Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Webbo]

8 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Struggling to see how rich people having direct access to cabinet ministers who then enact policies which make the rich richer is ever good but that's probably just me with my entrenched views.

So you know whats said in these meetings and it's all corrupt?

 

What if it's some small energy company lobbying the govt for research funds into fusion power? Very few people in the Labour party have ever worked in business, how are they supposed to know what businesses need if they don't talk to business?

 

I could point out that the Labour party took £1 million from Bernie Ecclestone and amazingly F1 was given an exemption for some years from the tobacco advertising ban. I could say the Lord Sainsbury was a major donor to the Labour party and they made him Science Minister, that really is buying influence, but I won't because it's past history and it's boring.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Webbo said:

Looks like there has been rules if MPs are now banned.

 

I'm not defending lobbying, not most of it anyway. Most of it stinks. It's just  your Tory bad, Labour good nonsense I'm arguing against. All parties take money from business men, even Labour. They have to fund their activities somehow. Unless you want state funding of parties, which I don't, then this will always go on.

It's individuals having undue influence that concerns me as a corrupt practice. I can't help that it's the tories predominantly in that position.

 

Labour do get some pretty hefty domains through the unions but people join unions in this knowledge. The unions and labour are intertwined. 

 

Beyond that, the average individual donation to labour is £22. It also has over 500,000 members who pay a minimum of £4 a month.

 

Nobody is getting policies written for them for £22.

[Captain...]

26 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Sometimes good. sometimes bad, for all sides. 

I do find it incredible that we just accept that our governments (red or blue) are going to be influenced by external forces, we all know that there are certain backers and lobby groups that  curry favour with the people we elect to represent us. I think the only influence on our politicians should be the good of the country and the will of the people (except when it comes to Brexit obviously ).

 

Every few years we get a cash for questions scandal and we are made aware of secret deals with wealthy people/groups, it's just accepted now. We know of the Bilderberg group but nobody knows what they do and why, and why our publicly elected officials go to these clandestine meetings. That is politicians from Labour, Tory and Lib Dem. We've just given up on ever really being able to hold our politicians to account.

Edited 5 January 2018 by Captain...

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Webbo said:

So you know whats said in these meetings and it's all corrupt?

 

What if it's some small energy company lobbying the govt for research funds into fusion power? Very few people in the Labour party have ever worked in business, how are they supposed to know what businesses need if they don't talk to business?

 

I could point out that the Labour party took £1 million from Bernie Ecclestone and amazingly F1 was given an exemption for some years from the tobacco advertising ban. I could say the Lord Sainsbury was a major donor to the Labour party and they made him Science Minister, that really is buying influence, but I won't because it's past history and it's boring.

And I would say that the eccelstone/Sainsbury issues are also corruption. I'm not defending corrupt practices by either party.

 

If it was simple business learning surely that would be via a minuted business forum? Not secret meetings by party payees?

 

How many small fusion companies do you think exist? Fusion requires government funding to research. 

 

How many small companies do you believe pay the government hundreds of thousands or millions to lobby them? And even if they did how would it be right for one commercial organisation to get an advantage by paying government?

Edited 5 January 2018 by Guest

[Webbo]

1 minute ago, toddybad said:

And I would say that the eccelstone/Sainsbury issues are also corruption. I'm not defending corrupt practices by either party.

 

If ut was simple lobbying surely that would be via a minutes business forum? Not secret meetings by party payees?

Yet again, I'm not saying there isn't malpractice, although I doubt it's as bad as some would have you believe.

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Yet again, I'm not saying there isn't malpractice, although I doubt it's as bad as some would have you believe.

Well that's a step forward.

 

So whats the basis for your doubt? Your turn to convince me.

[Webbo]

11 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Well that's a step forward.

 

So whats the basis for your doubt? Your turn to convince me.

Risk to reward ratio, and the fact that I don't believe all politicians are crooks.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Risk to reward ratio, and the fact that I don't believe all politicians are crooks.

But what else would the meetings be about if it wasn't for some form of personal gain? I'm less trusting than you.

[Webbo]

7 minutes ago, toddybad said:

But what else would the meetings be about if it wasn't for some form of personal gain? I'm less trusting than you.

  Some big businesses lobby for more regulation rather than less because it gives them an advantage over their smaller rivals. 

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, Webbo said:

  Some big businesses lobby for more regulation rather than less because it gives them an advantage over their smaller rivals. 

It's still paying for an advantage though isn't it?

It doesn't matter what party does it I'm not impressed.

Tbh the Tories have no choice but to rely on big donors as the party membership isn't big enough or I reckon they'd have outlawed this sort of practice. It does stink.

[Webbo]

32 minutes ago, toddybad said:

It's still paying for an advantage though isn't it?

It doesn't matter what party does it I'm not impressed.

Tbh the Tories have no choice but to rely on big donors as the party membership isn't big enough or I reckon they'd have outlawed this sort of practice. It does stink.

I'm not defending it.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Captain... said:

I do find it incredible that we just accept that our governments (red or blue) are going to be influenced by external forces, we all know that there are certain backers and lobby groups that  curry favour with the people we elect to represent us. I think the only influence on our politicians should be the good of the country and the will of the people (except when it comes to Brexit obviously ).

 

Every few years we get a cash for questions scandal and we are made aware of secret deals with wealthy people/groups, it's just accepted now. We know of the Bilderberg group but nobody knows what they do and why, and why our publicly elected officials go to these clandestine meetings. That is politicians from Labour, Tory and Lib Dem. We've just given up on ever really being able to hold our politicians to account.

Personally think MPs and particularly cabinet ministers should be paid much more - the PMs salary is ridiculously low for their responsibilities - then completely ban any other paid activity. This would make it black or white whether rules had been broken. If you've received payment in any form you're out. 

[Guest]

Essex woman dies after waiting nearly four hours for ambulance

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jan/05/essex-woman-dies-after-waiting-nearly-four-hours-for-ambulance?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

 

Hospital using volunteers

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/theresa-may-nhs-hospital-volunteer-staff-berkshire-sonning-a8142596.html?amp&__twitter_impression=true

 

 

Edited 5 January 2018 by Guest

[Guest]

Might be interesting re the debate about how the nhs should transform going forwards

 

How to save the NHS: experts offer their big ideas

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jan/05/how-to-save-the-nhs-experts-offer-their-big-ideas?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

 

[lifted*fox]

every time I open this thread now it's toddybad vs. webbo. 

 

i say we get them to meet up IRL - cover them both in duck fat and get them to fight to the death.

 

 

Edited 5 January 2018 by lifted*fox

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, lifted*fox said:

every time I open this thread now it's toddybad vs. webbo. 

 

i say we get them to meet up IRL - cover them both in duck fat and get them to fight to the death.

 

 

When I first joined these threads it was the right wingers as a gang taking on all-comers (they still do it if something sufficiently riles them). I just like winding them up. They all talk crap so I just give them the left wing version of themselves. Alas, only poor Webbo is left to play with. I couldn't fight him to the death, then I'd be alone 

[Webbo]

I just like winning.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Webbo said:

I just like winning.

 

[fuchsntf]

7 hours ago, Webbo said:

Risk to reward ratio, and the fact that I don't believe all politicians are crooks.

Thats like saying not all Leicester people are a misery-guts....of course there is the odd exception...

[Webbo]

1 minute ago, fuchsntf said:

Thats like saying not all Leicester people are a misery-guts....of course there is the odd exception...

Me for one

[fuchsntf]

8 hours ago, toddybad said:

It's individuals having undue influence that concerns me as a corrupt practice. I can't help that it's the tories predominantly in that position.

 

Labour do get some pretty hefty domains through the unions but people join unions in this knowledge. The unions and labour are intertwined. 

 

Beyond that, the average individual donation to labour is £22. It also has over 500,000 members who pay a minimum of £4 a month.

 

Nobody is getting policies written for them for £22.

Look I dont know if I am misunderstanding You / Others..

The labour movement was born on the idea of workers/employees organisations, the unions were and are

Part and partial of the Labour background...Tory Party since thatchers time, tried and succeeded

in making it sound  distastfull. The Elecorate have been stupid and conned themselves.

 

The Labour party..again!!  is a party for the working classes, including the working middle classes.

Some Unions shot themselves in the foot, and mis-lead their own members, other good/great unions

Lost out because of poor crap Minimal union leaders...IMO like Scargill, Red-Ken..etc.

As much as I detested Thatchers govt, even as then aUnionist, I despised Just ss much how some Strong Union leaders

Braggarts were misusing   their members strength and power, for their individual self.They has much as any thing the Tories

did, let down the socialist -union party and members.

 

Another thing thst has got lost in modern  History...The NHS/Govt/Union care services were financially entwined.

Convalascence and re- education and career centers/clinics  for the  injured  at work, were heavily supported by Unions.

Millions, maybe in retrospect billions were lost, as the Unions finances collapsed, Within their own internal corruption

NHS lost a major financial sector support.

There were no strong Social-politicians that could fight that  side, or put it up for continual  discussion.Sort of Shriffled up

in time...Modern labour/socialist politics have not had a decent or strong group of Politicians for many a year...

Oh!!  Blairs cronies....were right of middle, using and riding  the Labour Platforms.

Good Top Local social politicians , have always been there, but are not given a worthy voice Or platform...

[fuchsntf]

1 hour ago, Webbo said:

Me for one

Webboception...one and only...

[Rogstanley]

This thread has become like a game of 5-a-side where four players from one team have been called home by their mum for tea. In the spirit of fairness I’ll volunteer to join the right wing side until the others are allowed out again. 

 

Here we go...

 

Business profits are up, good news good news, won’t be long before they voluntarily share some of that wealth with the rest of us. What about that Corbyn eh? He supports terrorists you know. And he likes that Venezuela socialism, shows how much he knows. Oh looky here we’ve got the highest GDP growth within this group of countries I’ve specifically chosen and between these dates I’ve specifically chosen. Won’t be long now, we’ll all see some of that wealth. Not like that McDonnell, all he wants is a magic money tree. Tax the rich!? They’ll just leave the country. And what’s this, unemployment down again. Yes those benefit scroungers are better off on a minimum wage zero hour contract, and that’s proof Tory cuts are working. Hard choices, like removing dignity from disabled people. Tough decisions, like blaming all our problems on foreigners. Strong leadership, like caving in to absolutely anyone with a bit of cash. Stability, like having to pay billions to keep a government together. Hard brexit, that’s what we want. Take back control, make Britain great again. It was us what did the industrial revolution you know, pretty sure we can do it again if we need to. Don’t even talk to me about Dianne Abbot, can’t even add up, what a laugh. Well, been nice, I’ve got to go and drink loads of pints of beer in the pub now. Enjoy it while it lasts I say, we won’t even be able to drink beer soon, with the way British culture is being eroded, won’t  be long before sharia law comes in. Toodle-oo.

 

Edited 6 January 2018 by Rogstanley

[Innovindil]

11 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

This thread has become like a game of 5-a-side where four players from one team have been called home by their mum for tea. In the spirit of fairness I’ll volunteer to join the right wing side until the others are allowed out again. 

 

Here we go...

 

Business profits are up, good news good news, won’t be long before they voluntarily share some of that wealth with the rest of us. What about that Corbyn eh? He supports terrorists you know. And he likes that Venezuela socialism, shows how much he knows. Oh looky here we’ve got the highest GDP growth within this group of countries I’ve specifically chosen and between these dates I’ve specifically chosen. Won’t be long now, we’ll all see some of that wealth. Not like that McDonnell, all he wants is a magic money tree. Tax the rich!? They’ll just leave the country. And what’s this, unemployment down again. Yes those benefit scroungers are better off on a minimum wage zero hour contract, and that’s proof Tory cuts are working. Hard choices, like removing dignity from disabled people. Tough decisions, like blaming all our problems on foreigners. Strong leadership, like caving in to absolutely anyone with a bit of cash. Stability, like having to pay billions to keep a government together. Hard brexit, that’s what we want. Take back control, make Britain great again. It was us what did the industrial revolution you know, pretty sure we can do it again if we need to. Don’t even talk to me about Dianne Abbot, can’t even add up, what a laugh. Well, been nice, I’ve got to go and drink loads of pints of beer in the pub now. Enjoy it while it lasts I say, we won’t even be able to drink beer soon, with the way British culture is being eroded, won’t  be long before sharia law comes in. Toodle-oo.

 

That's it my son. Welcome to the dark side. 

[Guest]

44 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

This thread has become like a game of 5-a-side where four players from one team have been called home by their mum for tea. In the spirit of fairness I’ll volunteer to join the right wing side until the others are allowed out again. 

 

Here we go...

 

Business profits are up, good news good news, won’t be long before they voluntarily share some of that wealth with the rest of us. What about that Corbyn eh? He supports terrorists you know. And he likes that Venezuela socialism, shows how much he knows. Oh looky here we’ve got the highest GDP growth within this group of countries I’ve specifically chosen and between these dates I’ve specifically chosen. Won’t be long now, we’ll all see some of that wealth. Not like that McDonnell, all he wants is a magic money tree. Tax the rich!? They’ll just leave the country. And what’s this, unemployment down again. Yes those benefit scroungers are better off on a minimum wage zero hour contract, and that’s proof Tory cuts are working. Hard choices, like removing dignity from disabled people. Tough decisions, like blaming all our problems on foreigners. Strong leadership, like caving in to absolutely anyone with a bit of cash. Stability, like having to pay billions to keep a government together. Hard brexit, that’s what we want. Take back control, make Britain great again. It was us what did the industrial revolution you know, pretty sure we can do it again if we need to. Don’t even talk to me about Dianne Abbot, can’t even add up, what a laugh. Well, been nice, I’ve got to go and drink loads of pints of beer in the pub now. Enjoy it while it lasts I say, we won’t even be able to drink beer soon, with the way British culture is being eroded, won’t  be long before sharia law comes in. Toodle-oo.

 

The highlighted bit was the highlight.

Tory cuck cvnt. 

Edited 6 January 2018 by Guest