Carl the Llama Posted 15 March 2018 Share Posted 15 March 2018 2 minutes ago, Kopfkino said: Must try harder, Carl. 2/10. "It was right to offer Russia the opportunity to provide an explanation, but its response has demonstrated complete disdain for the gravity of these events. The Russian Government have provided no credible explanation that could suggest that they lost control of their nerve agent, no explanation as to how this agent came to be used in the United Kingdom, and no explanation as to why Russia has an undeclared chemical weapons programme in contravention of international law. Instead it has treated the use of a military-grade nerve agent in Europe with sarcasm, contempt and defiance. There is no alternative conclusion other than that the Russian state was culpable for the attempted murder of Mr Skripal and his daughter, and for threatening the lives of other British citizens in Salisbury, including Detective Sergeant Nick Bailey. This represents an unlawful use of force by the Russian state against the United Kingdom." An honest to goodness quote, now we're getting somewhere (I assume this is May you're quoting). Shame that you wouldn't do the same when we were asking for what evil Jeremy said to upset you and it takes people getting bored and shitposting about Theresa for you to jump in like the white knight defending what Theresa really said but the end result is what's important, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beechey Posted 15 March 2018 Share Posted 15 March 2018 2 minutes ago, Vardinio'sCat said: Just watched a Prof of European and international relations on Sky News questioning why we have not sent a sample to the Russians, and saying we should act within established political protocols. Our actual initial response felt a bit weak to me, so it is handy for TM to have a bit of storm over what Corbyn said, rather than scrutiny of govt measures. We are in danger of acting alone on this. I'm not Corbyn's biggest fan, and he could have chose a better form of words, but this rush to give him a good kicking when he raised some important points, smacks of a certain political opportunism, from both TM, and some of his enemies within his party and the media. Now I appreciate you could say the same about his points about the cuts to spending on the diplomats, but that is a relatively small dig compared to implying Corbyn is a traitor to this country, yet again. France's President Macron announced that France is to set out plans to "take measures" against Russia in reponse to the Salisabury attack. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vardinio'sCat Posted 15 March 2018 Share Posted 15 March 2018 5 minutes ago, Strokes said: Not really, I work on Thursdays and Fridays with a native Frenchman and never fail to remind him to bring his white handkerchief just in case and he always asks me if I had beans on toast for tea. I don’t think a bit light humour hurts anyone, if you don’t like it, I’m not sure that matters. I'm bored of WW2 references myself, imho it shows a certain backward looking nostalgia that is quite common these days. The blitz spirit, Dunkirk and Churchill have become the founding myth of this country, an idealised golden time when we all pulled together. Does this frenchman make that kind of joke about himself? Or does he just tolerate yours. Do you think a joke about beans is the equivalent to the 'cheese eating surrender monkeys' meme?The Europeans know we are unhealthily obsessed with that era. even though it was the essentially the Russians and the US that did the business. It is almost as if we have very little positive to say ourselves that is modern. Even if you like those kind of references, I find it hard to believe that the Europeans don't see them for what they are. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 15 March 2018 Share Posted 15 March 2018 ...are we really spending the last coupla pages arguing about the nuance of two pretty close responses to what happened in Salisbury and diving into black and white morality because of it...seemingly only because of the party they belong to and no other reason? Good grief. If that's not peak FT it's pretty close. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 15 March 2018 Share Posted 15 March 2018 1 minute ago, Vardinio'sCat said: I'm bored of WW2 references myself, imho it shows a certain backward looking nostalgia that is quite common these days. The blitz spirit, Dunkirk and Churchill have become the founding myth of this country, an idealised golden time when we all pulled together. Does this frenchman make that kind of joke about himself? Or does he just tolerate yours. Do you think a joke about beans is the equivalent to the 'cheese eating surrender monkeys' meme?The Europeans know we are unhealthily obsessed with that era. even though it was the essentially the Russians and the US that did the business. It is almost as if we have very little positive to say ourselves that is modern. Even if you like those kind of references, I find it hard to believe that the Europeans don't see them for what they are. I’m just glad my French friend is clearly not as bored as what you apparently are, as I’m not sure it would be as much fun working with him. I’d probably dread it tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vardinio'sCat Posted 15 March 2018 Share Posted 15 March 2018 53 minutes ago, Strokes said: I thought you were implicitly against mistrusting experts? Switch and bait Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 15 March 2018 Share Posted 15 March 2018 1 minute ago, Vardinio'sCat said: Switch and bait Bait maybe but explain the switch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vardinio'sCat Posted 15 March 2018 Share Posted 15 March 2018 15 minutes ago, Beechey said: France's President Macron announced that France is to set out plans to "take measures" against Russia in reponse to the Salisabury attack. Maybe we could all agree that is good news, even if the actual measures are the important thing, more than the words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryn Posted 15 March 2018 Share Posted 15 March 2018 It seems completely appropriate for the Leader of the Opposition to put pressure on the Government to act in an appropriate manner, we should be as transparent about this as possible, it seems clear that Russia are in the wrong so there should be a minimum of fuss about following international procedures for the investigation of such matters. That being said, providing samples of the substance presumably isn't enough, I imagine like with any evidence there has to be a record of provenance and a chain of custody and I would imagine declaring this too might compromise some of our own intelligence operations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vardinio'sCat Posted 15 March 2018 Share Posted 15 March 2018 2 minutes ago, Strokes said: Bait maybe but explain the switch? Changing the subject. Anyway, gotta run, we can argue more later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vardinio'sCat Posted 15 March 2018 Share Posted 15 March 2018 1 minute ago, Bryn said: It seems completely appropriate for the Leader of the Opposition to put pressure on the Government to act in an appropriate manner, we should be as transparent about this as possible, it seems clear that Russia are in the wrong so there should be a minimum of fuss about following international procedures for the investigation of such matters. That being said, providing samples of the substance presumably isn't enough, I imagine like with any evidence there has to be a record of provenance and a chain of custody and I would imagine declaring this too might compromise some of our own intelligence operations. If that is the case we could have been told. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 15 March 2018 Share Posted 15 March 2018 2 minutes ago, Vardinio'sCat said: If that is the case we could have been told. That's one point I will make. Everyone wants their government open and, above all, accountable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 15 March 2018 Share Posted 15 March 2018 2 hours ago, Fox Ulike said: If you read my posts I think you'll see that i'm not really defending Corbyn. I'm really just asking (as are several others) what the accusation against him actually is. As I said previously, if all you ever read is the spin then you’re just repeating somebody else’s opinion. Go to the Primary Source. What has he actually said that you have taken issue with? As for “being taken in by the man”. You know, if you’d just said that “he could have handled it better” I would probably agree. And my opinion of him would be lowered. But what happens is that he’s subjected to these vague and over-the-top bullying and personal attacks by the press and posters on here; and people’s opinion of him actually goes up! 4 I saw figures a while ago that showed every time the Tory press laid into Corbyn, there was a spike in Labour membership applications. It seems the more intelligent members of the public are seeing through the lies and spin. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beechey Posted 15 March 2018 Share Posted 15 March 2018 "Allies condemn chemical attack on ex-spy" http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43415271 Avengers Assemble! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kopfkino Posted 15 March 2018 Share Posted 15 March 2018 38 minutes ago, Vardinio'sCat said: Just watched a Prof of European and international relations on Sky News questioning why we have not sent a sample to the Russians, and saying we should act within established political protocols. Our actual initial response felt a bit weak to me, so it is handy for TM to have a bit of storm over what Corbyn said, rather than scrutiny of govt measures. We are in danger of acting alone on this. I'm not Corbyn's biggest fan, and he could have chose a better form of words, but this rush to give him a good kicking when he raised some important points, smacks of a certain political opportunism, from both TM, and some of his enemies within his party and the media. Now I appreciate you could say the same about his points about the cuts to spending on the diplomats, but that is a relatively small dig compared to implying Corbyn is a traitor to this country, yet again. I'd be interested to know if he gave any background for why he is asking the question. Having looked at the CWC(and idk know much of international law), I can't see anywhere that requires us to send a sample to the Russians which is the government's stance and anything else I've seen. We have involved OPCW which I believe is the necessary protocol and will allow them to do what they have to do. 36 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said: An honest to goodness quote, now we're getting somewhere (I assume this is May you're quoting). Shame that you wouldn't do the same when we were asking for what evil Jeremy said to upset you and it takes people getting bored and shitposting about Theresa for you to jump in like the white knight defending what Theresa really said but the end result is what's important, thanks. I mean it's fine, we'll go with disbelieving Porton Down because Iraq. A current world leader decided to dismiss his intelligence services evidence of Russian interference and the same people that defend Corbyn in this instance definitely aren't the people quickest to ridicule him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beechey Posted 15 March 2018 Share Posted 15 March 2018 (edited) Quote Salisbury poisoning: UK, US, Germany and France issue joint statement Statement from Theresa May, Donald Trump, Angela Merkel and Emmanuel Macron condemns ‘assault on UK sovereignty’ Peter Walker Political correspondent @peterwalker99 Thu 15 Mar 2018 13.09 GMTLast modified on Thu 15 Mar 2018 13.16 GMT The leaders of Britain, the US, Germany and France have released a joint statement strongly condemning the Salisbury nerve agent attack as “an assault on UK sovereignty” and saying it is highly likely that Russia was behind it. The rare united comment from Theresa May, Donald Trump, Angela Merkel and Emmanuel Macron, released by Downing Street, follows extensive UK efforts to drum up international support for its response to the poisoning of Sergei Skripaland his daughter with the novichok nerve agent. The statement says: “This use of a military-grade nerve agent, of a type developed by Russia, constitutes the first offensive use of a nerve agent in Europe since the second world war. It begins by saying the four leaders “abhor the attack that took place against Sergei and Yulia Skripal” in Salisbury. “A British police officer who was also exposed in the attack remains seriously ill, and the lives of many innocent British citizens have been threatened,” it reads. “We express our sympathies to them all, and our admiration for the UK police and emergency services for their courageous response.” “It is an assault on UK sovereignty and any such use by a state party is a clear violation of the chemical weapons convention and a breach of international law. “It threatens the security of us all. The United Kingdom briefed thoroughly its allies that it was highly likely that Russia was responsible for the attack. “We share the UK assessment that there is no plausible alternative explanation, and note that Russia’s failure to address the legitimate request by the UK government further underlines its responsibility.” The statement calls on Russia to “address all questions related to the attack”, and provide full disclosure of the novichok programme to the Hague-based Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons. It ends: “Our concerns are also heightened against the background of a pattern of earlier irresponsible Russian behaviour. We call on Russia to live up to its responsibilities as a member of the UN security council to uphold international peace and security.” https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/15/salisbury-poisoning-uk-us-germany-and-france-issue-joint-statement Edited 15 March 2018 by Beechey 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 15 March 2018 Share Posted 15 March 2018 A question that I haven't seen asked or answered: If this nerve agent was supposedly undeclared (ie being manufactured on the sly), how come it can so easily be traced back to Russia? How can its 'chemical signature' be attributed to a particular place of manufacture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kopfkino Posted 15 March 2018 Share Posted 15 March 2018 1 minute ago, Buce said: A question that I haven't seen asked or answered: If this nerve agent was supposedly undeclared (ie being manufactured on the sly), how come it can so easily be traced back to Russia? How can its 'chemical signature' be attributed to a particular place of manufacture? Was covered on James O'Brien's show this morning. Russia declared that they had destroyed their chemical weapons stock last year, so would be undeclared. Apparently the phosphorous element of it can be studied to show where it came from and given a time stamp. Idk if you can listen back but it was not long after 11:15. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Ulike Posted 15 March 2018 Share Posted 15 March 2018 1 hour ago, Kopfkino said: Well what else is he referring to? what other problematic relationship has there been between the intelligence services and WMD? Please tell me how that does not relate to Iraq? "both what was actually produced by the intelligence services, which in the end we had access to, and then there was how that was used in the public domain in politics." That's not Iraq? No he doesn't say the evidence for state involvement is "over-whelming", he says the evidence for either state involvement or loss of control is "over-whelming". So the evidence is that something happened, no shit Sherlock. Err yes. That was Iraq. You know, in the old days, if we’d of been having this debate in the boozer, you’d have been laughed at and told to “Shaaaat up you muppppeettt” long before now. The problem with internet chat is that you get none of that feedback, and so can just continue to blindly stumble on until you make a valid and irrelevant point, and pretend to yourself that the whole debate hinges on that single point. Previously, you'd failed to actually mention anything to support your case against Corbyn, so you moved on to Milne, and twisted his words into a new sentence. When that was pointed out, your coup de grace is the confident assertion that the WMD sage took place in Iraq! Yes you’re right. I give in. WMD did take place in Iraq. And so I suppose that working back, what that clearly proves is that Jeremy Corbyn is siding with our enemies and refuses to believe our intelligence services? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Countryfox Posted 15 March 2018 Share Posted 15 March 2018 1 hour ago, Buce said: A question that I haven't seen asked or answered: If this nerve agent was supposedly undeclared (ie being manufactured on the sly), how come it can so easily be traced back to Russia? How can its 'chemical signature' be attributed to a particular place of manufacture? I don't think it was actually a 'chemical signature' but more that an empty bottle nearby that had traces of the poison in it had this stamped on the bottom ... Сделано в России 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vardinio'sCat Posted 15 March 2018 Share Posted 15 March 2018 11 hours ago, Salisbury Fox said: Putin does not need any help with his election, his re-election is a given as he his real opponents have either been murdered or have been barred from running. This was covered on Panarama last night. I agree that is a small consideration, I don't think this is about his domestic audience really, although it no doubt plays well to his persecuted Russia meme. As I have posted elsewhere, I am more of the opinion it about pressuring us, and highlighting the weakness of the rather fragmented 'western alliance'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vardinio'sCat Posted 15 March 2018 Share Posted 15 March 2018 3 hours ago, Kopfkino said: I'd be interested to know if he gave any background for why he is asking the question. Having looked at the CWC(and idk know much of international law), I can't see anywhere that requires us to send a sample to the Russians which is the government's stance and anything else I've seen. We have involved OPCW which I believe is the necessary protocol and will allow them to do what they have to do. I mean it's fine, we'll go with disbelieving Porton Down because Iraq. A current world leader decided to dismiss his intelligence services evidence of Russian interference and the same people that defend Corbyn in this instance definitely aren't the people quickest to ridicule him. Fair question. I don't know, if I see it again I'll write it down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vardinio'sCat Posted 15 March 2018 Share Posted 15 March 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, Strokes said: I’m just glad my French friend is clearly not as bored as what you apparently are, as I’m not sure it would be as much fun working with him. I’d probably dread it tbh. Tbf, I am probably not everyones idea of a great drinking partner. Apart from the Irish heritage (which is Catholic, although my grandad fought for the British in WW1, and was badly wounded at Passchaendaele), which some are aware of , the other side of my family are middle European, from what is now Austria and Hungary. Due to various factors and then WW2, various branches ended up in the UK, the US, the Soviet Union and briefly, France. Some of that heritage is distinctly jewish, but the most jewish ones never made it out. I had some relatives in german camps (none of whom emerged alive), and my (anti-nazi) grandad was in a British internment camp for a while, before being deported on a ship that was then sunk by the germans. My granny carried jewish passports for the Quakers in Vienna (and was lucky not to get caught), and left Vienna in 1938 when the SS came for her uncle and gaurdian's apartment (when it happened he shot himself) I'm a staunch believer in womens and gay rights, but I'm a bit confused about all this trans stuff. It is all a bit of a minefield, although I don't have any problem with people being what they want to be. Call me over-sensitive if you like, but if you had my background you might also be a bit tired of ignoring the subtleties of some of our humour. Edited 15 March 2018 by Vardinio'sCat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post lifted*fox Posted 15 March 2018 Popular Post Share Posted 15 March 2018 3 minutes ago, Vardinio'sCat said: I'm a staunch believer in womens and gay rights, but I'm a bit confused about all this trans stuff, it is all a bit of a minefield I always thought of it as more of a lottery. If I was in a club / bar / rave whatever and some proper fit girl was trying it on and we ended up back at mine and she had a little useless willy in her pants I'd be like '**** it' and bum her anyway. Life is too short to overthink these things, eh. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Izzy Posted 15 March 2018 Share Posted 15 March 2018 5 minutes ago, lifted*fox said: I always thought of it as more of a lottery. If I was in a club / bar / rave whatever and some proper fit girl was trying it on and we ended up back at mine and she had a little useless willy in her pants I'd be like '**** it' and bum her anyway. Life is too short to overthink these things, eh. No one on FT can drag a thread into the gutter quite like you mate 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts