Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Rincewind]

31 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

I think the point is that the man didn't consider the pros and cons of removing the pay cap but simply voted against it just because Corbyn was involved and not for any sound economic or political reasons.

 

Do you have a source for this, @Rincewind?

I will try and find it but some will not like it. But there is a photo of the letter the nurse received. The MP in question has a safe seat so would not be bothered by losing her vote.

[Alf Bentley]

17 hours ago, Webbo said:

 

I haven't got the time for a propaganda war, but cannot let such slanted stats pass by without one comment.

 

- If you were interested in honest debate (I appreciate that you're not), you'd quote your source. I see that sources are quoted for the stats, but someone has clearly selected stats to compile a biased table: Mail? Sun? Come on @Webbo, where did you get the table from - the source can't be that embarrassing, surely? 

- Again, if you were interested in honest debate and not slanted propaganda, you'd quote data for years other than 2010 (immediate wake of a global crash). Got any stats for 2005? 2001? 1993? 1984?

- If you had a pre-1997 minimum wage figure, it would be zero as the Tories opposed the creation of the minimum wage! I was earning £2.50-£2.75 per hour for bar work in 1993-94 (Tory Govt).

- If you had a stat for VAT, it would be 17.5% for 2010, and 20% now

- If you had a stat for inflation, it would show that inflation is now about the same as in 2010....but higher than in any year between 1997-2008: http://www.inflation.eu/inflation-rates/great-britain/historic-inflation/cpi-inflation-great-britain.aspx

(Inflation was higher every year 1968-1991, including throughout the Thatcher Govt, though Major did better after the Tories crashed the economy on Black Wednesday 1992) 

- If you had a stat for social care spending (an area of growing demand, given our aging populations), the IFS reckon it would show a 1% decrease since 2010 - or an 8.4% real terms decrease if you ignore transfers from the NHS budget:

https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/8879 (4th paragraph)

- The NHS budget has increased, but demand has increased even more due to our aging population. If you then add in a rise in total population, transfers to social care and unnecessary bed-blocking due to the under-funding of social care, it's easy to see why the NHS is in crisis.

- UK exports have risen pretty continuously since the 1960s, under all governments, the only exception being when they fell off a cliff in 1992 (when the Tories crashed the economy & devalued the currency): https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/exports

- It's good that the number in employment has risen, but many of those jobs are low-paid jobs filled by immigrants (approx. 2m net immigration since 2010, mainly people of working age?), many more are insecure or P/T and only viable due to tax credits 

 

- Unemployment graph for 1971-2014: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unemployment_in_the_United_Kingdom#/media/File:UK_Unemployment_Rate_Time_Series.png

So, by far the two worst periods of unemployment in the last 45 years were under the Tories...and over decades unemployment has consistently been lower under Labour. The Tories are officially "the party of unemployment", as I fear we're about to find out yet again due to this Brexit fiasco (though, in the interests of honesty, it has fallen since 2014 and is probably back at low Labour levels - for now).

 

 

[Buce]

2 minutes ago, Rincewind said:

I will try and find it but some will not like it. But there is a photo of the letter the nurse received. The MP in question has a safe seat so would not be bothered by losing her vote.

 

All the more reason to post it, Rince

[Strokes]

9 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

I haven't got the time for a propaganda war, but cannot let such slanted stats pass by without one comment.

 

- If you were interested in honest debate (I appreciate that you're not), you'd quote your source. I see that sources are quoted for the stats, but someone has clearly selected stats to compile a biased table: Mail? Sun? Come on @Webbo, where did you get the table from - the source can't be that embarrassing, surely? 

- Again, if you were interested in honest debate and not slanted propaganda, you'd quote data for years other than 2010 (immediate wake of a global crash). Got any stats for 2005? 2001? 1993? 1984?

- If you had a pre-1997 minimum wage figure, it would be zero as the Tories opposed the creation of the minimum wage! I was earning £2.50-£2.75 per hour for bar work in 1993-94 (Tory Govt).

- If you had a stat for VAT, it would be 17.5% for 2010, and 20% now

- If you had a stat for inflation, it would show that inflation is now about the same as in 2010....but higher than in any year between 1997-2008: http://www.inflation.eu/inflation-rates/great-britain/historic-inflation/cpi-inflation-great-britain.aspx

(Inflation was higher every year 1968-1991, including throughout the Thatcher Govt, though Major did better after the Tories crashed the economy on Black Wednesday 1992) 

- If you had a stat for social care spending (an area of growing demand, given our aging populations), the IFS reckon it would show a 1% decrease since 2010 - or an 8.4% real terms decrease if you ignore transfers from the NHS budget:

https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/8879 (4th paragraph)

- The NHS budget has increased, but demand has increased even more due to our aging population. If you then add in a rise in total population, transfers to social care and unnecessary bed-blocking due to the under-funding of social care, it's easy to see why the NHS is in crisis.

- UK exports have risen pretty continuously since the 1960s, under all governments, the only exception being when they fell off a cliff in 1992 (when the Tories crashed the economy & devalued the currency): https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/exports

- It's good that the number in employment has risen, but many of those jobs are low-paid jobs filled by immigrants (approx. 2m net immigration since 2010, mainly people of working age?), many more are insecure or P/T and only viable due to tax credits 

 

- Unemployment graph for 1971-2014: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unemployment_in_the_United_Kingdom#/media/File:UK_Unemployment_Rate_Time_Series.png

So, by far the two worst periods of unemployment in the last 45 years were under the Tories...and over decades unemployment has consistently been lower under Labour. The Tories are officially "the party of unemployment", as I fear we're about to find out yet again due to this Brexit fiasco (though, in the interests of honesty, it has fallen since 2014 and is probably back at low Labour levels - for now).

 

 

The point was to counter the arguments that things haven't improved since the conservatives came to power and that austerity isn't working. Which was the argument of the day. So it's entirely relevant and fair to post data from the end of the crash.

Edited 5 July 2017 by Strokes

[Buce]

11 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

I haven't got the time for a propaganda war, but cannot let such slanted stats pass by without one comment.

 

- If you were interested in honest debate (I appreciate that you're not), you'd quote your source. I see that sources are quoted for the stats, but someone has clearly selected stats to compile a biased table: Mail? Sun? Come on @Webbo, where did you get the table from - the source can't be that embarrassing, surely? 

- Again, if you were interested in honest debate and not slanted propaganda, you'd quote data for years other than 2010 (immediate wake of a global crash). Got any stats for 2005? 2001? 1993? 1984?

- If you had a pre-1997 minimum wage figure, it would be zero as the Tories opposed the creation of the minimum wage! I was earning £2.50-£2.75 per hour for bar work in 1993-94 (Tory Govt).

- If you had a stat for VAT, it would be 17.5% for 2010, and 20% now

- If you had a stat for inflation, it would show that inflation is now about the same as in 2010....but higher than in any year between 1997-2008: http://www.inflation.eu/inflation-rates/great-britain/historic-inflation/cpi-inflation-great-britain.aspx

(Inflation was higher every year 1968-1991, including throughout the Thatcher Govt, though Major did better after the Tories crashed the economy on Black Wednesday 1992) 

- If you had a stat for social care spending (an area of growing demand, given our aging populations), the IFS reckon it would show a 1% decrease since 2010 - or an 8.4% real terms decrease if you ignore transfers from the NHS budget:

https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/8879 (4th paragraph)

- The NHS budget has increased, but demand has increased even more due to our aging population. If you then add in a rise in total population, transfers to social care and unnecessary bed-blocking due to the under-funding of social care, it's easy to see why the NHS is in crisis.

- UK exports have risen pretty continuously since the 1960s, under all governments, the only exception being when they fell off a cliff in 1992 (when the Tories crashed the economy & devalued the currency): https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/exports

- It's good that the number in employment has risen, but many of those jobs are low-paid jobs filled by immigrants (approx. 2m net immigration since 2010, mainly people of working age?), many more are insecure or P/T and only viable due to tax credits 

 

- Unemployment graph for 1971-2014: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unemployment_in_the_United_Kingdom#/media/File:UK_Unemployment_Rate_Time_Series.png

So, by far the two worst periods of unemployment in the last 45 years were under the Tories...and over decades unemployment has consistently been lower under Labour. The Tories are officially "the party of unemployment", as I fear we're about to find out yet again due to this Brexit fiasco (though, in the interests of honesty, it has fallen since 2014 and is probably back at low Labour levels - for now).

 

 

 

I love your idea of one comment, Alf..

[Rincewind]

This is the Independants version. Not so scathing.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/conservative-mp-nurse-public-sector-pay-rise-labour-party-marxists-charles-walker-broxbourne-nhs-a7820441.html

 

These tear his reasons to pieces.

 

https://www.thecanary.co/2017/07/03/nurse-wrote-conservative-mp-asking-voted-cut-pay-pathetic-response-video/

Edited 5 July 2017 by Rincewind

[Darkon84]

 

[katieakita]

12 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

Who cares?  What is it achieving exactly?  Seems a bit pointless to me.

Depends how you look at it, It can prop up Post Offices the organisation Call me Dave said was the glue that holds the fabric of society together!!  it can also offer more affordable loans to the mainly financially excluded working with credit Unions so the very poorest do not need to borrow at telephone number exchange rates from the likes of Wonga and co ensuring that the benefits you are paying many of them does not go straight into the pockets of pay day loan companies and as mentioned on a small scale the French Post Bank generates 1 billion Euros a year profit to their government but clearly it seems a bit pointless to you,

[Jon the Hat]

1 minute ago, katieakita said:

Depends how you look at it, It can prop up Post Offices the organisation Call me Dave said was the glue that holds the fabric of society together!!  it can also offer more affordable loans to the mainly financially excluded working with credit Unions so the very poorest do not need to borrow at telephone number exchange rates from the likes of Wonga and co ensuring that the benefits you are paying many of them does not go straight into the pockets of pay day loan companies and as mentioned on a small scale the French Post Bank generates 1 billion Euros a year profit to their government but clearly it seems a bit pointless to you,

There is absolutley no way this would be profitable as a new venture in the UK.  None.  Post offices need to be merged into convenience stores where they aren't already, or pubs etc.  There is plenty of opportunity to share buildings and services to keep the Post office in towns and villages.  Just needs a bit of vision.

[Alf Bentley]

10 minutes ago, Strokes said:

The point was to counter the arguments that things haven't improved since the conservatives came to power and that austerity isn't working. Which was the argument of the day. So it's entirely relevant and fair to post data from the end of the crash.

 

I've just looked back to check. Previous posts were about various issues: Tory leadership contenders, "sound finances" v. stimulating growth, whether deficit cutting should be the priority etc.

 

Webbo didn't respond to any previous post, he just posted a biased statistical table - without any source but clearly taken from a pro-Tory publication and designed to say "Tories good, Labour bad". Most of the issues covered in his table hadn't been discussed at all in previous posts (unemployment, NHS, minimum wage, tax threshold, exports etc.)

[Alf Bentley]

8 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

I love your idea of one comment, Alf..

 

I didn't say anything about the length of that "one comment", Buce..... 

 

Must work now.

[Buce]

4 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

There is absolutley no way this would be profitable as a new venture in the UK.  None.  Post offices need to be merged into convenience stores where they aren't already, or pubs etc.  There is plenty of opportunity to share buildings and services to keep the Post office in towns and villages.  Just needs a bit of vision.

 

I stayed in a barn conversion in a Cornish village a while ago, and the pub next door doubled (trebled?) as a convenience store and post office.

[Jon the Hat]

Just now, Buce said:

 

I stayed in a barn conversion in a Cornish village a while ago, and the pub next door doubled (trebled?) as a convenience store and post office.

Indeed.  Its a great idea.  Also shared offices for Police, council, etc.  Why not?  Community hub could be all these things.  Sell the excess property to fund the work required.

[Buce]

Just now, Jon the Hat said:

Indeed.  Its a great idea.  Also shared offices for Police, council, etc.  Why not?  Community hub could be all these things.  Sell the excess property to fund the work required.

 

It's commonplace in Ireland.

[Rincewind]

I added another link to my previous post.

[Webbo]

29 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

I haven't got the time for a propaganda war, but cannot let such slanted stats pass by without one comment.

 

- If you were interested in honest debate (I appreciate that you're not), you'd quote your source. I see that sources are quoted for the stats, but someone has clearly selected stats to compile a biased table: Mail? Sun? Come on @Webbo, where did you get the table from - the source can't be that embarrassing, surely? 

- Again, if you were interested in honest debate and not slanted propaganda, you'd quote data for years other than 2010 (immediate wake of a global crash). Got any stats for 2005? 2001? 1993? 1984?

- If you had a pre-1997 minimum wage figure, it would be zero as the Tories opposed the creation of the minimum wage! I was earning £2.50-£2.75 per hour for bar work in 1993-94 (Tory Govt).

- If you had a stat for VAT, it would be 17.5% for 2010, and 20% now

- If you had a stat for inflation, it would show that inflation is now about the same as in 2010....but higher than in any year between 1997-2008: http://www.inflation.eu/inflation-rates/great-britain/historic-inflation/cpi-inflation-great-britain.aspx

(Inflation was higher every year 1968-1991, including throughout the Thatcher Govt, though Major did better after the Tories crashed the economy on Black Wednesday 1992) 

- If you had a stat for social care spending (an area of growing demand, given our aging populations), the IFS reckon it would show a 1% decrease since 2010 - or an 8.4% real terms decrease if you ignore transfers from the NHS budget:

https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/8879 (4th paragraph)

- The NHS budget has increased, but demand has increased even more due to our aging population. If you then add in a rise in total population, transfers to social care and unnecessary bed-blocking due to the under-funding of social care, it's easy to see why the NHS is in crisis.

- UK exports have risen pretty continuously since the 1960s, under all governments, the only exception being when they fell off a cliff in 1992 (when the Tories crashed the economy & devalued the currency): https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/exports

- It's good that the number in employment has risen, but many of those jobs are low-paid jobs filled by immigrants (approx. 2m net immigration since 2010, mainly people of working age?), many more are insecure or P/T and only viable due to tax credits 

 

- Unemployment graph for 1971-2014: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unemployment_in_the_United_Kingdom#/media/File:UK_Unemployment_Rate_Time_Series.png

So, by far the two worst periods of unemployment in the last 45 years were under the Tories...and over decades unemployment has consistently been lower under Labour. The Tories are officially "the party of unemployment", as I fear we're about to find out yet again due to this Brexit fiasco (though, in the interests of honesty, it has fallen since 2014 and is probably back at low Labour levels - for now).

 

 

The sources are at the bottom of the table, tradingeconomics, the kingsfund and gov.UK. Are you saying the statistics are untrue?

[Darkon84]

5 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

I stayed in a barn conversion in a Cornish village a while ago, and the pub next door doubled (trebled?) as a convenience store and post office.

 

Similarly, I spent a week in North (ish) Wales  a couple of weeks ago and the local pub doubled as a convenience store which I thought was a great idea. Even more so as the majority of the produce was locally sourced.

[Buce]

 

Zero hours contracts affect young people's health, study finds:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/05/zero-hours-contracts-affect-young-peoples-health-study-finds

[Alf Bentley]

Just now, Webbo said:

The sources are at the bottom of the table, tradingeconomics, the kingsfund and gov.UK. Are you saying the statistics are untrue?

 

No, I assume the stats are accurate - just chosen selectively to make a biased political point.

 

As I said, I'd noted the source of the data but you didn't say where you got the table from.

Someone selectively took some accurate stats from the sources you mention and used them to compile the table.

 

Where did you get the table from - or did you compile it yourself?

[Buce]

3 minutes ago, Darkon84 said:

 

Similarly, I spent a week in North (ish) Wales  a couple of weeks ago and the local pub doubled as a convenience store which I thought was a great idea. Even more so as the majority of the produce was locally sourced.

 

I have no idea why, but I've always thought that you live in the States.

[Webbo]

5 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

No, I assume the stats are accurate - just chosen selectively to make a biased political point.

 

As I said, I'd noted the source of the data but you didn't say where you got the table from.

Someone selectively took some accurate stats from the sources you mention and used them to compile the table.

 

Where did you get the table from - or did you compile it yourself?

Daniel Hannan posted it on Twitter. I don't deny you could have selected different stats that would have made the govt look bad but I think that table shows the govt's record in a good light.

[Darkon84]

2 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

I have no idea why, but I've always thought that you live in the States.

 

 Nope, I'm in South Leicestershire. It's probably because I've posted a fair bit in the Trump thread over the last 6 months or so. I've never even been over to the US, but do have friends over there and family in Canada.

[katieakita]

14 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

There is absolutley no way this would be profitable as a new venture in the UK.  None.  Post offices need to be merged into convenience stores where they aren't already, or pubs etc.  There is plenty of opportunity to share buildings and services to keep the Post office in towns and villages.  Just needs a bit of vision.

So the Post Banks are successful in every country that has one but wont work here, like I pointed out IDS who was tasked with looking into it supports the idea, as for the idea of combining services in rural areas great that's been around for years nothing new. As for putting Post Offices into Convenience stores in more built up areas it is failing miserably with retailers deciding the risks and social responsibility around dealing with Post Office Ltd makes offering the poorly paid services unviable. You really should not believe everything you read in the Daily Mail

[Jon the Hat]

6 minutes ago, katieakita said:

So the Post Banks are successful in every country that has one but wont work here, like I pointed out IDS who was tasked with looking into it supports the idea, as for the idea of combining services in rural areas great that's been around for years nothing new. As for putting Post Offices into Convenience stores in more built up areas it is failing miserably with retailers deciding the risks and social responsibility around dealing with Post Office Ltd makes offering the poorly paid services unviable. You really should not believe everything you read in the Daily Mail

Easy on the cliches, I haven't picked up a copy of the Daily Mail for abour 20 years.  Neither I suspect have you, you are just quoting the same lefty guff like anyone with a sensible economic argument reads the daily mail.

 

I personally use and have for a number of years several successful post offices run by WHSmith, Tesco, and Martins respectively, as well my now nearest one in a Nisa convenience store which manages to be open from 6am to 10pm seven days a week.  Bloody brilliant.

Edited 5 July 2017 by Jon the Hat

[Buce]

3 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

Easy on the cliches, I haven't picked up a copy of the Daily Mail for abour 20 years.  Neither I suspect have you, you are just quoting the same lefty guff like anyone with a sensible economic argument reads the daily mail.

 

I personally use and have for a number of years several successful post offices run by WHSmith, Tesco, and Martins respectively, as well my now nearest one in a Nisa convenience store which manages to be open from 6am to 10pm seven days a week.  Bloody brilliant.

 

Well, the Sun is cheaper, after all..

Edited 5 July 2017 by Buce