Guest MattP Posted 2 March 2018 Share Posted 2 March 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Buce said: The one thing that I will say in Bojo's favour is that he has a magnificent vocabulary, and I am always learning new words from him. Take this, for example, Autarky/Autarkic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autarky I was watching an old episode of Game On the other night on Dave and the posh guy on it used the wiord "mugwump" - first time I'd heard that was Boris, credit to the writers for getting that out in the mid 90's from the public schools. Edited 2 March 2018 by MattP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beechey Posted 2 March 2018 Share Posted 2 March 2018 Whatever you think of him or his politics, this clip is timeless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 2 March 2018 Share Posted 2 March 2018 3 minutes ago, MattP said: I was watching an old episode of Game On the other night on Dave and the posh guy on it used the wiord "mugwump" - first time I'd heard that was Boris, credit to the writers for getting that out in the mid 90's from the public schools. It has a rather interesting etymology too: "Mugwump is an anglicized version of a word used by Massachusett Indians to mean "war leader." The word was sometimes jestingly applied in early America to someone who was the "head guy." The first political mugwumps were Republicans in the presidential race of 1884 who chose to support Democratic candidate Grover Cleveland rather than their own party's nominee. Their independence prompted one 1930s humorist to define a mugwump as "a bird who sits with its mug on one side of the fence and its wump on the other." https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mugwump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogstanley Posted 2 March 2018 Share Posted 2 March 2018 13 minutes ago, MattP said: Very weird story. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labour-appoints-transgender-model-munroe-bergdorf-sacked-by-l-oreal-for-race-remarks-lb5hldr9n Other beliefs include that even homeless people have "white privledge" and the suffragettes were a "white supremacist" movement. What is going on within Labour towards the issue of race at the minute? Investigated twice by the equality commission in a few weeks and now a decision like this, it seems really strange from the outside looking in. Probably wouldn't be my choice of consultee but if you understand that politicians exist to represent the electorate then you surely understand that part of that is gathering and considering views from all-comers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 2 March 2018 Share Posted 2 March 2018 5 minutes ago, Rogstanley said: Probably wouldn't be my choice of consultee but if you understand that politicians exist to represent the electorate then you surely understand that part of that is gathering and considering views from all-comers. Don't agree with that at all, the equalities commission has no reason to consult racists at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donut Posted 2 March 2018 Share Posted 2 March 2018 (edited) Last nights question time summed up Brexit for me. Ken Clarke, Owen Smith and Nigel Farage all putting their points forward in reasoned debate about Brexit. The little winter Olympic presenting gimp and the apprentice contestant the other two adding absolutely nothing to debate. Every time any kind of reasoned debate, not just for staying but leaving as well was raised, they were met with an audience member basically ignoring everything that was said and just saying "yeah but we voted to leave". Literally no matter WHAT was said no one took a blind bit of notice. The one person that suggested things should have been made clearer and that there are complex issues that MAYBE we should have a second vote on, and that suggested the referendum confused people essentially was laughed at. She might be the only one brave enough to admit it, but shes not the only one who feels that way. Edited 2 March 2018 by Donut 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogstanley Posted 2 March 2018 Share Posted 2 March 2018 3 minutes ago, MattP said: Don't agree with that at all, the equalities commission has no reason to consult racists at all. It's nothing to do with the equalities commission. It's an advisory panel managed by the shadow women and equalities minister. Like I said, don't think they would be my choice, but gathering views from all-comers, even if they are instantly dismissed, is what a good politician should be doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wymsey Posted 2 March 2018 Share Posted 2 March 2018 PM to deliver speech later on Brexit deal plans. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43250035 Feel that it'll be her biggest test yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogstanley Posted 2 March 2018 Share Posted 2 March 2018 4 minutes ago, Wymeswold fox said: PM to deliver speech later on Brexit deal plans. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43250035 Feel that it'll be her biggest test yet. Don't know why she bothers with speeches. She is such an unconvincing orator that her message often gets lost in the awkwardness of it all. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Foxin_mad Posted 2 March 2018 Share Posted 2 March 2018 I hope we get some kind of plan out of this speech instead of more 'beating around the bush' just tell us what the plan is and then lets see if it is something that can be negotiated with the EU. To Corbyn's credit even though he is a lying flip flopper at least he has set his cards on the table, yes it is a pretty crap plan giving us the worst of both worlds, a plan that is likely to rejected by the EU anyway but at least he has come up with something concrete however crap it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beechey Posted 2 March 2018 Share Posted 2 March 2018 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Rogstanley said: Don't know why she bothers with speeches. She is such an unconvincing orator that her message often gets lost in the awkwardness of it all. Because it gets the message across better than a press release? Doesn't matter how uncomfortable it is for her, it's better than a text released to news agencies. When a PM does a speech, a transcript is always released so there's that. She's err, definitely not the most convincing orator though Edited 2 March 2018 by Beechey 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Foxin_mad Posted 2 March 2018 Share Posted 2 March 2018 Its all bullying from the left anyway. Just because she is a slightly unfortunate, uncomfortable looking, white posh Christian doesn't mean she should be bullied by the left. Diane Abbott claims racism all the time of course it is nothing to do with the fact she is a ****ing useless politician. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 2 March 2018 Share Posted 2 March 2018 55 minutes ago, Buce said: The one thing that I will say in Bojo's favour is that he has a magnificent vocabulary, and I am always learning new words from him. Take this, for example, Autarky/Autarkic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autarky Interesting explanation here of the difference between Autarky and Autarchy: http://hull-awe.org.uk/index.php?title=Autarchy_-_autarky "The abstract noun autarchy, with the related agent noun autarch and adjective autarchic, and a separate abstract noun autarky can be confused. They all come from Greek; all contain the element 'aut[o]-' ('self'), and autarchy and autarky sound identical. This is largely because there is no sound '-ch-' in mainstream modern English. In the original Greek, however, the two letters κ and χ (kappa and chi) were different. The word ἀρχός‚ (archos) means 'ruler'. This is quite different from, and unconnected with, the word ἀρκεῖν (arkein), which means 'to suffice' or 'to be enough'. Autarchy, then, means 'rule by oneself' or 'tyranny, despotism', the form of government in which one person has all the central control. (The Greek root 'mon[o]-' meaning 'single, alone', sometimes has a similar function to 'aut[o]-'; hence the word 'monarch'.) This is the word you are much more likely to find in books about Politics, Political Theory or History. It is less ambiguous, and therefore better, to use the word autocracy, which has an almost identical meaning. Autarky, on the other hand, has the very different meaning of 'self-sufficiency', although it sounds the same. This word is rarer than autarchy. It is most likely to be found in texts on the environment, environmental politics and Economics. AWE's advice would be to avoid the word autarky. Use 'self-sufficiency' instead. (In some forms of written English, the Greek letter χ is represented by the English letter 'k', and so the possibility of ambiguity is greatly increased. The two words are written indistinguishably. OED, indeed, records autarky as one variant spelling of autarchy. Here, as is one of its functions, OED is recording a mistaken usage, not one to follow.)" 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Guiza Posted 2 March 2018 Share Posted 2 March 2018 16 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said: Its all bullying from the left anyway. Just because she is a slightly unfortunate, uncomfortable looking, white posh Christian doesn't mean she should be bullied by the left. Diane Abbott claims racism all the time of course it is nothing to do with the fact she is a ****ing useless politician. Diane Abbott also received 45% of all abusive tweets sent to female politicians during the election. Regardless of her (in)capability, the abuse she gets is appalling. I agree that the abuse May gets on her personal appearance is ridiculous. Aside from that time she wore a Frida Kahlo bracelet, that was justified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beechey Posted 2 March 2018 Share Posted 2 March 2018 Anyone know what time May's speech is on? By the looks of the BBC article it seems she really may be pushing for a compromise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 2 March 2018 Share Posted 2 March 2018 16 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said: I hope we get some kind of plan out of this speech instead of more 'beating around the bush' just tell us what the plan is and then lets see if it is something that can be negotiated with the EU. To Corbyn's credit even though he is a lying flip flopper at least he has set his cards on the table, yes it is a pretty crap plan giving us the worst of both worlds, a plan that is likely to rejected by the EU anyway but at least he has come up with something concrete however crap it is. I share your hope for substance, not meaningless rhetoric. But if the advance press releases given to the media are to be believed, we might be disappointed: https://news.sky.com/story/theresa-may-to-outline-her-five-tests-for-brexit-in-mansion-house-speech-11272362 There's very little in her "five tests" that many people would disagree with, but it's largely wishful thinking and purple prose. What does it mean as regards substantive policy or negotiating priorities? It's hard to deduce much more than that she wants to leave the single market....and I think we knew that. Perhaps she could have added something about motherhood and apple pie? I understand that she cannot reveal everything about her negotiating strategy but much of it reads like vague if noble aspirations - and time is running out. We need to be making clear, specific decisions and negotiating them. Some of the fine rhetoric is dubious, to say the least: - Brexit was "a vote so that no community would ever be left behind again", apparently....A reasonable lesson to draw, but how are you going to achieve that, Theresa? She's spouted such "one nation" rhetoric before. - "It was not a vote for a distant relationship with our neighbours"....Is that really true? - "The kind of country we want to be as we leave: a modern, open, outward-looking, tolerant European democracy"....I know Brexit doesn't necessarily conflict with that ambition, but would most Brexit voters really relate to that phrase? - "A country that celebrates our history and diversity, confident of our place in the world"....Are we really confident of our place in the world? Do we still celebrate our diversity when "multiculturalism" is now a dirty word? - "It must strengthen our union of nations and our union of people"....Well, it sure as hell seems to have created divisions between and within our nations and among our people, so far, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Foxin_mad Posted 2 March 2018 Share Posted 2 March 2018 I think she is in a difficult place as she really doesn't believe in what she is doing. It is hard to talk positively about something you have absolutely no vision of. Really if we are going to ever make a success of Brexit if it really is the path we have to take then it needs to be done on a firm basis by someone who has real belief in the project. Again this is why I am struggling to see how we cant just let this go to election. May is in a lose lose situation. The Tories need to decide their position as a party, remain or leave. If leave they need to install a leave leader and be clear on their plan. I then feel the best solution is to have a general election on clear plans, we know Corbyns plan now, if for example the Tories installed JRM as leader and went for Hard Brexit we would know theirs. We then know where our vote is sending us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 2 March 2018 Share Posted 2 March 2018 59 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said: I think she is in a difficult place as she really doesn't believe in what she is doing. It is hard to talk positively about something you have absolutely no vision of. Really if we are going to ever make a success of Brexit if it really is the path we have to take then it needs to be done on a firm basis by someone who has real belief in the project. Again this is why I am struggling to see how we cant just let this go to election. May is in a lose lose situation. The Tories need to decide their position as a party, remain or leave. If leave they need to install a leave leader and be clear on their plan. I then feel the best solution is to have a general election on clear plans, we know Corbyns plan now, if for example the Tories installed JRM as leader and went for Hard Brexit we would know theirs. We then know where our vote is sending us. 6 I suspect there's a contradiction between what the Parliamentary Party want and what the Tory membership want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UpTheLeagueFox Posted 2 March 2018 Share Posted 2 March 2018 McDonnell being anywhere close to power is disturbing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kopfkino Posted 2 March 2018 Share Posted 2 March 2018 (edited) I actually think she did well with it though Edited 2 March 2018 by Kopfkino Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beechey Posted 2 March 2018 Share Posted 2 March 2018 (edited) May "Road to Brexit" speech: ECJ or UK won't regulate in either country, will almost certainly be a joint-mediator UK will not race to bottom with the EU UK wants freedom to negotiate trade agreements Means no Customs Union No hard border between NI and Ireland, no suggestion of how UK does not want an "off the shelf" deal Both parties will need to compromise UK will support EU security UK wants broad and deep trade relationship, more so than any trade agreement in existence UK wants EU and UK to engage in fair competition Trade arbitration mechanism needs to be free and independent Data protection agreement is needed Maintain links between UK and EU nationals Free movement will end after we leave Work permits a possibility by the sounds of it? EU rightly taking a tailored approach on negotiations with UK For example, no precedence on what it wants from fishing with UK Trade at UK/EU border needs to be frictionless as possible UK/EU regulation standards will likely remain aligned UK may want to remain part of Medicine, Aviation Safety and Chemical agencies UK open to financial contributions UK regulator assess more medicines than any other EU country, so deal is good for EU too To avoid a hard border, agreement on customs is needed EU has formed customs union with other countries Means EU would set UK's external tariffs, this is not a possible agreement Possible arrangements: Customs partnership UK would mirror tariffs from border with the EU Streamlined agreement Both sides would agree to coordinate what they do Mitigate customs security risks Maximise automation As well as measures for Northern Ireland 80% of North/South trade is by micro/small businesses These will continue to operate as they currently do Larger businesses will be able to enter a trusted trader scheme UK would not be able to lower standards for goods under plans for UK-EU future trade UK will leave Common Agricultural Policy UK will uphold environmental standards, at least as good as EU's UK will leave Common Fisheries Policy UK will work with EU to manage shared stocks Agree reciprocal access to each other's waters Services New barriers will only be introduces where absolutely needed Want to limit number of barriers for EU to UK, and vice versa Want UK/EU to recognise each other's qualifications An appropriate labour mobility agreement should be struck UK provides 30% of the channels available in the EU We should explore creative options Financial Services UK not looking for passporting access UK underwrites more than half of EU debt and equity issued by EU companies £1.1 trillion in cross-border lending to EU UK wants access to financial services markets Via same regulatory outcomes in both UK wants to secure broad energy co-operation with the EU This includes protecting the single electricity market across Ireland and Northern Ireland and exploring options for the UK’s continued participation in the EU’s internal energy market UK wants to ensure the continuity of air, maritime and rail services Will want to protect the rights of road hauliers to access the EU market and vice versa UK does not want to be part of the single market for digital One of her best speeches, I think, and a lot of policy in there. Edited 2 March 2018 by Beechey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 2 March 2018 Share Posted 2 March 2018 23 minutes ago, UpTheLeagueFox said: McDonnell being anywhere close to power is disturbing. It's funny how they get labelled cold-blooded murders whereas the British Army are called heroes. Bloody Sunday ring any bells? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 2 March 2018 Share Posted 2 March 2018 Far more concilatory speech that I thought she would give, in reality it opens the door for a Brexit that is neither hard or soft, I think it will annoy both the Mogg and the Soubry wing of the party, it gives her a lot of leeway and she was right to point out the hypocrisy of the EU as cherry picking goes, unfortunately pointing that out doesn't really solve anything. Glad to see her mention that the UK's constitution will not be weakened for anyone or anything and that technology will be use for the Irish border issue - we need to get some more detail on this though pretty sharpish. As for those Tweets, there was a simpler time where if a shadow chancellor was found to have a plaque on his wall presenting to him by a IRA bomber he that serious questions would be asked (or at least he would take it down) - unfortunately those times appear to have passed and it's now seen as fairly normal. Quote John McDonnell has a plaque on his wall to the IRA hunger strikers. He does that because he feels the need to promote the peace process. Not because he actually likes these guys. Honestly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxxed Posted 2 March 2018 Share Posted 2 March 2018 Ah, she's pulled Gordon Brown's five tests trick. Implement the decision of the British people Reach an enduring solution Protect our security and prosperity Deliver an outcome that is consistent with the kind of country we want to be Bring our country together and strengthen the precious union of all our people And when one of those don't happen. Guess she'll just, y'know, keep plodding along... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 2 March 2018 Share Posted 2 March 2018 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Buce said: It's funny how they get labelled cold-blooded murders whereas the British Army are called heroes. Bloody Sunday ring any bells? Wow, no idea where to start with that. Would you stick up for a Tory if they had a plaque on the wall presented by Johnny Adair? Are you actually comparing normal members of the armed forces to people who deliberately murder the innocent? If a British soldier had been sentenced to 20 years for murder I can assure you no one would be calling them a hero and you certainly wouldn't defend them if someone did. Edited 2 March 2018 by MattP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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