Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Rogstanley]

19 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Like I’ve said before though, I don’t think the economic impact will be anywhere near the severity you do and there is no way of knowing nobody is unbiased. I think it’s very worth it.

Our sway in the EU was nothing, they haven’t shown they wish to keep us as members and it’s time cease and reverse the transfer of powers. If they had taken our concerns on board and agreed to give Cameron a favourable deal to come home with, we wouldn’t be here. The union is only going one way and I have no desire to be a part of that ideology in the future. Like I said to buce, I understand your concerns but I don’t share them. The end does justify the means.

You expected the EU to beg for us to stay? 

 

Is your wanting to leave just bitterness then? Because you can't bring yourself to admit you're from a bang average country that isn't particularly important in the modern world?

[Webbo]

1 minute ago, Rogstanley said:

You expected the EU to beg for us to stay? 

 

Is your wanting to leave just bitterness then? Because you can't bring yourself to admit you're from a bang average country that isn't particularly important in the modern world?

You're far too unreasonable to be a tory, Moose.

[leicsmac]

13 minutes ago, Strokes said:

It’s what we essentially are still now, disparate. We just have to surrender to the power of our overlords. We don’t get on now anymore than ever really.

The argument could well be made that NATO was and is responsible for making sure there was no Russian incursion into Europe (or at least more than there was), but I might posit that the EU has at least helped the powers of Europe stop fighting amongst themselves, considering that up until the Cold War they spent practically all of history doing nothing but.

 

6 minutes ago, Webbo said:

What happened when the British/French/Spanish/Portuguese empires broke up or the Soviet bloc? Is the world a worse place because of that?

A hegemony run from one nation state and a union of separate nation states with (roughly) equal political footing are rather different entities, though I suppose those on the Leave side might argue that the EU was hegemonical under command of <insert name here>?

 

Edit: My point is that the more disparate and isolated nation states appear to be from each other, the greater chance of misunderstandings that lead to a great amount of trouble.

Edited 17 March 2018 by leicsmac

[Vardinio'sCat]

8 hours ago, Milo said:

Hmmm...

 

Lack of investment and management, agreed. 

 

If you cast your mind back, Brexit was fought, and voted for, predominantly on immigration and the objection to paying vast sums of money into the corrup swollen slug that is the EU. 

 

Surely limiting the the amount of people that don’t pay into the system from using public services, and not handing over vast sums of money in times of austerity is a sensible idea, no?

 

World didn’t end and the country hasn’t collapsed as promised (not merely suggested, absolutely promised, remember) by the remainers. 

 

But If in doubt, blame Brexit!

 

 

Depends which remainers you talked to, claiming they all said the same thing is historical revisionism, imho, although many on both sides will do that when it suits.

 

My understanding is that the immigrant population was  a pretty good deal for the rest of us, unless you were a plumber or a builder, given they were generally young and fit.

 

I was blaming Brexit, to some extent, on austerity, because traditionally public services have expanded to match the population, and was paid for by the increased tax take that came from extra people paying in. That didn't happen after the recession, despite the fact those extra public services would have required more investment and workers, which would have a stimulatory multiplier effect at a time when we badly needed growth.

 

Anyway, we are as divided on the subjects of both Brexit and austerity as ever. One day, when both are over, we will be able to look back.

 

And argue some more... 

[Webbo]

9 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

The argument could well be made that NATO was and is responsible for making sure there was no Russian incursion into Europe (or at least more than there was), but I might posit that the EU has at least helped the powers of Europe stop fighting amongst themselves, considering that up until the Cold War they spent practically all of history doing nothing but.

 

A hegemony run from one nation state and a union of separate nation states with (roughly) equal political footing are rather different entities, though I suppose those on the Leave side might argue that the EU was hegemonical under command of <insert name here>?

 

Edit: My point is that the more disparate and isolated nation states appear to be from each other, the greater chance of misunderstandings that lead to a great amount of trouble.

If you look at the old Yugoslavia, forcing nations into a fake union doesn't lead to peace either.

[leicsmac]

4 minutes ago, Webbo said:

If you look at the old Yugoslavia, forcing nations into a fake union doesn't lead to peace either.

Fair point.

 

Guess you have to at least try and weigh up which option ends up with the least blood on the floor long-term (for me that's still from collaboration and union rather than separatism, but I can't back that up with numbers right now). Seriously, how sad is that?

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Webbo said:

If you look at the old Yugoslavia, forcing nations into a fake union doesn't lead to peace either.

But it's worked for the EU hasn't it?

Perhaps if we'd not had one leg in and one out for so long we could have moulded it from the inside. The reason France and Germany hold such sway is that they are huge economies at the centre of Europe. It should have been us. Instead we were a huge economy that was wishy washy about the whole thing. I'm hugely disappointed that we'll lose the freedom to live and work overseas. Our people are far too insular. There's a whole continent to explore with better weather and better food. But no, we want to close the borders and go back to ham, egg and chips.

[Vardinio'sCat]

 

6 hours ago, Milo said:

Firstly, I think May is a much of a twat as Corbyn. 

 

The migration issue is more of a issue of how much people pay into the system for how long. 

 

I’ve been paying in to the pot via tax/NI for 30 years - by their very nature, nobody who comes into this country from a different one has. 

 

If the balance of ins/outs is skewed, then the pot depreciates while the demand increases. 

 

Its not politics, it’s common sense. 

Many east europeans have gone home before they get to the taking out stage though.

 

I have read that if we had moved over to a German style contributary system we could have still aligned with EU rules and stopped the arrive and claim possibilities (although I think that the use of that tactic has been oversold, even if I don't doubt it was happening).

 

Now I'm not saying it would be simple, but maybe we could have addressed some of the concerns which drove Brexit without going the whole hog.

 

I don't know many people who never saw the wisdom of the single market (although obviously many thought the price was too high), which was said to be one of Thatchers proudest achievements, and one of the few things I will give her credit for.

[Strokes]

25 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

I suspect the hundreds of thousands of people who died brutal deaths fighting wars on these lands might view the decades of peace we have now enjoyed with a little less complacency.

Can dead people hold views?

[Webbo]

1 minute ago, toddybad said:

But it's worked for the EU hasn't it?

Perhaps if we'd not had one leg in and one out for so long we could have moulded it from the inside. The reason France and Germany hold such sway is that they are huge economies at the centre of Europe. It should have been us. Instead we were a huge economy that was wishy washy about the whole thing. I'm hugely disappointed that we'll lose the freedom to live and work overseas. Our people are far too insular. There's a whole continent to explore with better weather and better food. But no, we want to close the borders and go back to ham, egg and chips.

So far, up to a point. If you look at the rise of extremist parties across mainland Europe it obvious that huge swathes of the population of the continent aren't happy with the status quo. Nobody is saying that war is likely any time soon but tensions are rising. Who knows what the situation will be like in 10 or 20 years time?

[Strokes]

24 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

You expected the EU to beg for us to stay? 

 

Is your wanting to leave just bitterness then? Because you can't bring yourself to admit you're from a bang average country that isn't particularly important in the modern world?

I didn’t expect them too no, I knew nothing would stop the ideology but I think they should’ve if they wanted me to vote remain.

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

Can dead people hold views?

That's true enough.

 

'Stand amongst the ashes of millions of dead souls, and ask the ghosts if honour, or glory, or nation matters. The silence is your answer.' (paraphrased)

 

 

1 minute ago, Webbo said:

So far, up to a point. If you look at the rise of extremist parties across mainland Europe it obvious that huge swathes of the population of the continent aren't happy with the status quo. Nobody is saying that war is likely any time soon but tensions are rising. Who knows what the situation will be like in 10 or 20 years time?

Again, it might be posited that though there is indeed dissatisfaction with the status quo, separatism will end up accelerating that tension rather than disarm it. It's a pretty well-trodden historical narrative, after all. 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Webbo said:

So far, up to a point. If you look at the rise of extremist parties across mainland Europe it obvious that huge swathes of the population of the continent aren't happy with the status quo. Nobody is saying that war is likely any time soon but tensions are rising. Who knows what the situation will be like in 10 or 20 years time?

But that's because the world had years of economic struggle. People generally move rightward then. See 1930s Europe. Brexit is part of that. The irony is that in Britain it's led to the rise of socialism as Britain was already a pretty rightwing economy.

 

And there's less chance of conflict between nations already discussing EU issues at supranational level.

Edited 17 March 2018 by Guest

[Strokes]

17 minutes ago, toddybad said:

But it's worked for the EU hasn't it?

Perhaps if we'd not had one leg in and one out for so long we could have moulded it from the inside. The reason France and Germany hold such sway is that they are huge economies at the centre of Europe. It should have been us. Instead we were a huge economy that was wishy washy about the whole thing. I'm hugely disappointed that we'll lose the freedom to live and work overseas. Our people are far too insular. There's a whole continent to explore with better weather and better food. But no, we want to close the borders and go back to ham, egg and chips.

Do you not think you will be able to get a visa to work in the EU then? Unless you’ve been a very naughty boy I doubt it would be difficult.

[Vardinio'sCat]

3 hours ago, Strokes said:

Argue the points I raised not the points I didn’t. I never mentioned a timescale so why 2010-2016? 

Are we as a nation unproductive? And do we have very low unemployment? So that to me suggests productivity is being replaced by quantity no? Are employers showing signs of having too much power? Do they seem concerned that if an employee leaves they can’t be replaced easily? Do you think low paid employees are being invested in properly and have a feeling of progression and value?

All things you normally care about but again dismiss the ease of employment as a contributing factor of the conditions. You just blame right wing media for those people feeling marginalised. It wasn’t just White British nazi thugs that voted leave, people in those low paid jobs, labour voters also voted leave. As many conservatives voted remain. Why you blame right wing rhetoric for everything I don’t know.

 

Some good points there dude.  When I was a kid car wash machines were common, but not any more. I would highlight the weakness of the unions in this country being a factor, as well as the endless stream of cheap labour that has been encouraged by govts of both sides. A stream that (at least from within the EU) would, for me, start to fall over time. I wish someone had said that to us before the referendum really. The remain side was so bad at making the argument it deserved to lose.

 

I wouldn't like to see us going back to some of the old union practices of the past, but I have always felt that the remnants of the class system has been a problem in this country. Why is it there is often union representation at board level in the best companies in Europe, but not here? Poorly trained management from a more entitled and less meritocratic structure than elsewhere, and tribalism from below leading to an adversarial attitude to management, has to be a factor. Despite what Blair said, we are not all middle class now.

 

Many of our best firms are run by foreign companies, and I think that is partly because there are no (class derived) ghosts of the past.

 

Your point suggesting it is not all about right wing rhetoric in the press driving this, is a valid one, imho.

[Strokes]

2 minutes ago, Vardinio'sCat said:

 

Some good points there dude.  When I was a kid car wash machines were common, but not any more. I would highlight the weakness of the unions in this country being a factor, as well as the endless stream of cheap labour that has been encouraged by govts of both sides. A stream that (at least from within the EU) would, for me, start to fall over time. I wish someone had said that to us before the referendum really. The remain side was so bad at making the argument it deserved to lose.

 

I wouldn't like to see us going back to some of the old union practices of the past, but I have always felt that the remnants of the class system has been a problem in this country. Why is it there is often union representation at board level in the best companies in Europe, but not here? Poorly trained management from a more entitled and less meritocratic structure than elsewhere, and tribalism from below leading to an adversarial attitude to management, has to be a factor. Despite what Blair said, we are not all middle class now.

 

Many of our best firms are run by foreign companies, and I think that is partly because there are no (class derived) ghosts of the past.

 

Your point suggesting it is not all about right wing rhetoric in the press driving this, is a valid one, imho.

Absolutely and it might surprise you that I’m a firm believer in trade unions and I am a member of one (cwu), have been for 15 years and required representation before. The only time I’ve required help was at a big corporation taking the piss, I won’t name them obviously (cough Fujitsu telecoms) but they were worth all the money I’ve paid for that alone. I’d always recommend to everyone to join a union.

[Vardinio'sCat]

1 hour ago, Strokes said:

Like I’ve said before though, I don’t think the economic impact will be anywhere near the severity you do and there is no way of knowing nobody is unbiased. I think it’s very worth it.

Our sway in the EU was nothing, they haven’t shown they wish to keep us as members and it’s time cease and reverse the transfer of powers. If they had taken our concerns on board and agreed to give Cameron a favourable deal to come home with, we wouldn’t be here. The union is only going one way and I have no desire to be a part of that ideology in the future. Like I said to buce, I understand your concerns but I don’t share them. The end does justify the means.

 

I don't agree that our sway in the EU was nothing. I think that is a bit of a bendy bananas story.

 

We were very important in keeping the EU balance between the relatively statist approach of countries like the French, and the more mercantile North Europeans. I think the Germans are really quite gutted to see us go.

 

I do agree they should have given Cameron more, but he played to his eurosceptic gallery so much he was always going to struggle. Also, no one thought we were going to vote to leave, including Cameron. He would probably still be PM without that awful miscalculation. That is why I sometimes call him Camoron.

[Rogstanley]

38 minutes ago, Webbo said:

So far, up to a point. If you look at the rise of extremist parties across mainland Europe it obvious that huge swathes of the population of the continent aren't happy with the status quo. Nobody is saying that war is likely any time soon but tensions are rising. Who knows what the situation will be like in 10 or 20 years time?

Huge swathes LMAO 

 

There isn’t a single far right party in power anywhere in Europe mate. A handful of racist losers embarrassed that immigrants have done better than they have in their own country does not a huge swathe make.

[Vardinio'sCat]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

I guess that depends on your point of view.

 

If the EU does indeed fragment and becomes disparate nation-states again...what then?

 

Vlad would love that. Can you imagine what he would be thinking?

 

'Job done, lets break out the vodka'. 

[Rogstanley]

2 hours ago, Webbo said:

Well the population has grown by around 4 million since 2010, so does that mean wages have risen?

Like I said I think the fullfact article is required reading (and understanding which I gather might be the stumbling block here) so if you can’t be arsed to read it then I can’t be arsed discussing it with you.

 

Wages are falling, worst wage growth in the developed world, worst GDP growth in the G7, worst productivity in the developed world, worst infrastructure in the developed world, 40% of parents having to self-fund schools to keep them going, all while business profits are at record levels. This country has gone to the dogs under this utter shitfest of a government. History will judge these to be dark, dark days.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

Like I said I think the fullfact article is required reading (and understanding which I gather might be the stumbling block here) so if you can’t be arsed to read it then I can’t be arsed discussing it with you.

 

Wages are falling, worst wage growth in the developed world, worst GDP growth in the G7, worst productivity in the developed world, worst infrastructure in the developed world, 40% of parents having to self-fund schools to keep them going, all while business profits are at record levels. This country has gone to the dogs under this utter shitfest of a government. History will judge these to be dark, dark days.

Without a doubt this period for the uk will be talked about like the great depression in the US.

[Izzy]

1 minute ago, toddybad said:

Without a doubt this period for the uk will be talked about like the great depression in the US.

Will it fvck. Calm down dear...

[Countryfox]

1 minute ago, toddybad said:

Without a doubt this period for the uk will be talked about like the great depression in the US.

 

Doubt it.

[Vardinio'sCat]

1 hour ago, Webbo said:

What happened when the British/French/Spanish/Portuguese empires broke up or the Soviet bloc? Is the world a worse place because of that?

 

although we are pretty far into the realms of speculation, I would say the lessons of the 20th century European history are more relevant.

 

Comparing the EU to the USSR, or even a colonial empire, is the kind of thing that gives Brexiteers a bad name.

[Vardinio'sCat]

 

Some good back and forth on here today, it is very refreshing to find people with such a range of views not shouting at each other. P**ses all over Question Time.

 

Obviously, if someone mentions Corbyn, it all falls apart, but still...

 

Edited 17 March 2018 by Vardinio'sCat