Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Buce]

1 hour ago, Foxin_mad said:

Do we know for sure we haven't? 

 

If we have, May had the opportunity to say so when she was asked by Corbyn, but she declined to do so.

 

1 hour ago, Countryfox said:

 

Those Ruskies ought to kick out a load of our diplomats and teach us a lesson ! ...    not sending a sample is a heinous crime ...   certainly up there with poisoning old spies with chemical weapons !!   ...     It makes me ashamed to be British ! ...    i

 

If you were in court accused of something, would you want to see the evidence against you? Or would you be content with the prosecution just saying, "he did it - we have proof but we don't want to share it with you"?

 

52 minutes ago, Salisbury Fox said:

I don't believe that it actually states that an accused state shall be given a sample.  From what I can find: A State Party which receives a request from another State Party for clarification of any matter which the requesting State Party believes causes such a doubt or concern shall provide the requesting State Party as soon as possible, but in any case not later than 10 days after the request.

 

From this I don't believe that TM is not complying with International Law.  She has requested answers from the Russians within the 10 days limit and with none forthcoming has taken a proportionate response.  I am surprised that there is so much defence of the Russians on here given the recent history with flight MH17, the little green men in Ukraine and Crimea and the state sponsored drug cheating.  

 

I don't think anyone is defending Russia (certainly not me) and on the balance of probabilities, they are likely guilty. They certainly have previous for this sort of thing, as you point out. However, since we went to war in Iraq based on lies told by the Government and its Intelligence Services, I think it's reasonable to require some proof, don't you? I'm surprised that as a serving soldier you're not a little more sceptical after losing so many comrades to that illegal war.

 

Edit: May didn't request answers from the Russians within 10 days, she gave them until midnight.

Edited 14 March 2018 by Buce

[Beechey]

 

[Buce]

1 hour ago, Foxin_mad said:

Its not so much what he is asking its more the fact that he is a militant fvcker who always has to do something to be party political or attract attention to himself. 

 

We do not actually know that we haven't sent a sample and neither does he.

 

Fact of the matter is Corbyn and Seamus Milne are cosy with the Russians so have another agenda here. He is quick to criticise donations to the Tory party but he is the one who appears on Russian State propaganda TV! 

 

The man is very strange. 

 

Russia is quite clearly a very dubious nation which is absolutely fine as long as they keep themselves to themselves. 

3

 

Which is why he is asking, not accusing.

[Beechey]

 

[Salisbury Fox]

1 hour ago, Buce said:

 

If we have, May had the opportunity to say so when she was asked by Corbyn, but she declined to do so.

 

 

If you were in court accused of something, would you want to see the evidence against you? Or would you be content with the prosecution just saying, "he did it - we have proof but we don't want to share it with you"?

 

 

I don't think anyone is defending Russia (certainly not me) and on the balance of probabilities, they are likely guilty. They certainly have previous for this sort of thing, as you point out. However, since we went to war in Iraq based on lies told by the Government and its Intelligence Services, I think it's reasonable to require some proof, don't you? I'm surprised that as a serving soldier you're not a little more sceptical after losing so many comrades to that illegal war.

 

Edit: May didn't request answers from the Russians within 10 days, she gave them until midnight.

Given the overwhelming circumstantial evidence and that TM has said that they will get the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons to independently verify the analysis I don't think there is much to dispute.  

 

As I posted previously, the the Chemical Weapons Convention article suggests to me that TM doesn't have to provide the Russians 10 days to respond, it indicates to me that they must respond as soon as possible, no later than 10 days.  It also doesn't indicate that a sample must be provided. 

[Buce]

9 minutes ago, Salisbury Fox said:

Given the overwhelming circumstantial evidence and that TM has said that they will get the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons to independently verify the analysis I don't think there is much to dispute.  

 

As I posted previously, the the Chemical Weapons Convention article suggests to me that TM doesn't have to provide the Russians 10 days to respond, it indicates to me that they must respond as soon as possible, no later than 10 days.  It also doesn't indicate that a sample must be provided. 

1

 

If that's what she's now saying, I agree with you.

[Carl the Llama]

3 hours ago, Foxin_mad said:

Its not so much what he is asking its more the fact that he is a militant fvcker who always has to do something to be party political or attract attention to himself. 

 

We do not actually know that we haven't sent a sample and neither does he.

 

Fact of the matter is Corbyn and Seamus Milne are cosy with the Russians so have another agenda here. He is quick to criticise donations to the Tory party but he is the one who appears on Russian State propaganda TV! 

 

The man is very strange. 

 

Russia is quite clearly a very dubious nation which is absolutely fine as long as they keep themselves to themselves. 

1.) I haven't seen him say that we haven't sent a sample, I have seen him ask if we've sent one.

2.) The bit in bold, do you know that for a fact and if so who is each gentleman cosy with exactly?  I didn't get the impression from Corbyn's little speech today that he holds much love for Putin.

 

2 hours ago, Salisbury Fox said:

I don't believe that it actually states that an accused state shall be given a sample.  From what I can find: A State Party which receives a request from another State Party for clarification of any matter which the requesting State Party believes causes such a doubt or concern shall provide the requesting State Party as soon as possible, but in any case not later than 10 days after the request.

 

From this I don't believe that TM is not complying with International Law.  She has requested answers from the Russians within the 10 days limit and with none forthcoming has taken a proportionate response.  I am surprised that there is so much defence of the Russians on here given the recent history with flight MH17, the little green men in Ukraine and Crimea and the state sponsored drug cheating.  

There is?  Where?

[Webbo]

5 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

1.) I haven't seen him say that we haven't sent a sample, I have seen him ask if we've sent one.

2.) The bit in bold, do you know that for a fact and if so who is each gentleman cosy with exactly?  I didn't get the impression from Corbyn's little speech today that he holds much love for Putin.

 

There is?  Where?

If we did send them a sample what do you think would happen? Do you think they'd say " Yep, looks like it was us after all"?

 

Even Corbyn's MPs are distancing themselves from him, why are you making excuses for him?

[Carl the Llama]

2 minutes ago, Webbo said:

If we did send them a sample what do you think would happen? Do you think they'd say " Yep, looks like it was us after all"?

 

Even Corbyn's MPs are distancing themselves from him, why are you making excuses for him?

Probably not but equally what is the harm in giving the sample?  I can't see it affecting the outcome of our or any independent analysis of the stuff.

 

I'm not making excuses I'm trying to figure out why people find his response so repugnant.  Perhaps you can explain it.

[Realist Guy In The Room]

9 minutes ago, Webbo said:

If we did send them a sample what do you think would happen? Do you think they'd say " Yep, looks like it was us after all".

 

Even Corbyn's MPs are distancing themselves from him, why are you making excuses for him?

Of course not but this is more about

covering our arse more than anything.  I’d have hoped after all the **** ups in the past we’d have learned this lesson.

 

Even if we’re not required to do it, sending them a sample shows we’re not the aggressive party and are happy to exhaust every opportunity before take ng action which is completely the correct thing to do.  May is trying to re-establish the strong leader position but this is completely the wrong tool to do so and is potentially very dangerous.

 

As for the Labour MP’s.  Anybody who bought into the party being in harmony are ostriches with their heads in the sand.

 

Labour have been divided since Corbyn took charge and they’ll stay that way until he’s gone.  All they’ve been waiting for is a moment like this.  Personally, I can’t really see anything wrong with what he said today but because of the recent smear campaigns, the old adage is true.  Throw enough shit, some of it eventually sticks.  

 

Edited 14 March 2018 by Realist Guy In The Room

[Webbo]

Just now, Carl the Llama said:

Probably not but equally what is the harm in giving the sample?  I can't see it affecting the outcome of our or any independent analysis of the stuff.

 

I'm not making excuses I'm trying to figure out why people find his response so repugnant.  Perhaps you can explain it.

Because a foreign power has attempted to murder 2 British citizens and inadvertently could have killed a policeman  in this country with a weapon of mass destruction in the most conspicuous way and at a time when we should be presenting a united front Corbyn is trying to deflect blame from Putin and trying to score cheap points by making irrelevant comments about spending on diplomacy. He is an utter c**t.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

42 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

1.) I haven't seen him say that we haven't sent a sample, I have seen him ask if we've sent one.

2.) The bit in bold, do you know that for a fact and if so who is each gentleman cosy with exactly?  I didn't get the impression from Corbyn's little speech today that he holds much love for Putin.

 

There is?  Where?

I believe he asked may if she had responded to the Russian request for a sample, May ignored this.

 

Milne is very much in bed with the Kremlin he is very much Corbyns puppet master. Often defends Putin attended a propsganda event. Pedals the Russian line this man is incredibly dangerous.

 

https://leftfootforward.org/2015/03/projecting-the-kremlin-line/

 

Corbyn has never criticised the Russian regime in public, has appeared a number of times of Russia today. For a man happy to point out countries with questionable records (some he is correct to) obviously is political stance prevents this happening with Russia which is gine but just admit it! I would respect him a lot more if he was just honest and admitted he is a commie cvnt! 

[Guest Foxin_mad]

36 minutes ago, Realist Guy In The Room said:

 

 

Labour have been divided since Corbyn took charge and they’ll stay that way until he’s gone.  All they’ve been waiting for is a moment like this.  Personally, I can’t really see anything wrong with what he said today but because of the recent smear campaigns, the old adage is true.  Throw enough shit, some of it eventually sticks.  

 

I dont think its about shit sticking its about him being shown up for what he is a dispicable ant british lying cvnt.

[Sharpe's Fox]

both the left and right are unified by Jeremy Corbyn’s stance. Only “centrist” loons and melts are provoking Russia in some sort of Cold War nostalgia wank fest. It’s not the 80’s anymore lads

[Webbo]

18 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

both the left and right are unified by Jeremy Corbyn’s stance. Only “centrist” loons and melts are provoking Russia in some sort of Cold War nostalgia wank fest. It’s not the 80’s anymore lads

We're provoking Russia by not liking the fact they are using nerve agent in this country? How awful of us.

[Beechey]

9 minutes ago, Webbo said:

We're provoking Russia by not liking the fact they are using nerve agent in this country? How awful of us.

I for one welcome our new ex-Soviet overlords.

[Salisbury Fox]

1 hour ago, Realist Guy In The Room said:

Of course not but this is more about

covering our arse more than anything.  I’d have hoped after all the **** ups in the past we’d have learned this lesson.

 

Even if we’re not required to do it, sending them a sample shows we’re not the aggressive party and are happy to exhaust every opportunity before take ng action which is completely the correct thing to do.  May is trying to re-establish the strong leader position but this is completely the wrong tool to do so and is potentially very dangerous.

 

As for the Labour MP’s.  Anybody who bought into the party being in harmony are ostriches with their heads in the sand.

 

Labour have been divided since Corbyn took charge and they’ll stay that way until he’s gone.  All they’ve been waiting for is a moment like this.  Personally, I can’t really see anything wrong with what he said today but because of the recent smear campaigns, the old adage is true.  Throw enough shit, some of it eventually sticks.  

 

As I mentioned earlier TM has agreed to let the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons verify the analysis. This is far better than letting the Russians use misinformation in a similar way to to how they have done for MH17.

[Sharpe's Fox]

11 minutes ago, Webbo said:

We're provoking Russia by not liking the fact they are using nerve agent in this country? How awful of us.

The west has been provoking Russia well before last week. Using sanctions that don’t work against good people has just driven Russians into the arms of nationalism and has been making the country more corrupt and more dictatorial since. The left got 40% of the vote in the 1996 presidential election rigged against them, now they are nowhere if even permitted to stand. We should remove all sanctions immediately to return Russia to some semblance of democracy.

[Webbo]

1 minute ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

The west has been provoking Russia well before last week. Using sanctions that don’t work against good people has just driven Russians into the arms of nationalism and has been making the country more corrupt and more dictatorial since. The left got 40% of the vote in the 1996 presidential election rigged against them, now they are nowhere if even permitted to stand. We should remove all sanctions immediately to return Russia to some semblance of democracy.

That'll work.

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

12 hours ago, Webbo said:

Because a foreign power has attempted to murder 2 British citizens and inadvertently could have killed a policeman  in this country with a weapon of mass destruction in the most conspicuous way and at a time when we should be presenting a united front Corbyn is trying to deflect blame from Putin and trying to score cheap points by making irrelevant comments about spending on diplomacy. He is an utter c**t.

Earlier you claimed that Putin has murdered 2 people in order to bolster his own election chances.

 

Could it be possible May is taking the opportunity to bolster her own image?

 

Its not the blitz. This is not a situation where the populace needs to pull together in jingoism. A bit of calmness isnt a crime and Corbyn hasnt done anything to induce such virtiol

Edited 15 March 2018 by AlloverthefloorYesNdidi

[Rogstanley]

1 minute ago, Webbo said:

That'll work.

Let’s just nuke them instead then.

[Webbo]

Just now, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

Earlier you claimed that Putin has murdered 2 people in order to bolster his own election chances.

 

Could it be possible May is taking the opportunity to bolster her own image?

 

Its not the blitz. This is not a situation where the populace needs to pull together in jingoism. A bit of calmness isnt a crime and Corbym hasnt done anything to induce such virtiol

Attempted murder. Teresa May hasn't attempted to murder anyone. Lets have some perspective here. 

[Sharpe's Fox]

1 minute ago, Webbo said:

That'll work.

That’s how you won the Cold War genius. Reagan made it clear that sanctions would be lifted in Geneva if Gorbachev underwent his perestroika and glasnost reforms. It’s worrying I know how to be a economic liberal better than you do.

[Webbo]

2 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

Let’s just nuke them instead then.

Yeah, being against dropping sanctions is exactly the same as wanting a nuclear war. 

 

Why are you doing this Moose? Okay the brexit sour grapes is fair enough you were always a remainer but this ridiculous leftie act? What's it about? You know as well as I do that Corbyn is a total moron.

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

2 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Attempted murder. Teresa May hasn't attempted to murder anyone. Lets have some perspective here. 

Sorry, attempted murder

 

I mean do you not think the huge reaction from our ruling govt. could be due to their current very weak state?

 

They are pathetic atm, looking foolish and inept in Brexit... isnt it a convenient way for May to demonstrate a bit of strength by making a big show of denouncing Russia?

 

Because they are being ridiculously rash as far as i can see, its probably just to make themselves look better