Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Vardinio'sCat]

1 minute ago, lifted*fox said:

 

I always thought of it as more of a lottery. 

 

If I was in a club / bar / rave whatever and some proper fit girl was trying it on and we ended up back at mine and she had a little useless willy in her pants I'd be like '**** it' and bum her anyway. 

 

Life is too short to overthink these things, eh.

 

Good point. 

 

The thing is, I took Brexit quite personally, because I saw it as a rejection of people of my background, or at least it showed a lack of care for the many European migrants (going way back), with a long and fine tradition of being assets to this country.

 

Once it is all over I might get down off my high horse , but I'm English and European, so it is bloody annoying.

[lifted*fox]

1 minute ago, Vardinio'sCat said:

Good point. 

 

The thing is, I took Brexit quite personally, because I saw it as a rejection of people of my background, or at least it showed a lack of care for the many European migrants (going way back), with a long and fine tradition of being assets to this country.

 

Once it is all over I might get down off my high horse , but I'm English and European, so it is bloody annoying.

 

I'm English too fella but I absolutely love how culturally diverse this country is. I can't think of anything worse than closing the door, kicking people out and being surrounded by boring white faces who want to do nothing but talk about the queen, drink tea, eat sunday roasts and hang St. George's flags out of their front windows. 

 

I love being surrounded by different people in Leicester - our Asian neighbours, our Chinese students, our Caribbean carnival. I love trying other people's food and visiting other people's countries - learning about their history, taking in their art and music. 

 

**** me - life would be so boring without such a diverse mix. I've been to Prague, Krakow, Paris, Barcelona, Budapest, Berlin and many other places without so much as a quick glance at my EU passport. **** anyone that wants to take that away from me. **** anyone that wants to remove people from this country who have history here, who have become an important part of our every day lives. 

 

**** anyone who can't see beyond the bullshit headlines about immigration causing all of our woes. Our woes are homegrown - successive governments have bent us over and ****ed us and they've allowed their media friends to LIE to everyone and tell them it's immigrants when it isn't. 

 

So, apparently we can drum up another £52million to increase our defenses against another Russian chemical attack but we can't stump up that money to get the homeless off our streets. It's ****ed up. People are being lied to - lied to right in their dumb faces but can't see it. 

 

Stay on your high horse man - you've got every right to. We're having our future substantially changed and limited for no other reason than LIES.

[Guest Kopfkino]

3 hours ago, Fox Ulike said:

 

Err yes. That was Iraq.  

 

You know, in the old days, if we’d of been having this debate in the boozer, you’d have been laughed at and told to “Shaaaat up you muppppeettt” long before now. The problem with internet chat is that you get none of that feedback, and so can just continue to blindly stumble on until you make a valid and irrelevant point, and pretend to yourself that the whole debate hinges on that single point.

 

Previously, you'd failed to actually mention anything to support your case against Corbyn, so you moved on to Milne, and  twisted his words into a new sentence. When that was pointed out, your coup de grace is the confident assertion that the WMD sage took place in Iraq!

 

Yes you’re right. I give in. WMD did take place in Iraq. And so I suppose that working back, what that clearly proves is that Jeremy Corbyn is siding with our enemies and refuses to believe our intelligence services?

 

I do not believe he is siding with Russia, just that his western scepticism has led him to a position where Russian words rang true to him and thought they were entirely justified questions, despite Russia being seemingly wrong. Even if that's come from his own analysis, then it would seem he is wrong which is equally worrying. 

 

I don't see how it isn't concerning that the man that wants to be Prime Minister does not believe the intelligence services enough to condemn the Russian state for their actions, and the reason for that is the intelligence services were wrong before.  Compare and contrast the response of Ian Blackford, or Yvette Cooper or Emily Thornbery last night, Nia Griffith this morning, Anna Turley in The Guardian today, even Caroline Lucas yesterday. That's all he had to do. What more evidence does he need? CCTV of the nerve agent's journey? A confession? Confirmation from Putin? Maybe we should have asked Hitler if he meant to invade Poland or if he just lost track of where the border was.

 

I really don't think it's unreasonable to question and react angrily to a man who wants to lead this country but whose first instinct was to doubt the intelligence agencies that he wants to rule over (because they have been wrong before but it wasn't Iraq when they were wrong). But you and Carl resorted to petulance and for that I am sorry. 

[Strokes]

45 minutes ago, lifted*fox said:

 

I always thought of it as more of a lottery. 

 

If I was in a club / bar / rave whatever and some proper fit girl was trying it on and we ended up back at mine and she had a little useless willy in her pants I'd be like '**** it' and bum her anyway. 

 

Life is too short to overthink these things, eh.

Fair play to you..... I don’t want to be offensive but I think I’d probably struggle to get my chap interested if there were other tallywackers on view.

[lifted*fox]

i'm quite the deviant tbf. 

[Strokes]

38 minutes ago, Vardinio'sCat said:

 

Good point. 

 

The thing is, I took Brexit quite personally, because I saw it as a rejection of people of my background, or at least it showed a lack of care for the many European migrants (going way back), with a long and fine tradition of being assets to this country.

 

Once it is all over I might get down off my high horse , but I'm English and European, so it is bloody annoying.

I’m only fourth generation immigrant on my dads side, I don’t know if I need to explain it again but I have no desire to stop immigration only control it. I accept there are people that are openly racist that voted leave but by no means does that mean that the whole leave argument should be rubbished. Anyway I’ve got to take my dog to the vets now, I’ll be back later.

[Sharpe's Fox]

Quite worrying how many people hate the Russian people and want to impose sanctions on them because have a warped view of the Soviet Union and hate all it achieved for social justice worldwide

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Kopfkino said:

 

I do not believe he is siding with Russia, just that his western scepticism has led him to a position where Russian words rang true to him and thought they were entirely justified questions, despite Russia being seemingly wrong. Even if that's come from his own analysis, then it would seem he is wrong which is equally worrying. 

 

I don't see how it isn't concerning that the man that wants to be Prime Minister does not believe the intelligence services enough to condemn the Russian state for their actions, and the reason for that is the intelligence services were wrong before.  Compare and contrast the response of Ian Blackford, or Yvette Cooper or Emily Thornbery last night, Nia Griffith this morning, Anna Turley in The Guardian today, even Caroline Lucas yesterday. That's all he had to do. What more evidence does he need? CCTV of the nerve agent's journey? A confession? Confirmation from Putin? Maybe we should have asked Hitler if he meant to invade Poland or if he just lost track of where the border was.

 

I really don't think it's unreasonable to question and react angrily to a man who wants to lead this country but whose first instinct was to doubt the intelligence agencies that he wants to rule over (because they have been wrong before but it wasn't Iraq when they were wrong). But you and Carl resorted to petulance and for that I am sorry. 

You're getting really boring.

[Vardinio'sCat]

3 hours ago, lifted*fox said:

 

I'm English too fella but I absolutely love how culturally diverse this country is. I can't think of anything worse than closing the door, kicking people out and being surrounded by boring white faces who want to do nothing but talk about the queen, drink tea, eat sunday roasts and hang St. George's flags out of their front windows. 

 

I love being surrounded by different people in Leicester - our Asian neighbours, our Chinese students, our Caribbean carnival. I love trying other people's food and visiting other people's countries - learning about their history, taking in their art and music. 

 

**** me - life would be so boring without such a diverse mix. I've been to Prague, Krakow, Paris, Barcelona, Budapest, Berlin and many other places without so much as a quick glance at my EU passport. **** anyone that wants to take that away from me. **** anyone that wants to remove people from this country who have history here, who have become an important part of our every day lives. 

 

**** anyone who can't see beyond the bullshit headlines about immigration causing all of our woes. Our woes are homegrown - successive governments have bent us over and ****ed us and they've allowed their media friends to LIE to everyone and tell them it's immigrants when it isn't. 

 

So, apparently we can drum up another £52million to increase our defenses against another Russian chemical attack but we can't stump up that money to get the homeless off our streets. It's ****ed up. People are being lied to - lied to right in their dumb faces but can't see it. 

 

Stay on your high horse man - you've got every right to. We're having our future substantially changed and limited for no other reason than LIES.

 

Thank you for showing some understanding and support, that brought a lump to me throat. 

 

The thing is I probably have made jokes about the French very similar to what I am now criticising, when I was younger, and my heritage hadn't become political. It isn't really fair to move the goalposts on others, so I think I have to be very clear, in my own mind, what I am objecting to, and why.

 

I have enjoyed almost all of the back and forth on FT, since I got beyond just talking about footy, but I can't be kicking off at all and sundry for jokes that are relatively small beer, in the greater scheme of things. When serious racism is about, pickng up on jokes that are so old that they are virtually written into our subconscious is perhaps, ott.

 

The problem is, for me, I never linked those little bits of humour together like I do now.  Now I'm born here, 50 years old and never lived anywhere else. If I feel like this, how must those many other EU nationals feel, since the referendum? Unwelcome is my guess. 

 

I have a relative who has gone already, to Israel of all places, because the couple feel it will be safer. I told them not to look at any new builds. Sadly, they are vaguely Jewish (ie non-practising), and despite the couple having homes in London and Paris, they felt scared by the rise in anti-semtism/anti-foriegner feeling in both countries and mentioned Brexit as souring the atmosphere here.

 

People are leaving, and England is the poorer for it. When my granny was in Vienna it was the most cosmopolitan city in the world, and in the mid-30's she wanted to be a Doctor, because female Doctors were not uncommon there. Now Vienna, despite still being a beautiful city, is much less rich culturally, because so many great people fled, with many coming to the UK.

 

Now I think a similar thing is happening here, although on a significantly smaller scale.

 

Thanks again for your post. I went to Avebury to see the winter solstice just before Xmas, which happens to be my birthday. Of course there was no sunrise because it was cloudy, apparently there rarely is, this is England after all . It did my soul a lot of good to hang out with the hippies and the freaks for a few hours, I felt there was no fear of the other there, even though it was almost exclusively a white crowd

 

Your post reminded me of that beautiful English morning.

[Vardinio'sCat]

4 hours ago, Strokes said:

I’m only fourth generation immigrant on my dads side, I don’t know if I need to explain it again but I have no desire to stop immigration only control it. I accept there are people that are openly racist that voted leave but by no means does that mean that the whole leave argument should be rubbished. Anyway I’ve got to take my dog to the vets now, I’ll be back later.

 

I think it is obvious that I am still really raw over Brexit, and jumping on jokes that are virtually hard wired into us is not really good form. I will have made the same jokes in the past, and thought little of it.

 

Sadly, I now have a narrative in my head, and being human, I can see the patterns that I never saw before. That is my issue as much as anything, but it is interesting because I was born in Plymouth, and have lived my whole life here.

 

If I was more foreign I would have been seeing shadows of darkness throughout the Brexit process, and if I had good choices, I would consider going elsewhere, as one of my Russian cousins has.

 

I have been considering going back to sticking to football on FT, because kicking off at decent people is not really on. Hopefully I can rein it in a bit. 

 

 

[Vardinio'sCat]

 

Corbyn has 'clarifed' his position today, and effectively come into line with his party a bit more.

 

The implication is that he recognises he got the tone wrong in that initial response, and I think that if he had struck a harder tone, and then moved to his other points, he would have taken less heat.

 

Of course, he would be damned by some no matter what he said, because he is never going to do that bellicose, tub-thumping rhetoric beloved by the right wing press. Calling him a traitor or a spy every 5 minutes is effectively crying wolf, and it does the right wing cause very little good, especially the cause of the (imho) once all-powerful print media.

Edited 15 March 2018 by Vardinio'sCat

[Carl the Llama]

5 hours ago, Kopfkino said:

But you and Carl resorted to petulance and for that I am sorry. 

Cool I accept your apology.

[fuchsntf]

5 hours ago, lifted*fox said:

 

I'm English too fella but I absolutely love how culturally diverse this country is. I can't think of anything worse than closing the door, kicking people out and being surrounded by boring white faces who want to do nothing but talk about the queen, drink tea, eat sunday roasts and hang St. George's flags out of their front windows. 

 

I love being surrounded by different people in Leicester - our Asian neighbours, our Chinese students, our Caribbean carnival. I love trying other people's food and visiting other people's countries - learning about their history, taking in their art and music. 

 

**** me - life would be so boring without such a diverse mix. I've been to Prague, Krakow, Paris, Barcelona, Budapest, Berlin and many other places without so much as a quick glance at my EU passport. **** anyone that wants to take that away from me. **** anyone that wants to remove people from this country who have history here, who have become an important part of our every day lives. 

 

**** anyone who can't see beyond the bullshit headlines about immigration causing all of our woes. Our woes are homegrown - successive governments have bent us over and ****ed us and they've allowed their media friends to LIE to everyone and tell them it's immigrants when it isn't. 

 

So, apparently we can drum up another £52million to increase our defenses against another Russian chemical attack but we can't stump up that money to get the homeless off our streets. It's ****ed up. People are being lied to - lied to right in their dumb faces but can't see it. 

 

Stay on your high horse man - you've got every right to. We're having our future substantially changed and limited for no other reason than LIES.

Top Post...

[Sly]

It’d be interesting to see how people would Brexit vote now, having seen that some of the propaganda was basically lies. I mean that from both sides as well. In a nutshell, no one had any idea what the impact would be, we still don’t know now. 

 

I’ve discussed the issue with both remainders and exiters and have been quite surprised by the number of people that have changed opinion on how they’d vote in hindsight.

 

I can only add to the scaremongering really, working in construction, I foresee a tidal wave coming next year, with works grinding to a halt. I’m seeing projects shelved, left right and centre. The housing market remains flat. If we don’t have jobs. We have a call for houses but it’s getting more expensive to build them, so the price goes up, so the people buying them have less cash to spend elsewhere. I would not be surprised to see us go back into recession.

[Milo]

3 hours ago, Sly said:

I would not be surprised to see us go back into recession.

Jeez... 

[David Guiza]

On 14/03/2018 at 14:36, David Guiza said:

Whilst on the (earlier) subject of schools - the current Government have done far more damage to the education system than any recent Labour Government.

• Spending needless money on changing the grading system from ABC to 123 (you and me girl)
• Cutting arts subjects left right and centre.
• Cutting support staff.
• The fact that the number of teachers that have quit either during their education or in the first few years is astronomical - thanks to the ridiculous workload. 
• The IFS stated that school funding would fall by almost 3% by 2021 - even with the Conservative 'additional £1bn per year'. 
• The recruitment target has not been met for teachers for five successive years.

This is not a case of saying that under Labour we would all have PHDs and the average Mastermind score would be three figures, it's that the current Government are failing both the education system from teachers and support staff to pupils and higher education students. 

 

It's fine though because Damian Hinds is supposedly going to rescue the mess created by his own party. 

 

 

And another http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-43415477

[Strokes]

10 hours ago, Vardinio'sCat said:

 

I think it is obvious that I am still really raw over Brexit, and jumping on jokes that are virtually hard wired into us is not really good form. I will have made the same jokes in the past, and thought little of it.

 

Sadly, I now have a narrative in my head, and being human, I can see the patterns that I never saw before. That is my issue as much as anything, but it is interesting because I was born in Plymouth, and have lived my whole life here.

 

If I was more foreign I would have been seeing shadows of darkness throughout the Brexit process, and if I had good choices, I would consider going elsewhere, as one of my Russian cousins has.

 

I have been considering going back to sticking to football on FT, because kicking off at decent people is not really on. Hopefully I can rein it in a bit. 

 

 

Mate we can all learn off each other, I think you are one of the most pleasant posters to deal and debate with on politics. It would be a shame if you stopped your thoughtful contributions because of a difference in humours.

[CarbonVirtine]

I'm glad I joined this forum (again) The quality and tone of debate is to be lauded. 

 

There are some knowledgeable folk on here and it is both a pleasure and an education to read your posts, even when I might not share, generally speaking, the political paradigm.  

[Guest Foxin_mad]

17 hours ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

Quite worrying how many people hate the Russian people and want to impose sanctions on them because have a warped view of the Soviet Union and hate all it achieved for social justice worldwide

[Fox Ulike]

17 hours ago, Kopfkino said:

 

I do not believe he is siding with Russia, just that his western scepticism has led him to a position where Russian words rang true to him and thought they were entirely justified questions, despite Russia being seemingly wrong. Even if that's come from his own analysis, then it would seem he is wrong which is equally worrying. 

 

I don't see how it isn't concerning that the man that wants to be Prime Minister does not believe the intelligence services enough to condemn the Russian state for their actions, and the reason for that is the intelligence services were wrong before.  Compare and contrast the response of Ian Blackford, or Yvette Cooper or Emily Thornbery last night, Nia Griffith this morning, Anna Turley in The Guardian today, even Caroline Lucas yesterday. That's all he had to do. What more evidence does he need? CCTV of the nerve agent's journey? A confession? Confirmation from Putin? Maybe we should have asked Hitler if he meant to invade Poland or if he just lost track of where the border was.

 

I really don't think it's unreasonable to question and react angrily to a man who wants to lead this country but whose first instinct was to doubt the intelligence agencies that he wants to rule over (because they have been wrong before but it wasn't Iraq when they were wrong). But you and Carl resorted to petulance and for that I am sorry. 

 

We’re two days into this now and you still haven’t been able to provide a direct quote from Corbyn that justifies your “anger”.

 

You’re just working off second-hand sources: which is the same as being told what to think. Don’t you see that?

 

You’re not angry. You’re fake-angry. You’re just evincing the fake outrage that you think is appropriate to the over-reaction to this latest Corbyn stictch-ups. The Daily Mail etc tells you that this is something to be angry about, and you react according to their will.

 

People pretended to be angry when it was said he supported Slobadon Milosovic and his war crimes.. I know you were fake-angry when he was accused of passing state secrets to the Russians.

 

Save your anger for things deserving of it.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

2 minutes ago, Fox Ulike said:

 

We’re two days into this now and you still haven’t been able to provide a direct quote from Corbyn that justifies your “anger”.

 

You’re just working off second-hand sources: which is the same as being told what to think. Don’t you see that?

 

You’re not angry. You’re fake-angry. You’re just evincing the fake outrage that you think is appropriate to the over-reaction to this latest Corbyn stictch-ups. The Daily Mail etc tells you that this is something to be angry about, and you react according to their will.

 

People pretended to be angry when it was said he supported Slobadon Milosovic and his war crimes.. I know you were fake-angry when he was accused of passing state secrets to the Russians.

 

Save your anger for things deserving of it.

I don't think he needs a 'direct quote' to be angry to be honest and I doubt he reads the 'Daily Mail'.

 

The whole of Corbyn's attitude towards this from Monday has been pretty disgusting in my opinion and obviously others, he is being deliberately obtrusive because that is the kind of man he is a militant. Other people within the Labour party have taken the correct approach Corbyn has not in certain peoples views. He has handled the whole thing wrong, and he knows it which is why he is now backtracking slightly as usual. 

 

Obviously the Guardian readers here will never have anything bad said against their comrade and that is not a problem. 

 

Obviously the left get angry about so called austerity and cuts because they are told about it from the Guardian, they get angry about the 'Tory Scum' and the nasty rich men because the Guardian tell them to be angry. It pretty much goes all ways. Have there ever been any direct quotes from Tory Ministers saying the following:

- They will sell the NHS

- They want to screw the poor

- They want the rich to get richer

- They want lots of homeless people

 

 However, the Guardian are happy to print this divisive tripe on a daily basis in the hope that it will feed peoples anger, the Mirror, Mail, Express and Sun do similar. 

 

Much of this is based on a personal viewpoint and feeling an individual has as to how they react and everyone is perfectly entitled to react how they see fit.

 

I think we will have to agree to disagree here.

 

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

9 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

I don't think he needs a 'direct quote' to be angry to be honest and I doubt he reads the 'Daily Mail'.

 

The whole of Corbyn's attitude towards this from Monday has been pretty disgusting in my opinion and obviously others, he is being deliberately obtrusive because that is the kind of man he is a militant. Other people within the Labour party have taken the correct approach Corbyn has not in certain peoples views. He has handled the whole thing wrong, and he knows it which is why he is now backtracking slightly as usual. 

 

Obviously the Guardian readers here will never have anything bad said against their comrade and that is not a problem. 

 

Obviously the left get angry about so called austerity and cuts because they are told about it from the Guardian, they get angry about the 'Tory Scum' and the nasty rich men because the Guardian tell them to be angry. It pretty much goes all ways. Have there ever been any direct quotes from Tory Ministers saying the following:

- They will sell the NHS

- They want to screw the poor

- They want the rich to get richer

- They want lots of homeless people

 

 However, the Guardian are happy to print this divisive tripe on a daily basis in the hope that it will feed peoples anger, the Mirror, Mail, Express and Sun do similar. 

 

Much of this is based on a personal viewpoint and feeling an individual has as to how they react and everyone is perfectly entitled to react how they see fit.

 

I think we will have to agree to disagree here.

 

http://therealnews.com/t2/story:21371:Corbyn-Calls-for-Evidence-in-Escalating-Poison-Row

 

Posted this elsewhere

 

There are other perspectives about this matter and it is a bit worrying that we have such a singular view that the things Corbyn has said, which are barely noteworthy in themeslves, are viewed digusting

 

Edited 16 March 2018 by AlloverthefloorYesNdidi

[Carl the Llama]

Corbyn's a very naughty boy.

[Beechey]

Just now, Carl the Llama said:

Corbyn's a very naughty boy.

[Guest]

Imagine how teresa may would look doing this

#manofthepeople