Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Milo]

3 minutes ago, toddybad said:

The issues you raise are false, frankly

I didn’t raise any issues, I said how I felt. 

 

And please don’t patronise me by infering that my views are somehow influenced by any national rag, of whatever colour 

 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Milo said:

I didn’t raise any issues, I said how I felt. 

 

And please don’t patronise me by infering that my views are somehow influenced by any national rag, of whatever colour 

 

It's not really patronising to suggest that you must have got those views from somewhere?

Given that the evidence doesn't back them up I'm just suggesting that many people (which may or may not include you) will have gotten them from 30 years of toxic right wing coverage.

Edited 17 March 2018 by Guest

[Milo]

2 minutes ago, toddybad said:

It's not really patronising to suggest that you must have got those views from somewhere?

All my own work, buddy 

[Strokes]

26 minutes ago, toddybad said:

And that, my friend, is the problem.

 

As with buce, I do have some issues around immigration - housing, services etc. So I'm not claiming there are no issues. But discussion of immigrating on the right doesn't tend to focus on those issues.

 

The issues you raise are false, frankly. Bit they've been highlighted so many times by the sun, mail, UKIP etc over such a long period (with nobody bothering to tell the other side of the story) that many have accepted then as facts without actually knowing that the stats are contrary to this perception. They're just not true.

 

I've worked in the welfare system investigating fraud. I can tell you that I don't recall ever dealing with significant numbers/issues involving EU nationals. They just aren't playing the system in the way that is claimed. Perhaps from elsewhere in the world there may be issues but not really the EU. 

 

@Strokes makes a point about wages. My gut feeling is that it's a false flag as wages went up significantly during the pre-crash years despite immigration opening up significantly. It is a fact backed up by government numbers that jobs created between 2010 and 2016 were pretty much all self employment or gig economy. I'm not sure that there is any analysis that shows the role of immigration here. I just don't see that it's anything other than the same well rehearsed right wing rhetoric with nothing to back it up.

Argue the points I raised not the points I didn’t. I never mentioned a timescale so why 2010-2016? 

Are we as a nation unproductive? And do we have very low unemployment? So that to me suggests productivity is being replaced by quantity no? Are employers showing signs of having too much power? Do they seem concerned that if an employee leaves they can’t be replaced easily? Do you think low paid employees are being invested in properly and have a feeling of progression and value?

All things you normally care about but again dismiss the ease of employment as a contributing factor of the conditions. You just blame right wing media for those people feeling marginalised. It wasn’t just White British nazi thugs that voted leave, people in those low paid jobs, labour voters also voted leave. As many conservatives voted remain. Why you blame right wing rhetoric for everything I don’t know.

Edited 17 March 2018 by Strokes

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Argue the points I raised not the points I didn’t. I never mentioned a timescale so why 2010-2016? 

Are we as a nation unproductive? And do we have very low unemployment? So that to me suggests productivity is being replaced by quantity no? Are employers showing signs of having too much power? Do they seem concerned that if an employee leaves they can’t be replaced easily? Do you think low paid employees are being invested in properly and have a feeling of progression and value?

All things you normally care about but again dismiss the ease of employment as a contributing factor of the conditions. You just blame right wing media for those people feeling marginalised. It wasn’t just White British nazi thugs that voted leave, people in those low paid jobs, labour voters also voted leave. As many conservatives voted remain. Why you blame right wing rhetoric for everything I don’t know.

I think it's hard to avoid the idea that 30 years of negative media coverage had clouded the debate. 

 

I'm not 100% saying there's nothing in what you say, just that I haven't seen anything that really backs it up fully and I tend to do some research. I'm not far off buce's position really, there are pros and cons but none of the cons are bad enough to warrant Brexit.

[Rogstanley]

Required reading before anyone should feel qualified to comment on the immigration vs wages debate, imo:

 

https://fullfact.org/immigration/immigration-and-jobs-labour-market-effects-immigration/

 

It shows that immigration has a negligible impact and in fact might even increase wages.

 

There are the anecdotal tales of EU skilled and semi-skilled workers coming in and undercutting everyone else, but for every tale like that there's a tale like this, which states that electricians are now earning more than £150k per year:

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4874400/amp/Electricians-earning-156-000-year.html

 

Considering the inconsistency of the above i think all you can do is look at the overall picture as born out by the official statistics, and they show that wages boomed during the labour years when immigration was high, but have suffered an unprecedented and continuing eight year collapse under this Tory government while immigration is still high. Clearly immigration is not a determining factor, so what is?

[Strokes]

53 minutes ago, toddybad said:

I think it's hard to avoid the idea that 30 years of negative media coverage had clouded the debate. 

 

I'm not 100% saying there's nothing in what you say, just that I haven't seen anything that really backs it up fully and I tend to do some research. I'm not far off buce's position really, there are pros and cons but none of the cons are bad enough to warrant Brexit.

And that’s where we will have to agree to disagree Tod.

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

Required reading before anyone should feel qualified to comment on the immigration vs wages debate, imo:

 

https://fullfact.org/immigration/immigration-and-jobs-labour-market-effects-immigration/

 

It shows that immigration has a negligible impact and in fact might even increase wages.

 

There are the anecdotal tales of EU skilled and semi-skilled workers coming in and undercutting everyone else, but for every tale like that there's a tale like this, which states that electricians are now earning more than £150k per year:

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4874400/amp/Electricians-earning-156-000-year.html

 

Considering the inconsistency of the above i think all you can do is look at the overall picture as born out by the official statistics, and they show that wages boomed during the labour years when immigration was high, but have suffered an unprecedented and continuing eight year collapse under this Tory government while immigration is still high. Clearly immigration is not a determining factor, so what is?

It's almost as if cutting investment in the public sector, which spends huge amounts within the private sector on paper, construction, cleaners, chemicals, pens, cups, lighting, uniforms and pretty much everything else that isn't wages, would have some sort of negative effect on private sector employment, wages and profits?

[fuchsntf]

12 hours ago, toddybad said:

Schools aren't allowed to require parental contributions but, in practice, can no longer survive without them. It's absolutely ridiculous that we've reached a point where the nhs can't even get people in.off the ambulances, councils are going under and schools can't even open 5 days a week. These aren't services at the edges of the public sector, these are smack bang on the middle of government services. And they've been starved of cash to a point that is heinous. Absolutely heinous. I want, just for once, one of our right wingers to admit that this has gotten out of hand, it just isn't right. 

I can say we differ on some Points,through this thread,then on some finding myself hanging neutral.

On this,I totally agree. What have WE come to,If the govt,any govt and the local council cant Free finds,

or have any permanent Financial Base for Schooling,with guarranteed quality.

Plus a Basic medical and health Care for all of its electorate/Peoples.

Whats the use of being one of the top richest nations,If you cant even Care neither the

working-class,nor even Middle-class Potential,in health or education.

 

I dont particular agree with the modern socialist Party, nor Corbyns way of leadership.

But He has been right,on trying to Keep a creditable Opposition.The Media,and the modern

approach of using scare-tactics,or making Individual Politicians to be traitors,or worse from

Both sides of the House,is truelly poor rhetoric,debate and inconsequential for any  Potential govt.

 

Boris Johnson,is  truelly an embarrassment,his outages,comments since He took up the 

Foreign-secretary-office....has not only been incompetent,but embarrasing for expectations

of this Office....but I dont Care...Its how people of the UK are being given a service,on the

Home Front.

Any positive Brexit effect,wont be felt or Seen by the next 2 Generations at least.....but

Taxes/finances being Seen to be used over the "English" counties for education/health and Care,

is for  the NOW!!! . We are supposedly richer at anytime in our History,and all Parties are denying

Not Just Higher quality,but the basics in these 2 simple,obvious,entitled Services to its Peoples.

The Irish and Scottish,education needs,might have their ups and Downs,but local priorities,and

Translation tend to be a mite Superior,to their English Cousins.

 

The Socialist might cock up some things in their tenure,If elected ,but the Wclass..and Mclass

Schooling,No Matter what, will get the needed finances,and Funds. No Matter the costs...

And its that,where the  Peoples of the UK, get Instant Improvement and a certain Balanced

guarrantee. I was a remainer,but Brexit is the will of the electorate,now ITS the electorate

who are being underminded,where the govt seems to be failing on the all Important Home Front.

This Russian issue,is diverting the Peoples thoughts and priorities away from the 

Poor Homeland internal politics.

 

 

 

[Webbo]

51 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

Required reading before anyone should feel qualified to comment on the immigration vs wages debate, imo:

 

https://fullfact.org/immigration/immigration-and-jobs-labour-market-effects-immigration/

 

It shows that immigration has a negligible impact and in fact might even increase wages.

 

There are the anecdotal tales of EU skilled and semi-skilled workers coming in and undercutting everyone else, but for every tale like that there's a tale like this, which states that electricians are now earning more than £150k per year:

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4874400/amp/Electricians-earning-156-000-year.html

 

Considering the inconsistency of the above i think all you can do is look at the overall picture as born out by the official statistics, and they show that wages boomed during the labour years when immigration was high, but have suffered an unprecedented and continuing eight year collapse under this Tory government while immigration is still high. Clearly immigration is not a determining factor, so what is?

Well the population has grown by around 4 million since 2010, so does that mean wages have risen?

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Well the population has grown by around 4 million since 2010, so does that mean wages have risen?

 

1 hour ago, Rogstanley said:

Considering the inconsistency of the above i think all you can do is look at the overall picture as born out by the official statistics, and they show that wages boomed during the labour years when immigration was high, but have suffered an unprecedented and continuing eight year collapse under this Tory government while immigration is still high. Clearly immigration is not a determining factor, so what is?

 

[Webbo]

3 minutes ago, toddybad said:

 

 

so it's obvious that immigration doesn't increase wages.

 

Wages boomed during the Labour years because

a) We were in a worldwide boom.

b) Labour added 900,000 to the public payroll and gave them big wages rises every year, which is also the reason for the current austerity.

 

It's also noticeable that since immigration has started to fall and employers are claiming it's harder to recruit staff that wages and productivity are increasing. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Webbo said:

so it's obvious that immigration doesn't increase wages.

 

Wages boomed during the Labour years because

a) We were in a worldwide boom.

b) Labour added 900,000 to the public payroll and gave them big wages rises every year, which is also the reason for the current austerity.

 

It's also noticeable that since immigration has started to fall and employers are claiming it's harder to recruit staff that wages and productivity are increasing. 

Public sector workers are not the reason for austerity. The reason for austerity is a belief that a small government is a good thing. The wreckage of the pubic sector would suggest that isn't true.

 

I can't even be bothered with the rest. Unlike everybody else you won't even begin to have a reasonable dialogue about tory failings so I won't waste my time.

[Webbo]

Just now, toddybad said:

Public sector workers are not the reason for austerity. The reason for austerity is a belief that a small government is a good thing. The wreckage of the pubic sector would suggest that isn't true.

 

I can't even be bothered with the rest. Unlike everybody else you won't even begin to have a reasonable dialogue about tory failings so I won't waste my time.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/jan/05/uk-productivity-jumps-at-fastest-rate-for-six-years

Quote

 

The productivity of British workers has increased at the fastest rate in more than six years, handing the government a rare boost in correcting one of the biggest problems facing the UK economy.

Labour productivity, or economic output per hour worked, grew by 0.9% in the three months to September 2017, the Office for National Statistics said. Economists said the jump came thanks to stronger growth in factory output, weaker jobs growth and the UK economy generating broadly the same amount of output for fewer hours worked.

Philip Shaw, chief economist at City bank Investec, said falling numbers of people entering the workforce and fewer hours worked were also key reasons for the gains. When fewer people work fewer hours but economic output holds steady, efficiency levels naturally rise, he said.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/dec/28/uk-economy-boosted-wage-growth-rising-output-adzuna-cbi-surveys

Quote

 

The British economy has received a double boost from reports showing signs of modest wage growth and accelerating output from businesses.

According to a study by the jobs search engine Adzuna, the average salary for vacancies advertised online in November was 1.2% higher than the same month a year before – the first annual increase recorded by the website since June 2015. Meanwhile, a survey by the business group the CBI found firms reporting a rise in economic output. 

 

Perhaps you can explain how I'm being unreasonable?

 

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, Webbo said:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/jan/05/uk-productivity-jumps-at-fastest-rate-for-six-years

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/dec/28/uk-economy-boosted-wage-growth-rising-output-adzuna-cbi-surveys

Perhaps you can explain how I'm being unreasonable?

 

The increase at the moment is due to people working harder though, not because of any increase in business investment. it's unclear how far productivity gains can go without either increasing investment or manpower.

[Webbo]

2 minutes ago, toddybad said:

The increase at the moment is due to people working harder though, not because of any increase in business investment. it's unclear how far productivity gains can go without either increasing investment or manpower.

Quote

Productivity is an economic measure of output per unit of input. Inputs include labor and capital, while output is typically measured in revenues and other gross domestic product (GDP) components such as business inventories.

Productivity is measured per unit, in this case per worker so increasing manpower won't necessarily increase productivity. While there was an endless supply of cheap labour there was no incentive to invest in machinery etc to improve productivity.

 

[Strokes]

If an employer can demonstrate that they have tried to recruit from home nations and is investing in staff development, I see no reason why they shouldn’t be allowed to recruite from abroad and sponsor a visa application.

What is wrong with setting a standard? How does that demonise foreigners? We are not the only nation in the EU to be concerned by FOM.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Strokes said:

If an employer can demonstrate that they have tried to recruit from home nations and is investing in staff development, I see no reason why they shouldn’t be allowed to recruite from abroad and sponsor a visa application.

What is wrong with setting a standard? How does that demonise foreigners? We are not the only nation in the EU to be concerned by FOM.

But we can't do this in isolation. If you could cut immigration and everything else was hunky dory you wouldn't have an issue. The issue is needing to leave the single market to do it. The price isn't worth paying for all the economic reasons we've been over thousands of times. 

 

We've seen before - prior to the financial crisis - that we can have immigration and see social and economic growth. So reducing immigration isn't the answer to solving our problems now.

 

The answer lies within economic policy. 

[fuchsntf]

Surveys-analyse-statements,from Experts,Specialists,and would be uni-prognose Workshops,

around anything Financial ,earnings-growth and variables,were incompetently projected

In the 80s,90s and early 2000s as now.

I also Seen and worked in the Financial Centers around Europe,Seen self-Gratifying Reports,

Delibrately created false financial analyse,with No Opposition,where politics and businesses

Rode over decades a wave of false Short peaks,follows by false promised,and deceit.

I would suggest all plebs on here including myself...should Not try and Use any of These

Expert Statements,for self-Gratifying Arguments...Experts and surveys on Financial Terms,

Have a problem History of 40+yrs of incompetent ,information,Reporting,and Translation

of fact. The Banking-organisation,and Stock-Exchange on high Levels are still dishing Out

BS and deceitful information/surveys.

Our West Financial Leaders,are no better than the despots,we so despise from the View

from our own humble perspectives of the world.

 

 

 

 

 

[Strokes]

1 minute ago, toddybad said:

But we can't do this in isolation. If you could cut immigration and everything else was hunky dory you wouldn't have an issue. The issue is needing to leave the single market to do it. The price isn't worth paying for all the economic reasons we've been over thousands of times. 

 

We've seen before - prior to the financial crisis - that we can have immigration and see social and economic growth. So reducing immigration isn't the answer to solving our problems now.

 

The answer lies within economic policy. 

Like I’ve said before though, I don’t think the economic impact will be anywhere near the severity you do and there is no way of knowing nobody is unbiased. I think it’s very worth it.

Our sway in the EU was nothing, they haven’t shown they wish to keep us as members and it’s time cease and reverse the transfer of powers. If they had taken our concerns on board and agreed to give Cameron a favourable deal to come home with, we wouldn’t be here. The union is only going one way and I have no desire to be a part of that ideology in the future. Like I said to buce, I understand your concerns but I don’t share them. The end does justify the means.

[leicsmac]

7 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Like I’ve said before though, I don’t think the economic impact will be anywhere near the severity you do and there is no way of knowing nobody is unbiased. I think it’s very worth it.

Our sway in the EU was nothing, they haven’t shown they wish to keep us as members and it’s time cease and reverse the transfer of powers. If they had taken our concerns on board and agreed to give Cameron a favourable deal to come home with, we wouldn’t be here. The union is only going one way and I have no desire to be a part of that ideology in the future. Like I said to buce, I understand your concerns but I don’t share them. The end does justify the means.

2

I guess that depends on your point of view.

 

If the EU does indeed fragment and becomes disparate nation-states again...what then?

[Buce]

10 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Like I’ve said before though, I don’t think the economic impact will be anywhere near the severity you do and there is no way of knowing nobody is unbiased. I think it’s very worth it.

Our sway in the EU was nothing, they haven’t shown they wish to keep us as members and it’s time cease and reverse the transfer of powers. If they had taken our concerns on board and agreed to give Cameron a favourable deal to come home with, we wouldn’t be here. The union is only going one way and I have no desire to be a part of that ideology in the future. Like I said to buce, I understand your concerns but I don’t share them. The end does justify the means.

 

You are far too reasonable to be a Tory, Strokes.

[Strokes]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

I guess that depends on your point of view.

 

If the EU does indeed fragment and becomes disparate nation-states again...what then?

It’s what we essentially are still now, disparate. We just have to surrender to the power of our overlords. We don’t get on now anymore than ever really.

[Rogstanley]

4 minutes ago, Strokes said:

It’s what we essentially are still now, disparate. We just have to surrender to the power of our overlords. We don’t get on now anymore than ever really.

I suspect the hundreds of thousands of people who died brutal deaths fighting wars on these lands might view the decades of peace we have now enjoyed with a little less complacency.

[Webbo]

9 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I guess that depends on your point of view.

 

If the EU does indeed fragment and becomes disparate nation-states again...what then?

What happened when the British/French/Spanish/Portuguese empires broke up or the Soviet bloc? Is the world a worse place because of that?