Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Guest]

‘Astonished’ MPs told £817m has gone unspent in housing budget

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/mar/10/housing-budget-817-million-unspent-astonished-mps?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

 

[Carl the Llama]

32 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Of course Britain is best, why wouldn't I mean it?

[lifted*fox]

Britain is a dump tbh and we're heading further and further down the toilet. 

 

There is a visible atmosphere in this country at the moment. It's divisive and there are some vile people about.

 

We're distancing ourselves from some of the best cultures and places in the world and a system that makes laws that protect us from the damage that a single rouge government could do. 

 

We will only get more insular and destructive as that relationship fades.

 

I would love for us to have the kind of atmosphere / system you have in Scandinavian countries but I genuinely worry we're headed more towards the USA model. 

 

The people in this country are too ****ing stupid, selfish and self-obsessed to ever create an atmosphere / system like that of Sweden or Norway. 

[Sharpe's Fox]

“best cultures and places in the world” electing fascists and eat their tea at about 9 o’clock fvck em I have my egg and beans at half 5 cvnts

[Guest]

1 hour ago, lifted*fox said:

Britain is a dump tbh and we're heading further and further down the toilet. 

 

There is a visible atmosphere in this country at the moment. It's divisive and there are some vile people about.

 

We're distancing ourselves from some of the best cultures and places in the world and a system that makes laws that protect us from the damage that a single rouge government could do. 

 

We will only get more insular and destructive as that relationship fades.

 

I would love for us to have the kind of atmosphere / system you have in Scandinavian countries but I genuinely worry we're headed more towards the USA model. 

 

The people in this country are too ****ing stupid, selfish and self-obsessed to ever create an atmosphere / system like that of Sweden or Norway. 

This x1000

[Guest]

Millions of families on brink face deepest benefit cuts in years

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/10/poverty-benefits-families-cuts-austerity-hammond-poor-welfare?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

 

[Buce]

12 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Millions of families on brink face deepest benefit cuts in years

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/10/poverty-benefits-families-cuts-austerity-hammond-poor-welfare?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

 

 

#acountrythatworksforeveryone

[Rogstanley]

1 hour ago, toddybad said:

Millions of families on brink face deepest benefit cuts in years

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/10/poverty-benefits-families-cuts-austerity-hammond-poor-welfare?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

 

So now that the deficit has been eliminated but the cuts are continuing even harder than ever, can the Tories on here finally see what’s going on in this country? 

[Buce]

22 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

So now that the deficit has been eliminated but the cuts are continuing even harder than ever, can the Tories on here finally see what’s going on in this country? 

 

Don't kid yourself, mate, they could see before.

 

They just don't care.

[Strokes]

Yeah not only do I not care, I enjoy it. It can’t come soon enough.

[iniesta]

12 hours ago, lifted*fox said:

Britain is a dump tbh and we're heading further and further down the toilet. 

 

There is a visible atmosphere in this country at the moment. It's divisive and there are some vile people about.

 

We're distancing ourselves from some of the best cultures and places in the world and a system that makes laws that protect us from the damage that a single rouge government could do. 

 

We will only get more insular and destructive as that relationship fades.

 

I would love for us to have the kind of atmosphere / system you have in Scandinavian countries but I genuinely worry we're headed more towards the USA model. 

 

The people in this country are too ****ing stupid, selfish and self-obsessed to ever create an atmosphere / system like that of Sweden or Norway. 

Sweden is a right mess at the moment, why the hell would you want an atmosphere like that?

[leicsmac]

2 hours ago, iniesta said:

Sweden is a right mess at the moment, why the hell would you want an atmosphere like that?

What kind of mess is that, purely out of interest?

 

And does it apply to the other Nordic countries, too?

[Guest Kopfkino]

4 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

What kind of mess is that, purely out of interest?

 

And does it apply to the other Nordic countries, too?

 

There is (albeit seemingly diminishing) a reasonable chance that an anti-immigration, far-rightish (worse than Farage's UKIP but not BNP) could be the largest party in September. There's big problems in some of their cities with gangs, violence and immigration-related tensions. Admittedly anti-semitism is seemingly normalised here, but its another thing they have a problem with. Sweden is great but its not the valhalla that the grass-is-always-greener brigade would have you believe. It has problems like just about everywhere, though I will grant Norway as a possible exception to that.

[leicsmac]

6 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

 

There is (albeit seemingly diminishing) a reasonable chance that an anti-immigration, far-rightish (worse than Farage's UKIP but not BNP) could be the largest party in September. There's big problems in some of their cities with gangs, violence and immigration-related tensions. Admittedly anti-semitism is seemingly normalised here, but its another thing they have a problem with. Sweden is great but its not the valhalla that the grass-is-always-greener brigade would have you believe. It has problems like just about everywhere, though I will grant Norway as a possible exception to that.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

I would certainly agree that no place is a total paradise, and you're always likely (but not certain) to get a certain amount racial tension when you have sufficient folks of different races in a similar proximity - at least at the start, anyway.

 

However, even given those problems (which tend to be prevalent everywhere), I would still say that the Nordic countries (and Norway in particular, Denmark ain't bad either) beat the UK and the vast majority of the US and other OECD nations hands down in terms of quality of life across the board.

[Sampson]

I would also say that Sweden in general is much more opposed to immigration than we are in the UK and in general Sweden is nowhere near as welcome as non-Nordic people as we are to non-British people. It's still a very homogenised society where even in the big cities like Stockholm and Gothenburg it's virtually all affluent white Nordic people and immigrants are often given their own suburbs in those cities (like Angered etc.) as I spent quite a bit of time there a few years back for work.

Don't get me wrong, it's a great country and the people there are definitely welcoming to white Western European tourists when you go there, but I do often wonder whether a lot of the people who treat it as like the pinnacle of nationhood and what all countries should aspire to have actually been there and talked to the people there. Absolutely it's a much more progressive country than we are in many ways such as it's high level of education and movement towards renewable energy for sure and a lot of countries in the world could definitely learn from it, but It's also a much less progressive nation when it comes to things like immigration and multiculturalism than we (or even the US) are for example.

Never been to Norway or Finland though.

Edited 11 March 2018 by Sampson

[Wymsey]

This type of thing is getting rather tiresome.

https://news.sky.com/story/counter-terror-police-investigate-punish-a-muslim-day-letters-received-across-uk-11284790

I personally know many Muslims who are good people, and don't far them all with the same brush just because one that supports their faith makes a bad name for the belief/religion - just like other religions etc.

Edited 11 March 2018 by Wymeswold fox

[leicsmac]

7 minutes ago, Sampson said:

I would also say that Sweden in general is much more opposed to immigration than we are in the UK and in general Sweden is nowhere near as welcome as non-Nordic people as we are to non-British people. It's still a very homogenised society where even in the big cities like Stockholm and Gothenburg it's virtually all affluent white Nordic people and immigrants are often given their own suburbs in those cities (like Angered etc.) as I spent quite a bit of time there a few years back for work.

Don't get me wrong, it's a great country and the people there are definitely welcoming to white Western European tourists when you go there, but I do often wonder whether a lot of the people who treat it as like the pinnacle of nationhood and what all countries should aspire to have actually been there and talked to the people there. Absolutely it's a much more progressive country than we are in many ways such as it's high level of education and movement towards renewable energy for sure and a lot of countries in the world could definitely learn from it, but It's also a much less progressive nation when it comes to things like immigration and multiculturalism than we (or even the US) are for example.

Never been to Norway or Finland though.

1

As far as I'm concerned, these are the two critical things that they are getting right. Everything else, while important, is less critical.

[Webbo]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

As far as I'm concerned, these are the two critical things that they are getting right. Everything else, while important, is less critical.

Sweden's geography lends itself to hydroelectric power and their timber industry produces a lot of waste that can be burned to produce electricity. When it comes to renewable energy they do have some advantages.

[leicsmac]

Just now, Webbo said:

Sweden's geography lends itself to hydroelectric power and their timber industry produces a lot of waste that can be burned to produce electricity. When it comes to renewable energy they do have some advantages.

That's true enough, and I'm glad they're making full use of them.

 

The UK also has some advantages on that score - island nation with strong tides and a decent amount of wind coming in from the Atlantic often enough - and as @Vardinio'sCat points out in the science thread we're beginning to make use of them too, as evidenced by the proportion of energy now generated by renewables in the UK...which is a really good thing.

 

Nothing to say the UK can't at least come close to catching them up in the future.

[Milo]

17 hours ago, lifted*fox said:

Britain is a dump tbh and we're heading further and further down the toilet. 

 

There is a visible atmosphere in this country at the moment. It's divisive and there are some vile people about.

 

We're distancing ourselves from some of the best cultures and places in the world and a system that makes laws that protect us from the damage that a single rouge government could do. 

 

We will only get more insular and destructive as that relationship fades.

 

I would love for us to have the kind of atmosphere / system you have in Scandinavian countries but I genuinely worry we're headed more towards the USA model. 

 

The people in this country are too ****ing stupid, selfish and self-obsessed to ever create an atmosphere / system like that of Sweden or Norway. 

Things might be bad, but in my my view, they weren't that brilliant in days gone by.

 

My growing up era:

 

Rampant everyday rascism

One in ten people unemployed

Unions and Government both hellbent on destroying communities/bringing the country to its knees (depending on which way you looked at it)  

IRA bombings and an Irish civil war on our doorstep

Football hooliganism on an industrial scale - multiply what you saw at West Ham by 10, then have it at every ground (any Baby Squad members on here,,??!!)

Absolutely desolate, bleak outlook for youngsters

Little regard for workers rights

I could go on...

 

The EU is heading in the direction of the USA, with centralised banking/policies/governance - diluting individuality and culture. The United States of Europe is a genuine possibility.

 

I don't know how old you are, but there have always been tough times. The world is a huge place, and it's easy to get bogged down with the negativity of where you live. Moving away from the seeming doom and gloom worked for me. I've visited and worked in dozens of countries - from the Arctic circle to New Zealand, half a dozen African countries, a couple in the Middle East, North and South America, via China, Russia and the Caribbean.

 

Everywhere has it's problems. Everywhere has good and bad people.

 

No problem with having a grumble, btw       

 

 

[Vardinio'sCat]

6 hours ago, iniesta said:

Sweden is a right mess at the moment, why the hell would you want an atmosphere like that?

 

There is no country in the world without challenges and issues, but I would be suprised if you could provide a wide range of evidence that Sweden is in a 'right mess'. I know Trump thinks there is a race war, but I thought the spike in immigration had peaked. Didn't I see the President/Prime Minister  of Sweden saying precisely this in a White House press conferance a few days ago?

 

Although maybe something has happened overnight that I haven't picked up... 

 

[Rogstanley]

3 hours ago, Kopfkino said:

 

There is (albeit seemingly diminishing) a reasonable chance that an anti-immigration, far-rightish (worse than Farage's UKIP but not BNP) could be the largest party in September. There's big problems in some of their cities with gangs, violence and immigration-related tensions. Admittedly anti-semitism is seemingly normalised here, but its another thing they have a problem with. Sweden is great but its not the valhalla that the grass-is-always-greener brigade would have you believe. It has problems like just about everywhere, though I will grant Norway as a possible exception to that.

Absolutely no chance the Sweden democrats will be the largest party. There looked to be a chance they would become influential in terms of forming coalitions at the peak of the immigration issue in 2015, but support for them has plummeted since and they are pretty much back to being totally irrelevant. It seems the Swedes aren't so bothered by immigration after all.

Edited 11 March 2018 by Rogstanley

[Vardinio'sCat]

7 hours ago, Strokes said:

Yeah not only do I not care, I enjoy it. It can’t come soon enough.

 

You could just move to the US It might be a quicker way to get to the society you want. 

[Vardinio'sCat]

3 hours ago, Sampson said:

I would also say that Sweden in general is much more opposed to immigration than we are in the UK and in general Sweden is nowhere near as welcome as non-Nordic people as we are to non-British people. It's still a very homogenised society where even in the big cities like Stockholm and Gothenburg it's virtually all affluent white Nordic people and immigrants are often given their own suburbs in those cities (like Angered etc.) as I spent quite a bit of time there a few years back for work.

Don't get me wrong, it's a great country and the people there are definitely welcoming to white Western European tourists when you go there, but I do often wonder whether a lot of the people who treat it as like the pinnacle of nationhood and what all countries should aspire to have actually been there and talked to the people there. Absolutely it's a much more progressive country than we are in many ways such as it's high level of education and movement towards renewable energy for sure and a lot of countries in the world could definitely learn from it, but It's also a much less progressive nation when it comes to things like immigration and multiculturalism than we (or even the US) are for example.

Never been to Norway or Finland though.

 

Good analysis that.

 

Countries with little experience of inward migration do struggle more than places like the UK, but obviously we know there are limits to what people can cope with, even in relatively open countries like our own.

 

It obviously doesn't help when our central govt refuses to expand services (like the NHS) to accomodate a growing population, as it has always done in the past when the population has grown (for whatever reasons).

[Strokes]

15 minutes ago, Vardinio'sCat said:

 

You could just move to the US It might be a quicker way to get to the society you want. 

I could say the same to you guys, move to Sweden.