Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Milo]

5 hours ago, Vardinio'sCat said:

I basically agree that austerity has been ripping the social fabric of this country apart. I would bet my last pound that Brexit would never have won if this ideologically driven madness had not been sold to the country. It has been known since the 30's how you deal with recessions, and it isn't like this.

Hmmm...

 

Lack of investment and management, agreed. 

 

If you cast your mind back, Brexit was fought, and voted for, predominantly on immigration and the objection to paying vast sums of money into the corrup swollen slug that is the EU. 

 

Surely limiting the the amount of people that don’t pay into the system from using public services, and not handing over vast sums of money in times of austerity is a sensible idea, no?

 

World didn’t end and the country hasn’t collapsed as promised (not merely suggested, absolutely promised, remember) by the remainers. 

 

But If in doubt, blame Brexit!

 

[Buce]

4 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Ah it was a cheap shot anyway. Wasted on you buce

 

 

Yeah, I'm too thick to understand the clever stuff.

[Rogstanley]

I was going to say May's words ring hollow but that doesn't really do it justice. There's no ringing; no sense or suspicion of hollowness, but rather an obvious and total absence of honesty to the point where it really does feel quite sinister.

 

That she can say that public services face challenges, in effect distancing herself from the cause of those challenges, when she is in fact currently the number one reason why those challenges exist while keeping a straight face is both impressive and sickening.

 

Four in ten parents in this country are having to dig into their own pockets to find money to give to their kid's schools just to keep them operating as a direct consequence of Tory funding decisions and May sits there in her ivory tower talking about challenges. We know the biggest challenge they face, Theresa: you. 

Edited 17 March 2018 by Rogstanley

[Rogstanley]

10 minutes ago, Milo said:

 

 

Surely limiting the the amount of people that don’t pay into the system from using public services, and not handing over vast sums of money in times of austerity is a sensible idea, no?

 

 

EU immigrants have been shown to make a net financial contribution to the UK.

 

If the forecasts are anywhere near correct the amount of money we will lose because of brexit dwarfs the money saved in EU contributions.

 

I believe it was even shown that the collapse in the value of the pound as a consequence of the vote had already caused the uk's debt interest payments to increase by an amount already larger than the amount potentially saved in EU contributions.

 

Even without the above, how many years to we have to wait before these savings are realised now that May has given in to all of the EU's demands on the divorce bill.

 

If saving the government money is priority number one why did no Tory complain when May paid billions to the DUP to save her career?

[Izzy]

10 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

I was going to say May's words ring hollow but that doesn't really do it justice. There's no ringing; no sense or suspicion of hollowness, but rather an obvious and total absence of honesty to the point where it really does feel quite sinister.

 

That she can say that public services face challenges, in effect distancing herself from the cause of those challenges, when she is in fact currently the number one reason why those challenges exist while keeping a straight face is both impressive and sickening.

 

Four in ten parents in this country are having to dig into their own pockets to find money to give to their kid's schools just to keep them operating as a direct consequence of Tory funding decisions and May sits there in her ivory tower talking about challenges. We know the biggest challenge they face, Theresa: you. 

Austerity has been going on for years. She’s been PM for less than two. Why do you have to always make it a personal attack on her?

[Strokes]

9 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Yeah, I'm too thick to understand the clever stuff.

Crikey it was just meant as a bit of lighthearted humour, maybe I got it wrong. No offence intended.

You were right earlier, it’s too early for this shit, see you later.

[Buce]

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

Crikey it was just meant as a bit of lighthearted humour, maybe I got it wrong. No offence intended.

You were right earlier, it’s too early for this shit, see you later.

 

Chill, Strokes - I took it in the way it was intended

 

I was just being self-depreciating.

[Guest]

33 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

She cares 

 

She will talk about her own story. “Mine starts with state schools which helped me to get into a great university and set me on course for a rewarding career … When I was diagnosed with diabetes, the NHS was there for me. Skilled and compassionate, helping me every step of the way to manage my condition and live a normal life. I rely on the NHS everyday and I am eternally grateful to them.”

It just isn't possible to square the claims of caring with the reality of outcomes caused by ongoing cuts. 

[Rogstanley]

6 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

Austerity has been going on for years. She’s been PM for less than two. Why do you have to always make it a personal attack on her?

Because she's the prime minister. If she wanted to reverse austerity she could. She is in fact the only person who could.

[Lionator]

1 hour ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

Austerity has been going on for years. She’s been PM for less than two. Why do you have to always make it a personal attack on her?

She was also home secretary before and oversaw many of the cuts to the public services. Ask any member of the Police what they think of Theresa May and you won't get anything other than a very negative response. 

[Milo]

1 hour ago, Rogstanley said:

EU immigrants have been shown to make a net financial contribution to the UK.

 

If the forecasts are anywhere near correct the amount of money we will lose because of brexit dwarfs the money saved in EU contributions.

 

I believe it was even shown that the collapse in the value of the pound as a consequence of the vote had already caused the uk's debt interest payments to increase by an amount already larger than the amount potentially saved in EU contributions.

 

Even without the above, how many years to we have to wait before these savings are realised now that May has given in to all of the EU's demands on the divorce bill.

 

If saving the government money is priority number one why did no Tory complain when May paid billions to the DUP to save her career?

Firstly, I think May is a much of a twat as Corbyn. 

 

The migration issue is more of a issue of how much people pay into the system for how long. 

 

I’ve been paying in to the pot via tax/NI for 30 years - by their very nature, nobody who comes into this country from a different one has. 

 

If the balance of ins/outs is skewed, then the pot depreciates while the demand increases. 

 

Its not politics, it’s common sense. 

[Sharpe's Fox]

2 hours ago, Buce said:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/17/people-dont-trust-us-on-nhs-and-schools-theresa-may-admits

 

No shit, Sherlock.

Haha she is Labour-lite. Shows the Marxists are winning the argument

[Rogstanley]

3 minutes ago, Milo said:

Firstly, I think May is a much of a twat as Corbyn. 

 

The migration issue is more of a issue of how much people pay into the system for how long. 

 

I’ve been paying in to the pot via tax/NI for 30 years - by their very nature, nobody who comes into this country from a different one has. 

 

If the balance of ins/outs is skewed, then the pot depreciates while the demand increases. 

 

Its not politics, it’s common sense. 

You’ve been taking from the pot for just as long, or at least the average British citizen has. EU migrants contribute to the pot on average. It’s not politics or common sense, it’s statistical reality.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Milo said:

Hmmm...

 

Lack of investment and management, agreed. 

 

If you cast your mind back, Brexit was fought, and voted for, predominantly on immigration and the objection to paying vast sums of money into the corrup swollen slug that is the EU. 

 

Surely limiting the the amount of people that don’t pay into the system from using public services, and not handing over vast sums of money in times of austerity is a sensible idea, no?

 

World didn’t end and the country hasn’t collapsed as promised (not merely suggested, absolutely promised, remember) by the remainers. 

 

But If in doubt, blame Brexit!

 

More immigrants = greater productivity = greater gdp and taxation

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, Milo said:

Firstly, I think May is a much of a twat as Corbyn. 

 

The migration issue is more of a issue of how much people pay into the system for how long. 

 

I’ve been paying in to the pot via tax/NI for 30 years - by their very nature, nobody who comes into this country from a different one has. 

 

If the balance of ins/outs is skewed, then the pot depreciates while the demand increases. 

 

Its not politics, it’s common sense. 

You haven't paid into a pot. You've paid taxes which paid for services you and we used. They paid taxes in their countries for the same thing until their arrival here. The vast majority of immigrants pay taxes in this country to pay for the services they're using.

If you paid into a pot that was saved up for you it would be worthless given the rate of inflation.

Edited 17 March 2018 by Guest

[Milo]

3 minutes ago, toddybad said:

More immigrants = greater productivity = greater gdp and taxation

Yep - in a controlled system - not the free for all fvckfest we currently have

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Milo said:

Yep - in a controlled system - not the free for all fvckfest we currently have

You mean the one with record low unemployment?

 

[Milo]

3 minutes ago, toddybad said:

You mean the one with record low unemployment

What?

 

Seriously, wtf 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Milo said:

What?

 

Seriously, wtf 

Not sure why the laugh?

Your claim is that immigrants are coming over and not paying into the system.

We have record unemployment and both government and independent analysis has concluded that immigrants are net contributors. You're wrong.

 

Half they problem with Brexit is that there is a sort of logic to the arguments. You can see a valid looking argument that between the Brexit arguments. But none of them are backed up by statistics or analysis. They're pure rhetoric.

[Strokes]

4 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Not sure why the laugh?

Your claim is that immigrants are coming over and not paying into the system.

We have record unemployment and both government and independent analysis has concluded that immigrants are net contributors. You're wrong.

 

Half they problem with Brexit is that there is a sort of logic to the arguments. You can see a valid looking argument that between the Brexit arguments. But none of them are backed up by statistics or analysis. They're pure rhetoric.

Right, just because on a whole immigration is a positive net contributor to the uk economy, it doesn’t mean the system can’t be improved by making it more difficult for less skilled/lower value to come does it?

The productivity in this country is abysmal, because in the lowest paid industries staff are not getting training, it seems employers are happy to employ more on lower wages than invest to increase output. You are constantly moaning about employees on zero hour contracts, wages not rising for a decade. Yet you refuse to see uncontrolled migration as any part of the cause. Nobody here is saying all migration is bad, the numbers mean nothing I’m happy for there to be more if they all quality skills, or in areas we are short. But do DHL, TNT, Amazon warehouses need as many low trained employees on zero hour contracts/agency or should they get more production out of less and pay them a better wage?

[Milo]

16 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Not sure why the laugh?

Your claim is that immigrants are coming over and not paying into the system.

We have record unemployment and both government and independent analysis has concluded that immigrants are net contributors. You're wrong.

 

Half they problem with Brexit is that there is a sort of logic to the arguments. You can see a valid looking argument that between the Brexit arguments. But none of them are backed up by statistics or analysis. They're pure rhetoric.

I think immigration is good and healthy, I think uncontrolled immigration is bad and damaging. 

 

I don't have any statistics to back up why I feel that way. 

 

Sorry

[Trav Le Bleu]

 

[Buce]

45 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Right, just because on a whole immigration is a positive net contributor to the uk economy, it doesn’t mean the system can’t be improved by making it more difficult for less skilled/lower value to come does it?

The productivity in this country is abysmal, because in the lowest paid industries staff are not getting training, it seems employers are happy to employ more on lower wages than invest to increase output. You are constantly moaning about employees on zero hour contracts, wages not rising for a decade. Yet you refuse to see uncontrolled migration as any part of the cause. Nobody here is saying all migration is bad, the numbers mean nothing I’m happy for there to be more if they all quality skills, or in areas we are short. But do DHL, TNT, Amazon warehouses need as many low trained employees on zero hour contracts/agency or should they get more production out of less and pay them a better wage?

 

For what it's worth I feel similarly about immigration, but as far as Brexit is concerned I see it as a case of throwing out the baby with the bath water - the EU is about so much more than freedom of movement. And it's not even as if that's where the majority of unskilled immigrants come from - immigration from non-EU countries exceeds that of EU countries. We've always had the option of limiting that immigration but chose not to. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Milo said:

I think immigration is good and healthy, I think uncontrolled immigration is bad and damaging. 

 

I don't have any statistics to back up why I feel that way. 

 

Sorry

And that, my friend, is the problem.

 

As with buce, I do have some issues around immigration - housing, services etc. So I'm not claiming there are no issues. But discussion of immigrating on the right doesn't tend to focus on those issues.

 

The issues you raise are false, frankly. Bit they've been highlighted so many times by the sun, mail, UKIP etc over such a long period (with nobody bothering to tell the other side of the story) that many have accepted then as facts without actually knowing that the stats are contrary to this perception. They're just not true.

 

I've worked in the welfare system investigating fraud. I can tell you that I don't recall ever dealing with significant numbers/issues involving EU nationals. They just aren't playing the system in the way that is claimed. Perhaps from elsewhere in the world there may be issues but not really the EU. 

 

@Strokes makes a point about wages. My gut feeling is that it's a false flag as wages went up significantly during the pre-crash years despite immigration opening up significantly. It is a fact backed up by government numbers that jobs created between 2010 and 2016 were pretty much all self employment or gig economy. I'm not sure that there is any analysis that shows the role of immigration here. I just don't see that it's anything other than the same well rehearsed right wing rhetoric with nothing to back it up.

[Strokes]

19 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

For what it's worth I feel similarly about immigration, but as far as Brexit is concerned I see it as a case of throwing out the baby with the bath water - the EU is about so much more than freedom of movement. And it's not even as if that's where the majority of unskilled immigrants come from - immigration from non-EU countries exceeds that of EU countries. We've always had the option of limiting that immigration but chose not to. 

I agree buce and I’ve not argued it as a sole reasoning and I sympathise with your viewpoint even if I do not share it. If we do a deal with the EU (softer brexit), I’d be rather we throw FOM into the mixer than ECJ for instance, especially as that would help resolve the Irish problem.