bovril Posted 4 July 2017 Share Posted 4 July 2017 10 minutes ago, Bobby Hundreds said: Heard he's become a right hermit. Well he didn't want to become an MP, but caved in to pressure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davieG Posted 4 July 2017 Share Posted 4 July 2017 6 hours ago, Captain... said: Even ignoring the fire safety aspects of it, the fact zinc lasts 10 years longer than aluminium would be reason enough to use that, an extra £300,000 for 10 years extra life span is clearly value for money, lasts 25% longer at 3% additional cost, seems like a bargain to me. I wonder which factor they had in mind when they went for the cheaper, inferior, less aesthetically pleasing, less durable option? The problem is the people that make these decisions won't be involved when they next need replacing also I doubt the buildings themselves will still be fit for purpose and will be replaced anyway. Modern buildings of this ilk aren't built to last they become someone else's problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davieG Posted 4 July 2017 Share Posted 4 July 2017 6 hours ago, Webbo said: They do that to aluminium, not sure they do with zinc. Also when they say zinc, I assume they're talking about galvanised steel, which would be heavier than aluminium. That might have been a consideration as well. It's different. Steel: This is usually supplied hot-dip galvanised (typically with zinc or a zinc-aluminium alloy) to provide a robust finish. It’s available in a huge range of colours and effects, from high-gloss reflective surfaces to pretty much any factory-painted hue. Steel is probably the most affordable metal cladding in terms of up front costs and offers a good life expectancy of 35+ years, but it’s not quite as durable as the other metals. Aluminium: Steel’s main rival is an extremely lightweight material, which can help to minimise loads on the building and potentially reduce your outlay on foundations. As aluminium’s surface oxidises it produces a hard, dense protective layer that prevents corrosion, giving this cladding a lifespan of 40 years or more. Coatings can be added to further enhance its natural qualities or to achieve the colour and finish you desire. Zinc: Boasting a silvery aesthetic when freshly installed, which weathers to an attractive lead-like hue over time if left untreated, zinc is a highly durable surface. It can easily achieve well over 50 years of service thanks to the protective patina it cultivates. As well as its natural greyish hue, it’s also available in a pre-weathered black finish. Copper: This elegant metal is prized for its ability to develop a self-protecting and virtually maintenance-free verdigris patina that ensures a long lifespan of 100 years or more. If left to age, copper will mellow from bright golden-bronze tones through dark browns to a characteristic blue-green finish. New products include mesh-style claddings with colour-preserving coatings that can create a highly individual look. http://www.self-build.co.uk/metal-cladding-options-explained Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davieG Posted 4 July 2017 Share Posted 4 July 2017 2 hours ago, Alf Bentley said: Maybe he needs to come out of his shell a bit more? Maybe not, though, if he was disgraced for sending sex messages to young women. That would make him very sluggish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charl91 Posted 4 July 2017 Share Posted 4 July 2017 3 hours ago, Webbo said: Great, if we're going to play the misleading statistics game... Debt Labour (2010): £ 1,000 bn Conservative £1,700 bn Debt to GDP Ratio Labour (2010): 76% Conservatives: About 90% 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 4 July 2017 Share Posted 4 July 2017 21 minutes ago, Charl91 said: Great, if we're going to play the misleading statistics game... Debt Labour (2010): £ 1,000 bn Conservative £1,700 bn Debt to GDP Ratio Labour (2010): 76% Conservatives: About 90% Obviously the debt is going to go up until the deficit is gone. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charl91 Posted 4 July 2017 Share Posted 4 July 2017 1 hour ago, Webbo said: Obviously the debt is going to go up until the deficit is gone. Yes. The statistics are misleading without context. That's rather the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 4 July 2017 Share Posted 4 July 2017 Just now, Charl91 said: Yes. The statistics are misleading without context. That's rather the point. Which one of the statistics in that table were misleading? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 4 July 2017 Share Posted 4 July 2017 16 minutes ago, Webbo said: Which one of the statistics in that table were misleading? You might have to wait for a while for that, amazing the lack of understanding of the deficit/debt shown today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charl91 Posted 4 July 2017 Share Posted 4 July 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Webbo said: Which one of the statistics in that table were misleading? Do you actually need to ask? I can give you some hints if you need though. Have all these statistics accounted for inflation, the rise in population, or the fall in the average wage? It's a nice handful of cherry picked statistics, framed in dubious ways (to make many appear better than suggested) also posted without context in order to suggest that the Tories have done a better job than they actually have done. I'm sure I could also take many terribly biased pro-labour posts (which also often hand pick nice-looking statistics) to show how terrible the Tories have done, at which point you'd shoot them down immediately. It's amazing how your cognitive skills seem to fall by the wayside when it comes to analysing pro-conservative statistics. Funny that. 1 hour ago, Strokes said: You might have to wait for a while for that, amazing the lack of understanding of the deficit/debt shown today. Really?? You do realise that I actually acknowledge that I was posting misleading statistics, right? That was rather the point, which I think has slightly wooshed over your head. Subtlety really is lost on some on this forum. Edited 4 July 2017 by Charl91 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 4 July 2017 Share Posted 4 July 2017 12 minutes ago, Strokes said: You might have to wait for a while for that, amazing the lack of understanding of the deficit/debt shown today. It's certainly got a lot worse across all the political debate I've seen since Momentum came onto the scene. They'll argue black is white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charl91 Posted 4 July 2017 Share Posted 4 July 2017 (edited) 3 minutes ago, MattP said: It's certainly got a lot worse across all the political debate I've seen since Momentum came onto the scene. They'll argue black is white. Pot, meet Kettle. Edited 4 July 2017 by Charl91 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 4 July 2017 Share Posted 4 July 2017 1 minute ago, Charl91 said: Do you actually need to ask? I can give you some hints if you need though. Have all these statistics accounted for inflation, the rise in population, or the fall in the average wage? Really?? You do realise that I actually acknowledge that I was posting misleading statistics, right? The clue is in the post; again, that was rather the point, which I think has slightly wooshed over your head. Subtlety really is lost on some on this forum. Well the NHS figures state the funded is at 2017 level so that would be taking inflation into account. The massive fall in unemployment isn't affected by the things you mention, nor is the fall in the deficit as a % of GDP or the rise in productivity. The rise in the minimum wage and tax free allowance is far beyond any index linking. The rest I'm not sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 4 July 2017 Share Posted 4 July 2017 3 minutes ago, MattP said: It's certainly got a lot worse across all the political debate I've seen since Momentum came onto the scene. They'll argue black is white. Sometimes it is: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 4 July 2017 Share Posted 4 July 2017 8 minutes ago, Charl91 said: Do you actually need to ask? I can give you some hints if you need though. Have all these statistics accounted for inflation, the rise in population, or the fall in the average wage? The fall in the average wage makes the achievement on the minimum wage and taking the lowest paid out of taxation an even better achievement than the grid shows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 4 July 2017 Share Posted 4 July 2017 2 minutes ago, Webbo said: Well the NHS figures state the funded is at 2017 level so that would be taking inflation into account. The massive fall in unemployment isn't affected by the things you mention, nor is the fall in the deficit as a % of GDP or the rise in productivity. The rise in the minimum wage and tax free allowance is far beyond any index linking. The rest I'm not sure. Even including inflation the Tory figures are all better GDP would be £2.8 trillion, minimum wage would be £11,500 aprox and tax free allowance would be £7,700 approx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 4 July 2017 Share Posted 4 July 2017 3 minutes ago, Buce said: Sometimes it is: Why would you make school kids wear black shirts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charl91 Posted 4 July 2017 Share Posted 4 July 2017 6 minutes ago, Webbo said: Well the NHS figures state the funded is at 2017 level so that would be taking inflation into account. The massive fall in unemployment isn't affected by the things you mention, nor is the fall in the deficit as a % of GDP or the rise in productivity. The rise in the minimum wage and tax free allowance is far beyond any index linking. The rest I'm not sure. Employment statistics depends on how they measure "employment". One of the two main ways it is measured is through job seekers allowance. As it has been made much more difficult to claim JSA, this makes it appear as though there are more people "in work", and pads out the employment statistics. There is a lot of data to suggest this is the case. Another point is people being "in work" doesn't give you an idea of how many hours they are in work. The fall in the average weekly salary suggest that there are many more people unable to get full time work. Lastly, we were in the midst of a financial crisis during that point. So yes, employment would've been worse off any way. The fact that it puts the NHS in (2017) terms, but not many of the others should also give a big clue to the biased nature of the statistics. There are also many flaws in presenting the NHS data (as well as the other statistics) in the way that they have, but I have a ton of work that needs doing, so I may save that, and some of the other points, for later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 4 July 2017 Share Posted 4 July 2017 15 minutes ago, Strokes said: Why would you make school kids wear black shirts? I suspect it was down to the headmaster: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Guiza Posted 4 July 2017 Share Posted 4 July 2017 Whilst I would consider myself fairly well read on politics, I do have a large black hole when it comes to economics. However, to me, it would seem that comparing economic statistics 9 years on from a global economic recession compared with 1/2 years on seems a little imbalanced. Also, on the topic of unemployment, I think it would be fairer to say that rather than reducing unemployment the Tories have instead chosen to redefine it. Zero hour contracts being a particular assistance to them. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 4 July 2017 Share Posted 4 July 2017 3 minutes ago, David Guiza said: Whilst I would consider myself fairly well read on politics, I do have a large black hole when it comes to economics. However, to me, it would seem that comparing economic statistics 9 years on from a global economic recession compared with 1/2 years on seems a little imbalanced. Also, on the topic of unemployment, I think it would be fairer to say that rather than reducing unemployment the Tories have instead chosen to redefine it. Zero hour contracts being a particular assistance to them. Are all zero hour contracts bad then? What about bank nurses or supply teachers. Were zero hour contracts the spawn of conservatives and did they not exist under Labour back in 2010? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 4 July 2017 Share Posted 4 July 2017 9 minutes ago, David Guiza said: Whilst I would consider myself fairly well read on politics, I do have a large black hole when it comes to economics. However, to me, it would seem that comparing economic statistics 9 years on from a global economic recession compared with 1/2 years on seems a little imbalanced. Also, on the topic of unemployment, I think it would be fairer to say that rather than reducing unemployment the Tories have instead chosen to redefine it. Zero hour contracts being a particular assistance to them. When people are telling us what a terrible state the economy is in and how badly run it is by the tories a few facts help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Guiza Posted 4 July 2017 Share Posted 4 July 2017 5 minutes ago, Strokes said: Are all zero hour contracts bad then? What about bank nurses or supply teachers. Were zero hour contracts the spawn of conservatives and did they not exist under Labour back in 2010? Not at all, there are of course positives, but it definitely assists when manipulating employment statistics. Yes, they did exist back in 2010 and beyond that, but not in numbers around 1 million. I suspect the rapid growth in zero hour employees may have at least as much to do with fact fudging as it does with an increased drive in supply teachers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 4 July 2017 Share Posted 4 July 2017 1 hour ago, David Guiza said: Not at all, there are of course positives, but it definitely assists when manipulating employment statistics. Yes, they did exist back in 2010 and beyond that, but not in numbers around 1 million. I suspect the rapid growth in zero hour employees may have at least as much to do with fact fudging as it does with an increased drive in supply teachers. I'd imagine that free nursery places (upto 16 hours) for 3 year olds has helped this. It's helped getting people back into employment and less reliant benefits then surely that's still a good thing, for them and the nations finances. I am sure there are unscrupulous bosses taking advantage and that does need investigating but how widespread is it really? https://www.theguardian.com/business/2010/jul/14/unemployment-part-time-working-record-high The guardian are reporting that 7.8 million part time jobs in July 2010 (as close as I could find to the end of Labour reign) the figures for part time employment now stand at 8.4 million. So of the extra 3 million jobs that have been created 600,000 have been part time, which is inline with what it was when they came to office. The odd horror story about zero hour contracts, are not reflective of the story at all. People on low wages in this country take home more of their wages than they did in 2010, there are more people in employment and less reliant on benifits and on average they earning more (even with inflation). You can can bash them over lots of things but these statistics seem pretty sound to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matty98 Posted 4 July 2017 Share Posted 4 July 2017 Based on the statistics in that table, GDP per capita has actually fallen when you take into account inflation I think. If you take into account population growth the NHS does actually still have a bigger budget per person surprisingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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