Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Strokes]

4 hours ago, Donut said:

Absolutely amazing isnt it that a little brexit keyboard martyr like you is delighted to ignore almost every single expert or any credible evidence about the economy and is hell bent on making himself and all of his customers poorer. for the sake of taking back control of laws he cant name, getting rid of laws that actually benefitted him but were made by nasty european beauracrats instead of the fine upstanding tossers that are the current government, for the sake of speculative trade deals with nations miles away who have put us at the back of the queue, to protect the brave fishermen of this isle who were already entitled to a fair share of the water despite the fact that he lives 150 miles from the coast and to see immigration stopped at all costs even if it cripples the NHS and other low paid industries.

 

Youre the Daily Mail wetdream.

Which of the laws are you saying benefit Webbo?

[Innovindil]

5 hours ago, Donut said:

Absolutely amazing isnt it that a little brexit keyboard martyr like you is delighted to ignore almost every single expert or any credible evidence about the economy and is hell bent on making himself and all of his customers poorer. for the sake of taking back control of laws he cant name, getting rid of laws that actually benefitted him but were made by nasty european beauracrats instead of the fine upstanding tossers that are the current government, for the sake of speculative trade deals with nations miles away who have put us at the back of the queue, to protect the brave fishermen of this isle who were already entitled to a fair share of the water despite the fact that he lives 150 miles from the coast and to see immigration stopped at all costs even if it cripples the NHS and other low paid industries.

 

Youre the Daily Mail wetdream.

Decent rant mate. Give it a 6/10.

 

Needed some reference to racism/little Englander. Came across slightly more whiney than condescending. 

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Which of the laws are you saying benefit Webbo?

Data Protection and human rights both began in Europe and are hugely beneficial to all of us.

[Webbo]

5 hours ago, Donut said:

Absolutely amazing isnt it that a little brexit keyboard martyr like you is delighted to ignore almost every single expert or any credible evidence about the economy and is hell bent on making himself and all of his customers poorer. for the sake of taking back control of laws he cant name, getting rid of laws that actually benefitted him but were made by nasty european beauracrats instead of the fine upstanding tossers that are the current government, for the sake of speculative trade deals with nations miles away who have put us at the back of the queue, to protect the brave fishermen of this isle who were already entitled to a fair share of the water despite the fact that he lives 150 miles from the coast and to see immigration stopped at all costs even if it cripples the NHS and other low paid industries.

 

Youre the Daily Mail wetdream.

And people say I'm aggressive.

[Strokes]

28 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Data Protection and human rights both began in Europe and are hugely beneficial to all of us.

So nothing that can’t be replicated then?

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Strokes said:

So nothing that can’t be replicated then?

Any law can be replicated. But how much do you trust the Tories to actually facilitate proper human rights covering all of European articles? Workers rights? Right to be forgotten (coming with GDPR)? Environmental protections?

 

The question isn't can we replicate them. it's has the EU caused us to implement laws that are beneficial and that we hadn't come up with on our own? The answer is yes.

 

You're taking the usual Brexiteer approach of hoping that things might happen after Brexit.

Edited 13 March 2018 by Guest

[lgfualol]

Decent speech by May about Russia. Thought she would shrivel and bow down to Russia. 

 

Shame Russia are probably going to kill all the England players at the world cup now. 

[Strokes]

1 hour ago, toddybad said:

Any law can be replicated. But how much do you trust the Tories to actually facilitate proper human rights covering all of European articles? Workers rights? Right to be forgotten (coming with GDPR)? Environmental protections?

 

The question isn't can we replicate them. it's has the EU caused us to implement laws that are beneficial and that we hadn't come up with on our own? The answer is yes.

 

You're taking the usual Brexiteer approach of hoping that things might happen after Brexit.

Yeah I do trust our government either Tory or Labour to get basic protections right, in fact I’d expect them to do it better as they can be more refined and bespoke to our needs. If they get it wrong we can hold them to account as a democratic sovereign nation, as is our right.

[Carl the Llama]

4 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Yeah I do trust our government either Tory or Labour to get basic protections right, in fact I’d expect them to do it better as they can be more refined and bespoke to our needs. If they get it wrong we can hold them to account as a democratic sovereign nation, as is our right.

What human rights do British humans need that other humans don'r or vice versa?

[Guest Foxin_mad]

2 hours ago, toddybad said:

Data Protection and human rights both began in Europe and are hugely beneficial to all of us.

Just for clarity that is incorrect. I am a remain voter but some of the nonsense pedalled about us suddenly scrapping all laws and rights protecting us overnight if we leave the EU is absolute nonsense.

 

Data Protection was originally a UK act started in 1984. The European Data Protection Directive was not created until 1995. Bloody Tory Scum!

 

Again Human Rights also existed before 1998 or the European Convention in 1953 (which Britain was a key participant in creating), Britain has a long history of human and civil rights legislation stretching right back to the Magna Carta and the Bill of Rights in 1689.

 

We aren't suddenly going to become a undeveloped cesspit of a nation overnight.   

Edited 13 March 2018 by Foxin_mad

[Strokes]

26 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

What human rights do British humans need that other humans don'r or vice versa?

We weren’t just talking about human rights Carl but without knowing the whole details of it I couldn’t possibly answer comprehensively. However the human rights act does already have plenty of critics and Cameron wanted to replace with a British Bill of rights before brexit was even a thing. The fact he wasn’t allowed is part of the reason we are where we are.

[Carl the Llama]

10 minutes ago, Strokes said:

We weren’t just talking about human rights Carl but without knowing the whole details of it I couldn’t possibly answer comprehensively. However the human rights act does already have plenty of critics and Cameron wanted to replace with a British Bill of rights before brexit was even a thing. The fact he wasn’t allowed is part of the reason we are where we are.

Fair enough I'll broaden the question: Can you think of any rights, be it workplace/human/other that a British person might require but which wouldn't seem like a good idea elsewhere?  Tbh I thought the whole British human rights chat started after the referendum had been declared.

[Strokes]

12 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

Fair enough I'll broaden the question: Can you think of any rights, be it workplace/human/other that a British person might require but which wouldn't seem like a good idea elsewhere?  Tbh I thought the whole British human rights chat started after the referendum had been declared.

No not off the top of my head but the HRA covers a bit more than the protection of good honest citizens and it has been used by criminals/terrorists to escape justice/deportation. If we can find a way to rewrite it that enables us to keep our protection and them to lose a bit, I’d say that’s a job well done tbh.

[Donut]

3 hours ago, Strokes said:

Which of the laws are you saying benefit Webbo?

There were immigration laws we chose not to act. There were environmental laws to conserve the environment and cut down carbon emissions. There were employment laws that meant workers had rights and that bosses couldn't shaft them, there were laws that meant when you had a car accident youd walk away unscathed, that when you bought appliances they were of good quality and food was good, laws that covered data protection and intellectual property.

 

The point is, for people arguing they want to "take back control" of laws, invariably there isn't an actual thing they can point to take back control of that's either going to be of benefit, or a genuine example of a bad EU law because they are insignificant or they don't get affected by them.

[Donut]

2 hours ago, Strokes said:

So nothing that can’t be replicated then?

Did you vote then to be poorer, but have exactly the same laws as the EU but made by the government in the UK because UK is better and EU is booooooooooooooooooooooo?

 

 

[Strokes]

Just now, Donut said:

There were immigration laws we chose not to act. There were environmental laws to conserve the environment and cut down carbon emissions. There were employment laws that meant workers had rights and that bosses couldn't shaft them, there were laws that meant when you had a car accident youd walk away unscathed, that when you bought appliances they were of good quality and food was good, laws that covered data protection and intellectual property.

 

The point is, for people arguing they want to "take back control" of laws, invariably there isn't an actual thing they can point to take back control of that's either going to be of benefit, or a genuine example of a bad EU law because they are insignificant or they don't get affected by them.

I’ve pointed plenty of things out to you and there is nothing stopping the positive things of EU law or legislation remaining or improving upon. In fact all EU laws will be enshrined into British law upon departure.

[Strokes]

Just now, Donut said:

Did you vote then to be poorer, but have exactly the same laws as the EU but made by the government in the UK because UK is better and EU is booooooooooooooooooooooo?

 

 

And people wonder why I’m flippant in here.

[Donut]

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

I’ve pointed plenty of things out to you and there is nothing stopping the positive things of EU law or legislation remaining or improving upon. In fact all EU laws will be enshrined into British law upon departure.

And youll be poorer. Unless laws pay for things.

[Strokes]

1 minute ago, Donut said:

And youll be poorer. Unless laws pay for things.

Maybe, maybe not. That can never proved though can it as the two scenarios can never both play out?

Edited 13 March 2018 by Strokes

[Beechey]

Just now, Donut said:

And youll be poorer. Unless laws pay for things.

Based on what?

[Bryn]

Really is time to chuck Brexit out the window with all this going on with Russia. Really horrendous time to be distancing ourselves from the international community. We will probably have to be slightly more obsequious towards the US than I'd like as well.

I think all this is the real deal, I think Russia are quite prepared to go to war in the next 10-15 years.

Edited 13 March 2018 by Bryn

[Donut]

3 minutes ago, Beechey said:

Based on what?

Based on the falling value of the pound, our economy growing slower than most of the EU countries where even weak economies like Greece grew at a faster rate than ours last year, The fact that we will be subject to tariffs when we leave the EU and the CBI report saying no brexit strategy will leave us better off.

 

As opposed to those saying the economy will get better based on snake oil and a handful of magic beans.

[Strokes]

Just now, Bryn said:

Really is time to chuck Brexit out the window with all this going on with Russia. Really horrendous time to be distancing ourselves from the international community. We will probably have to be slightly more obsequious towards the US than I'd like as well.

I think all this is the real deal, I think Russia are quite prepared to go to war in the next 10-15 years.

Hang on a minute, what has the EU done for our protection with Russia, apart from roll over and ignore every move Putin makes?

[Beechey]

Just now, Bryn said:

Really is time to chuck Brexit out the window with all this going on with Russia. Really horrendous time to be distancing ourselves from the international community. We will probably have to be slightly more obsequious towards the US than I'd like.

I think all this is the real deal, I think Russia are quite prepared to go to war in the next 10-15 years.

If you believe the EU would apply further sanctions to Russia over this, you're mistaken. Germany, France and Italy all want the current, weak sanctions removed or watered down significantly (to be fair I'm not sure thats your point though). We're between a rock and a hard place, we are by far the most anti-Russian country in the West and everybody else for the most part seems okay with them shooting down passenger airliners and invading sovereign countries with few repercussions.

[Bryn]

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

Hang on a minute, what has the EU done for our protection with Russia, apart from roll over and ignore every move Putin makes?

 

And it looks like the UK are going to have to take the lead in changing that, leaving the EU does not help that.

 

Whatever you think about the EU (558 pages and I still haven't seen a particularly detailed, coherent argument in favour of staying or leaving) pissing it off looks a shit idea with Russia driving on towards war.