's not at least iffy?

 

You say that it helps workers, fair enough. The business lobbying helps business what's wrong with that? Don't you want successful businesses?

For the billionaires having dinner with the PM there's a more obvious causal link between the lobbyist getting their way - be it less costly regulation or a more advantageous tax setup - subsequently improving their wealth and the amount they offer in donations.  The unions exist precisely because of that kind of problem.

[Webbo]

1 minute ago, Carl the Llama said:

For the billionaires having dinner with the PM there's a more obvious causal link between the lobbyist getting their way - be it less costly regulation or a more advantageous tax setup - subsequently improving their wealth and the amount they offer in donations.  The unions exist precisely because of that kind of problem.

Labour good, tory bad?

[Captain...]

37 minutes ago, Webbo said:

That wasn't the article I mean't. I said there were articles in yesterday's Mail that was in todays. I was expecting the usual " The Mail won't criticise the Tories" nonsense and thought it might surprise a few people, plus I was on a tablet at the time and couldn't link. If you read the links I've now put up you'll see what I mean't.

 

Why is it a big deal if Grayling is in Qatar when the price rises come into effect if they'd already been announced. What would have been altered if he'd stayed here?

 

Btw, I've never denied having entrenched views.

Honestly, he's an incompetent fvckwit, it doesn't really matter where he is, the further away the better. I have never said he should have been here, it probably wouldn't have made a difference he dropped a massive turd and has made it perfectly clear he has no intention of cleaning it up.

 

If you're on a tablet and can't post links, then say that, not "have a look for yourself". 

Edited 5 January 2018 by Captain...

[Carl the Llama]

4 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Labour good, tory bad?

Wealth hoarding bad, a modicum of protection for the people doing the work good.

[Captain...]

4 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Labour good, tory bad?

How about Union influence on Labour party bad, rich individuals influence on Tory party bad.

[Webbo]

1 minute ago, Captain... said:

How about Union influence on Labour party bad, rich individuals influence on Tory party bad.

Sometimes good. sometimes bad, for all sides. 

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Sometimes good. sometimes bad, for all sides. 

Struggling to see how rich people having direct access to cabinet ministers who then enact policies which make the rich richer is ever good but that's probably just me with my entrenched views.