Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Webbo]

29 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

Like I said I think the fullfact article is required reading (and understanding which I gather might be the stumbling block here) so if you can’t be arsed to read it then I can’t be arsed discussing it with you.

 

Wages are falling, worst wage growth in the developed world, worst GDP growth in the G7, worst productivity in the developed world, worst infrastructure in the developed world, 40% of parents having to self-fund schools to keep them going, all while business profits are at record levels. This country has gone to the dogs under this utter shitfest of a government. History will judge these to be dark, dark days.

Quote

 

In the period 1997-2005 when the UK experienced significant immigration of people coming for work, one major study finds that an increase in the number of immigrants corresponding to 1% of the UK-born working-age population resulted in an increase in average wages of 0.1 to 0.3%.

Another study, for the period 2000-2007, found that a 1% increase in the share of immigrants in the UK's working-age population conversely lowers the average wage by 0.3%.

These studies, which relate to different time periods, reach opposing conclusions but they agree that the effects of immigration on averages wages are relatively small.

It's important to distinguish between the effect of immigration on the average wage of all workers in the economy, and on the wages of different groups of workers. The effects of immigration on workers within specific wage ranges or in specific occupations are more significant. The studies find that immigration affects low-waged workers the most.

Research from University College London finds that an inflow of immigrants the size of 1% of the UK-born population leads to a 0.6% decline in the wages of the 5% lowest paid workers and to an increase in the wages of higher paid workers.

Similarly, another study focusing on wage effects at the occupational level during 1992 and 2006, found that, in the unskilled and semi-skilled service sector, a 1% rise in the share of immigrants reduced average wages in that occupation by 0.5%.

An updated version of this study, considering the period between 1992 and 2014, found similar results. This study found that a 1% rise in the share of immigrants reduced averages wages in unskilled and semi-skilled service sector by just under 0.2%.

These impacts were reviewed in two recent government studies by the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and by the Migration Advisory Committee, respectively.

 

So the majority of the reports say that it does reduce wages? We're arguing between the theories of your experts and facts that have actually occured and even your experts accept that it does affect wages. Seeing as a slight fall in wages is the only argument you've got, maybe you should be supporting Brexit?

[Carl the Llama]

9 minutes ago, Vardinio'sCat said:

 

Some good back and forth on here today, it is very refreshing to find people with such a range of views not shouting at each other. P**ses all over Question Time.

 

Obviously, if someone mentions Corbyn, it all falls apart, but still...

 

Interestingly one of my friends earlier brought up what a twat Corbyn was being about the Russia issue, specifically the way he'd declared that Russia probably didn't do it. In the ensuing conversation it became clear he hadn't actually witnessed evidence of Jeremy doing the bad thing he was talking about and he ended up agreeing that the media and talking heads had conned him into believing something that wasn't true (again though based on no better evidence than simply taking my word for it when I gave my interpretation of what I understood Jeremy to be saying).  People are fickle things.

Edited 17 March 2018 by Carl the Llama

[Rogstanley]

1 minute ago, Webbo said:

So the majority of the reports say that it does reduce wages? We're arguing between the theories of your experts and facts that have actually occured and even your experts accept that it does affect wages. Seeing as a slight fall in wages is the only argument you've got, maybe you should be supporting Brexit?

Oh my god I can’t be doing with this stupidity tonight. TTYL M8.

[Webbo]

Just now, Rogstanley said:

Oh my god I can’t be doing with this stupidity tonight. TTYL M8.

15-3?

[Vardinio'sCat]

10 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

Interestingly one of my friends earlier brought up what a twat Corbyn was being about the Russia issue, specifically the way he'd declared that Russia probably didn't do it. In the ensuing conversation it became clear he hadn't actually witnessed evidence of Jeremy doing the bad thing he was talking about and he ended up agreeing that the media and talking heads had conned him into believing something that wasn't true (again though based on no better evidence than simply taking my word for it when I gave my interpretation of what I understood Jeremy to be saying).  People are fickle things.

 

Yeah, did you see that Newsnight backdrop, quite telling really. Even the lefty Beeb is trolling him 

 

Anyway, we were all getting along fine, so maybe we could just leave it a few days. People do calm down over time, so hopefully we can revisit it when some of the media storm has abated.

Edited 17 March 2018 by Vardinio'sCat

[Webbo]

1 minute ago, Vardinio'sCat said:

 

Yeah, did you see that Newsnight backdrop, quite telling really. Even the lefty Beeb is trolling him 

 

Anyway, we were all getting along fine, so maybe we could just leave it a few days. People do calm down over time, so hopefully we can revisit when some of the media storm has abated.

Without wanting to start a big row, the lefties on here aren't shy about criticising the tories.

[Vardinio'sCat]

Just now, Webbo said:

Without wanting to start a big row, the lefties on here aren't shy about criticising the tories.

 

True enough, can't say anyone gets an easy ride, and Corbyn doesn't do himself any favours, at times. I myself would have preferred some of the more centre-left to grow some, rather than to have to pin my colours to someone who never really aspired to impress a wide range of the population, he just isn't used to taking the middle ground with him.

 

Anyway, I really wasn't trying to drag us back to that. I was just impressed with the level of debate today. Although we often disagree wildly, you can't say that any of us is only talking to our own side, and most of us can muster a strong defense of our positions, whether other posters like them or not.

[Carl the Llama]

4 minutes ago, Vardinio'sCat said:

 

Yeah, did you see that Newsnight backdrop, quite telling really. Even the lefty Beeb is trolling him 

 

Anyway, we were all getting along fine, so maybe we could just leave it a few days. People do calm down over time, so hopefully we can revisit it when some of the media storm has abated.

I did not, tbh the only reason I saw Corbyn's speech in parliament was because I happened to spot people's reactions in here at the time and wandered over to the BBC site thinking something outrageous had happened.  Generally I don't bother watching politics stuff.outside of election season, you can always rely on outrage merchants to guide you to the latest interesting developments (or lack thereof in this case).

[Webbo]

9 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

I did not, tbh the only reason I saw Corbyn's speech in parliament was because I happened to spot people's reactions in here at the time and wandered over to the BBC site thinking something outrageous had happened.  Generally I don't bother watching politics stuff.outside of election season, you can always rely on outrage merchants to guide you to the latest interesting developments (or lack thereof in this case).

Outrage merchants like the Guardian?  https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/14/the-guardian-view-on-theresa-may-and-russia-tackling-the-troll-state

[Carl the Llama]

3 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Outrage merchants like the Guardian?  https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/14/the-guardian-view-on-theresa-may-and-russia-tackling-the-troll-state

In a word, no.  I only ever visit the Guardian's site if it's linked to on here by others like you've just done.

[leicsmac]

2 hours ago, Rogstanley said:

Huge swathes LMAO 

 

There isn’t a single far right party in power anywhere in Europe mate. A handful of racist losers embarrassed that immigrants have done better than they have in their own country does not a huge swathe make.

That may be the case for now, but I would still be taking any rise in far right activity in Europe (and there is some) with the utmost seriousness. Avoid the mistakes of the past.

 

 

2 hours ago, Vardinio'sCat said:

 

Vlad would love that. Can you imagine what he would be thinking?

 

'Job done, lets break out the vodka'. 

 

Tbh NATO probably still does enough to curb any really bad Russian excesses...however more concerning for me is European nations carrying on in their finest tradition of trying to knock each other over the head with a club if the EU does come crashing down.

[fuchsntf]

1 hour ago, Carl the Llama said:

Interestingly one of my friends earlier brought up what a twat Corbyn was being about the Russia issue, specifically the way he'd declared that Russia probably didn't do it. In the ensuing conversation it became clear he hadn't actually witnessed evidence of Jeremy doing the bad thing he was talking about and he ended up agreeing that the media and talking heads had conned him into believing something that wasn't true (again though based on no better evidence than simply taking my word for it when I gave my interpretation of what I understood Jeremy to be saying).  People are fickle things.

Thats Not fickle,but pure Ignorance.

[ajthefox]

4 hours ago, Rogstanley said:

This country has gone to the dogs under this utter shitfest of a government. History will judge these to be dark, dark days.

 

3 hours ago, toddybad said:

Without a doubt this period for the uk will be talked about like the great depression in the US.

 

This thread never ceases to amaze me. 

[breadandcheese]

5 hours ago, Rogstanley said:

Huge swathes LMAO 

 

There isn’t a single far right party in power anywhere in Europe mate. A handful of racist losers embarrassed that immigrants have done better than they have in their own country does not a huge swathe make.

 

Austria

[Sampson]

3 hours ago, ajthefox said:

 

 

This thread never ceases to amaze me. 

Yeah seriously. This country has its problems atm for sure, but being alive in any Western country in the 21st century is basically hitting the absolute historical jackpot.

 

Unironically comparing it to the Great depression or calling these dark days in history is pretty hilarious.

 

Mind you there's plenty of people on the General board moaning about watching Leicester at the moment when we're watching the greatest side in the club's history and some if the greatest players ever to pull on the shirt so some people will always moan about what's wrong instead of appreciating the incredibly lucky position they're there to witness I guess.

[Guest]

Whether you're remain or leave, surely the idea that we cannot countenance delaying by a few months to get a deal in place is madness? To me JRM is one of the most dangerous MPs in parliament. And I'm seriously sick of him trotting out his"will of the people" rubbish

 

Call for delayed Brexit day and longer transition splits MPs

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/18/brexit-transition-period-plan-splits-mps-select-committee?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Sampson said:

Yeah seriously. This country has its problems atm for sure, but being alive in any Western country in the 21st century is basically hitting the absolute historical jackpot.

 

Unironically comparing it to the Great depression or calling these dark days in history is pretty hilarious.

 

Mind you there's plenty of people on the General board moaning about watching Leicester at the moment when we're watching the greatest side in the club's history and some if the greatest players ever to pull on the shirt so some people will always moan about what's wrong instead of appreciating the incredibly lucky position they're there to witness I guess.

It may depend which generation you're part of how the situation currently looks. If you can't get a decent job, have been forced into a huge amount of debt to study and have no prospect of home ownership things look decidedly less rosy. Add in the state of schools, the NHS, personal debt (which I'm not convinced has finished with us yet), council funding etc means the country is in a parlous state. 

[Buce]

36 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Whether you're remain or leave, surely the idea that we cannot countenance delaying by a few months to get a deal in place is madness? To me JRM is one of the most dangerous MPs in parliament. And I'm seriously sick of him trotting out his"will of the people" rubbish

 

Call for delayed Brexit day and longer transition splits MPs

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/18/brexit-transition-period-plan-splits-mps-select-committee?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

 

He’s the very definition of a Tory toff, and a complete anachronism. 

 

Minister for the 19th Century. 

[Rogstanley]

5 hours ago, Sampson said:

Yeah seriously. This country has its problems atm for sure, but being alive in any Western country in the 21st century is basically hitting the absolute historical jackpot.

 

Unironically comparing it to the Great depression or calling these dark days in history is pretty hilarious.

 

Mind you there's plenty of people on the General board moaning about watching Leicester at the moment when we're watching the greatest side in the club's history and some if the greatest players ever to pull on the shirt so some people will always moan about what's wrong instead of appreciating the incredibly lucky position they're there to witness I guess.

Eight years of falling wages. Worst wage growth in the developed world. Worst fall in living standards since the mid 19th century. Lowest GDP growth in the G7. Lowest productivity in the developed world. Worst infrastructure in the developed world. Parents having to self fund state schools. People can’t afford to have children. People can’t afford to buy a simple home. Isolating ourselves from our neighbours. Becoming more insular and hateful. Capitalism becoming a religion at just the wrong time.

 

If that doesn’t qualify as dark then I don’t know what does quite frankly. 

 

And don’t come back with “you should just sit back and accept it because at least you’re not a Jew in 1930’s Germany”. Peace and a reasonable level of safety are not things to be taken for granted but let’s not pretend that 21st century UK is the only place and time those things exist.

Edited 18 March 2018 by Rogstanley

[Izzy]

11 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

Eight years of falling wages. Worst wage growth in the developed world. Worst fall in living standards since the mid 19th century. Lowest GDP growth in the G7. Lowest productivity in the developed world. Worst infrastructure in the developed world. Parents having to self fund state schools. People can’t afford to have children. People can’t afford to buy a simple home. Isolating ourselves from our neighbours. Becoming more insular and hateful. Capitalism becoming a religion at just the wrong time.

 

If that doesn’t qualify as dark then I don’t know what does quite frankly. 

 

And don’t come back with “you should just sit back and accept it because at least you’re not a Jew in 1930’s Germany”. Peace and a reasonable level of safety are not things to be taken for granted but let’s not pretend that 21st century UK is the only place and time those things exist.

So much conjecture in there I don't know where to start..

[Rogstanley]

14 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

So much conjecture in there I don't know where to start..

The majority of it is actually based on official statistics.

[Strokes]

27 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

Eight years of falling wages. Worst wage growth in the developed world. Worst fall in living standards since the mid 19th century. Lowest GDP growth in the G7. Lowest productivity in the developed world. Worst infrastructure in the developed world. Parents having to self fund state schools. People can’t afford to have children. People can’t afford to buy a simple home. Isolating ourselves from our neighbours. Becoming more insular and hateful. Capitalism becoming a religion at just the wrong time.

 

If that doesn’t qualify as dark then I don’t know what does quite frankly. 

 

And don’t come back with “you should just sit back and accept it because at least you’re not a Jew in 1930’s Germany”. Peace and a reasonable level of safety are not things to be taken for granted but let’s not pretend that 21st century UK is the only place and time those things exist.

And the biggest worshippers are those that want to remain in the EU.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Strokes said:

And the biggest worshippers are those that want to remain in the EU.

No, it's the ones hoping to take us out amidst a bonfire of regulations. Like JRM.

[Strokes]

Just now, toddybad said:

No, it's the ones hoping to take us out amidst a bonfire of regulations. Like JRM.

How do you break away from capitalism as an EU member then?

[Izzy]

28 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

Eight years of falling wages. U.K. employment at a record high (depends if you're a glass half full or empty type I suppose)

Worst wage growth in the developed world. The Bank of England say it will pick up strongly by the end of the year

Worst fall in living standards since the mid 19th century. Living standards in this country are still paradise compared to most nations - we're very lucky

Lowest GDP growth in the G7. A poxy little shit tip of a country like ours in the top 7 largest advance economies in the world - incredible really

Lowest productivity in the developed world. New investment in apprenticeships and training

Worst infrastructure in the developed world. And some of the best infrastructure in the developed world (your glass half empty there again Rog)

Some Parents having to self fund state schools. 

Some People can’t afford to have children.

Some People can’t afford to buy a simple home. 

Isolating ourselves from our neighbours. Opinion, not fact

Becoming more insular and hateful. Opinion, not fact

Capitalism becoming a religion at just the wrong time. Opinion, not fact

 

I could also give you a list of 10-20 reasons to be cheerful but I'd be wasting my time...