Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Rogstanley]

20 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I could say the same to you guys, move to Sweden.

Can't speak the language and don't like the weather otherwise it would definitely be an option.

[Rogstanley]

2 hours ago, Webbo said:

Sweden's geography lends itself to hydroelectric power and their timber industry produces a lot of waste that can be burned to produce electricity. When it comes to renewable energy they do have some advantages.

We have some of the best geography in the world for renewable energy. Difference is Sweden gets things done and we don't, anymore. 

[Strokes]

Just now, Rogstanley said:

Can't speak the language and don't like the weather otherwise it would definitely be an option.

I guess we are stuck with each other then as I won’t get a green card.

 

[Buce]

 

Isn't it odd how the Tories made such a fuss over Moseley's donations to Labour, but seem strangely quiet about the donations they receive from Russian oligarchs:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/11/litvinenko-widow-warns-tories-over-russian-donations

 

The Conservative party is facing pressure to return Russian donations after the attempted murder of the former Russian spy Sergei Skripal on British soil.

Marina Litvinenko, the widow of another former Russian spy, Alexander Litvinenko, whose murder is believed to have been carried out under the direction of Russia’s FSB spy agency, said the Tories risked tainting their reputation if they held on to the cash.

 

“You need to be very accurate where this money came from before you accept this money,” she told Sky News. “If you identify it’s dirty money [you’re] just not allowed to accept it because I think reputation is very important. [The] reputation of the Conservative party in the UK and all around the world needs to be clear.”

The Sunday Times reported that Russian oligarchs and their associates had registered donations of £826,100 to the Tories since Theresa May entered No 10.

A spokesman said: “All donations to the Conservative party are properly and transparently declared to the Electoral Commission, published by them and comply fully with the law.”

Litvinenko accused May of failing to act to prevent a reoccurrence of the type of attack to which her husband fell victim.

The home secretary, Amber Rudd, has said it is too early to say who is responsible for the attack on Skripal and his daughter, Yulia, but fingers have been pointed at the Kremlin.

May, as home secretary, wrote to Litvinenko after the public inquiry into her husband’s death concluded in 2016. The inquiry found that Vladimir Putin and his top spy chief had “probably approved” her husband’s murder. In the letter, May vowed: “We will take every step to protect the UK and its people from such a crime ever being repeated.”

Litvinenko said: “We received very strong words after meeting in 2016 and I believed something would be done, but we can see nothing was done.”

 

The steps she wants the prime minister to take include bringing in a British equivalent of the Magnitsky act, US legislation that bans Russian individuals from entering the country and blocks their assets.

Labour tried earlier this month to introduce Magnitsky amendments to the sanctions and anti-money laundering bill in the House of Lords.

Speaking on the BBC’s Andrew Marr show, the shadow chancellor, John McDonnell, said the Tories had rejected the suggested clauses for “technical reasons” and urged the government to work with the opposition to implement them.

“What Magnitsky does is it identifies those individuals who are basically found guilty of human rights abuses. In particular it prevents them then operating or having bank accounts in our country and it effectively closes down all cooperation with them. Now, I think that could be remarkably effective,” he said.

On the same programme, the chancellor, Phillip Hammond claimed the amendments created a power the government already had but he suggested a compromise was possible.

“It’s not strictly necessary but we’re seeking to reach an accommodation with those who have put this amendment forward,” he said. “Let’s see if we come to a proposal which works for everybody.”

Edited 11 March 2018 by Buce

[Vardinio'sCat]

3 hours ago, Milo said:

Things might be bad, but in my my view, they weren't that brilliant in days gone by.

 

My growing up era:

 

Rampant everyday rascism

One in ten people unemployed

Unions and Government both hellbent on destroying communities/bringing the country to its knees (depending on which way you looked at it)  

IRA bombings and an Irish civil war on our doorstep

Football hooliganism on an industrial scale - multiply what you saw at West Ham by 10, then have it at every ground (any Baby Squad members on here,,??!!)

Absolutely desolate, bleak outlook for youngsters

Little regard for workers rights

I could go on...

 

The EU is heading in the direction of the USA, with centralised banking/policies/governance - diluting individuality and culture. The United States of Europe is a genuine possibility.

 

I don't know how old you are, but there have always been tough times. The world is a huge place, and it's easy to get bogged down with the negativity of where you live. Moving away from the seeming doom and gloom worked for me. I've visited and worked in dozens of countries - from the Arctic circle to New Zealand, half a dozen African countries, a couple in the Middle East, North and South America, via China, Russia and the Caribbean.

 

Everywhere has it's problems. Everywhere has good and bad people.

 

No problem with having a grumble, btw       

 

 

 

Interesting post this, I probably have quite a lot in common with you here.

 

Whilst I have a lot of sympathy with 'the whole country is going to s**t' narrative (it certainly isn't moving in a direction I would like, pretty much across the board), many things are much better than when I was a kid. For example, respect for women is vastly improved. As I understand it, they struggled to get a mortgage on without a husband's signature, when I was young in the 70's.

 

In other areas progress has been more mixed. A good example here is our employment status, rights and security. I think we are also more divided today. North/South, property owners/renters, proper jobs/the so-called precariat etc.

 

But overall I think that things have improved for the majority, even if the situation of a minority is very tough, and the contrast between the haves and have-nots is sharper.

 

........

 

I listened to an interview with Steven Pinker recently. He is a right of centre thinker, who has a book out which tries to push back against the (partially) media-driven perception that everything is getting worse. For media outlets, negative stories always resonate better with readers/viewers, and sell more papers or get more clicks.

 

Pinker pointed out the the front page of every newspaper could, and possibly should have been '130 000 people in the world lifted out of poverty today', every day for many decades, such has been the progress worldwide on reducing suffering. He even pushed back against the perception of rising inequality, claiming that globally inequality is falling. Whilst this might seem to contradict what we know from the UK, I believe this to be correct.

 

Now I'm not saying that Pinker has everything correct (particularly on matters environmental), but I do know that a viewer of the UK media would easily tend to feel that murder rates are rising (because that is what is on to the front pages), that people are less safe than before, and that paedophilia and racially motivated crime is common.

 

I think we need to be careful to look at the big picture, and to credit unsexy progress when it occurs, just as much as we credit headline-grabbing bad news.

 

.........

 

 The guy that really rocked my world, and made me think that we are very poorly served by our media, was the late Dr Hans Rosling, a brilliant and funny Swedish statistician. I have studied journalism, and knew the skewed priorities of a media that values attention over truth, and the advertising pound over ethics.

 

But I didn't realise how badly informed I (and we) were on even very basic facts about our world. When Hans Rosling demonstrated that monkeys have a better understanding of the situation regarding world population than we do, I was both ashamed and enlightened in equal measure. The man is a genius at communication. Note that he is not above crticism, and his work can be used to push different agenda's, but the critics struggle to lay a glove on his work because he is just using data to educate.

 

And when people say (and I hear this all the time) we cannot address environmental issues because some unspecified group of poor people are breeding like rabbits, we should see that for the cop out that it is.

 

Here is a brief segment of his excellent BBC documentary , 'Don't Panic - The truth about population', only 3 and a half minutes of your time.

 

 

How to end poverty in 15 years, 6 minutes.

 

 

 

And here is the whole thing, 58 minutes, and I'm sure you will learn stuff you didn't know, as I did. Hans Rosling RIP

 

 

 

If you have got to the bottom of this post, I am grateful for your attention.

Edited 11 March 2018 by Vardinio'sCat

[Vardinio'sCat]

4 hours ago, Strokes said:

I could say the same to you guys, move to Sweden.

 

Touche. 

 

Maybe we should both go our separate ways, and  leave the country right where it is. I think you would do a lot better for sunshine (in the US). 

Edited 11 March 2018 by Vardinio'sCat
clearer meaning

[Vardinio'sCat]

1 hour ago, Rogstanley said:

We have some of the best geography in the world for renewable energy. Difference is Sweden gets things done and we don't, anymore. 

 

The situation is much improved in the UK over the past few years. I posted some links on the science and environment thread if you want me to paste them over. I think 28% renewables is the latest figure in our energy mix, with energy sector emissions down to the levels seen in 1890. We are certainly still behind Sweden though, but I don't know how far without looking.

 

Your broad point that things work better in Sweden is absolutely bang on though. We are bedevilled by short-term thinking and the power of special interest groups over here.

If I wanted to have children, for example, the UK is a long way down the list of places in Europe I would want to be.

[Buce]

 

Nail.On.Head.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43364331

 

Brexit: Older Leave voters nostalgic for

'white' Britain, says Cable

Too many older people who voted for Brexit were "driven by nostalgia" for a world where "faces were white," Sir Vince Cable has said.

The Lib Dem leader said the votes of the older generation had "crushed the hopes and aspirations of young people for years to come."

Speaking at his party's spring conference, he said the government's Brexit policy was a "fraud".

The Lib Dems are campaigning for a referendum on the final Brexit deal.

Sir Vince told an audience of Lib Dem activists in Southport: "I've myself been on a journey. I confess that my own initial reaction to the referendum was to think maybe there was little choice but to pursue Brexit.

"I thought, you know, the public had voted to be poorer - well, that was their right.

"What changed my mind was the evidence that Brexit had overwhelmingly been the choice of the older generation.

"75% of under 25s voted to remain. But 70% of over 65s voted for Brexit," he said.

'Very, very white'

The Lib Dem leader went to say too many older voters were driven by "nostalgia for a world where passports were blue, faces were white and the map was coloured imperial pink".

"And it was their votes on one wet day in June which crushed the hopes and aspirations of young people for years to come," he said.

He also took a swipe at his own party's lack of diversity - it has had a lower proportion of non-white MPs and candidates than Labour or the Conservatives in recent years.

"Looking around the auditorium, we are very, very white," he told the party faithful.

"We must prioritise making our party more ethnically diverse."

The former business secretary called the "vision of a Global Britain signing lots of new trade deals" being pursued by his one-time cabinet colleague Theresa May a "fraud".

"Far from opening our arms to the world, we will be tearing up preferential trade deals we already have with 27 countries in the EU and 74 outside it," he said.

"There is no more eloquent testimony to the government's utter naivety about trade, that at a time when the world is descending into trade war, they put more faith in the Wild West warmonger in Washington and the bully of Beijing than they do in our established friends and trade partners in Europe."

Turning to the Labour Party, Sir Vince said that while the party had made a "few tentative steps towards sanity" it was still "strongly committed" to co-operating with the Conservatives to ensure Brexit goes through.

In doing so, he said, Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn is letting down the people he claims to be defending.

"You cannot speak up for the poor and be complicit in making the country poorer," he said.

 

[Guest Kopfkino]

Oh dear Vince, you lost because you didn't understand the feelings of voters and now you want to overturn your loss with a complete misunderstanding of voters.

 

I think he'd be far better leaving matters to someone younger and enjoy his retirement in leafy white Twickenham.

[Vardinio'sCat]

22 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Isn't it odd how the Tories made such a fuss over Moseley's donations to Labour, but seem strangely quiet about the donations they receive from Russian oligarchs:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/11/litvinenko-widow-warns-tories-over-russian-donations

 

The Conservative party is facing pressure to return Russian donations after the attempted murder of the former Russian spy Sergei Skripal on British soil.

Marina Litvinenko, the widow of another former Russian spy, Alexander Litvinenko, whose murder is believed to have been carried out under the direction of Russia’s FSB spy agency, said the Tories risked tainting their reputation if they held on to the cash.

 

“You need to be very accurate where this money came from before you accept this money,” she told Sky News. “If you identify it’s dirty money [you’re] just not allowed to accept it because I think reputation is very important. [The] reputation of the Conservative party in the UK and all around the world needs to be clear.”

The Sunday Times reported that Russian oligarchs and their associates had registered donations of £826,100 to the Tories since Theresa May entered No 10.

A spokesman said: “All donations to the Conservative party are properly and transparently declared to the Electoral Commission, published by them and comply fully with the law.”

Litvinenko accused May of failing to act to prevent a reoccurrence of the type of attack to which her husband fell victim.

The home secretary, Amber Rudd, has said it is too early to say who is responsible for the attack on Skripal and his daughter, Yulia, but fingers have been pointed at the Kremlin.

May, as home secretary, wrote to Litvinenko after the public inquiry into her husband’s death concluded in 2016. The inquiry found that Vladimir Putin and his top spy chief had “probably approved” her husband’s murder. In the letter, May vowed: “We will take every step to protect the UK and its people from such a crime ever being repeated.”

Litvinenko said: “We received very strong words after meeting in 2016 and I believed something would be done, but we can see nothing was done.”

 

The steps she wants the prime minister to take include bringing in a British equivalent of the Magnitsky act, US legislation that bans Russian individuals from entering the country and blocks their assets.

Labour tried earlier this month to introduce Magnitsky amendments to the sanctions and anti-money laundering bill in the House of Lords.

Speaking on the BBC’s Andrew Marr show, the shadow chancellor, John McDonnell, said the Tories had rejected the suggested clauses for “technical reasons” and urged the government to work with the opposition to implement them.

“What Magnitsky does is it identifies those individuals who are basically found guilty of human rights abuses. In particular it prevents them then operating or having bank accounts in our country and it effectively closes down all cooperation with them. Now, I think that could be remarkably effective,” he said.

On the same programme, the chancellor, Phillip Hammond claimed the amendments created a power the government already had but he suggested a compromise was possible.

“It’s not strictly necessary but we’re seeking to reach an accommodation with those who have put this amendment forward,” he said. “Let’s see if we come to a proposal which works for everybody.”

 

So much dirty money in politics. I wouldn't mind seeing strict state funding of parties, with no donations.

 

Us lefties, huh? Always wanting to nationalise everything. 

[Rogstanley]

41 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

Oh dear Vince, you lost because you didn't understand the feelings of voters and now you want to overturn your loss with a complete misunderstanding of voters.

 

I think he'd be far better leaving matters to someone younger and enjoy his retirement in leafy white Twickenham.

I think he understands the reasons why many old fogeys voted brexit very well, and is clearly pitching himself to younger voters who, let’s not forget, mostly voted remain.

Edited 11 March 2018 by Rogstanley

[Strokes]

55 minutes ago, Vardinio'sCat said:

 

Touche. 

 

Maybe we should both go our separate ways, and  leave the country right where it is. I think you would do a lot better for sunshine. 

I think we could all do with some sunshine, for the record my original post was tongue in cheek. 

[Rogstanley]

Just now, Strokes said:

I think we could all do with some sunshine, for the record my original post was tongue in cheek. 

We definitely need more sunshine. Imagine we had some sort of facility to move freely across borders into more sunny lands. That would be incredible wouldn’t it.

[Strokes]

2 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

I think he understands the reasons why many old fogies voted brexit very well, and is clearly pitching himself to younger voters who, let’s not forget, mostly voted remain.

It wouldn’t be the first time old vince gets ignored by a sitting government would it? Remember when he saw the ‘global’ financial crash coming over a year before it happened and warned the incumbent government to address the situation. Poor old vince nobody listens to him.....

[Strokes]

5 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

We definitely need more sunshine. Imagine we had some sort of facility to move freely across borders into more sunny lands. That would be incredible wouldn’t it.

Yeah but it’s not like not having that facility will stop you going places, is it? Are you going India this summer, if you want I’ll find you some cheap flights. 

[Sharpe's Fox]

Geriatric old Vince leading his party to the dizzy heights of polling at 6%. There’s always a place for him back in the Labour Party if he’s happy being at his level as a councillor again, bloke was well found out as a minister.

[Strokes]

6 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

Geriatric old Vince leading his party to the dizzy heights of polling at 6%. There’s always a place for him back in the Labour Party if he’s happy being at his level as a councillor again, bloke was well found out as a minister.

The message he is trying to deliver is, we need to ignore old people.....don’t worry old vince, I don’t think that will be a problem.

[Sharpe's Fox]

Just now, Strokes said:

The message he is trying to deliver is, we need to ignore old people.....don’t worry old vince, I don’t think that will be a problem.

haha great craic that

[Rogstanley]

47 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Yeah but it’s not like not having that facility will stop you going places, is it? Are you going India this summer, if you want I’ll find you some cheap flights. 

Can’t move and live there very easily though. No, wouldn’t go to India in summer as it’s the 2nd most expensive time of year to go, after Christmas.

[Strokes]

Just now, Rogstanley said:

Can’t move and live there very easily though. No, wouldn’t go to India in summer as it’s the 2nd most expensive time of year to go, after Christmas.

How’s is your Oman visa coming along or is that on ice for now?

[katieakita]

42 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

Geriatric old Vince leading his party to the dizzy heights of polling at 6%. There’s always a place for him back in the Labour Party if he’s happy being at his level as a councillor again, bloke was well found out as a minister.

Anyone wanting to take this clown seriously needs to see how he fvcked up the sale of Royal Mail and by bottling evidence of wrongdoing has left the Government owned Post Office facing bankruptcy with senior civil servants facing criminal charges regarding their conduct all things Dr Vince chose to ignore

[Vardinio'sCat]

2 hours ago, Strokes said:

I think we could all do with some sunshine, for the record my original post was tongue in cheek. 

 

It's all good, my 'why not try the US' is a stock reply, also only semi-serious. It is interesting talking to people of all opinions on this thread, I value that.

 

It is also funny to find that I agree with some on politics, others on football, but often not on both, and almost no-one on jokes. 

 

Funnily enough, my other half was diagnosed with carpal tunnel syndrome, and had 4 operations (wrists and elbows) to try and fix it. When the pain came back, 10 years later, she was then told it was really low Vitamin D levels all along. I've read that most people in the UK are deficient over the winter, it makes sense to me that winter sun holidays are a massive draw.

 

[Vardinio'sCat]

2 hours ago, Strokes said:

I think we could all do with some sunshine, for the record my original post was tongue in cheek. 

 

Just realised my post about sunshine isn't so clear, so I have edited it for better clarity. Just meant the US would be better  for weather. 

[Vardinio'sCat]

4 hours ago, Strokes said:

I guess we are stuck with each other then as I won’t get a green card.

 

 

Me neither, youthful indiscretions and all that.

[Strokes]

22 minutes ago, Vardinio'sCat said:

 

It's all good, my 'why not try the US' is a stock reply, also only semi-serious. It is interesting talking to people of all opinions on this thread, I value that.

 

It is also funny to find that I agree with some on politics, others on football, but often not on both, and almost no-one on jokes. 

 

Funnily enough, my other half was diagnosed with carpal tunnel syndrome, and had 4 operations (wrists and elbows) to try and fix it. When the pain came back, 10 years later, she was then told it was really low Vitamin D levels all along. I've read that most people in the UK are deficient over the winter, it makes sense to me that winter sun holidays are a massive draw.

 

My mother in law suffers with carpel tunnel syndrome, it’d be a bit awkward if we were talking about the same lady.