Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Rogstanley]

17 minutes ago, Strokes said:

And the biggest worshippers are those that want to remain in the EU.

No they aren’t. Regulated capitalism as a system through which quality of life is improved is fine. My comment referred to the apparently growing number of people to whom increasing big business profits is the aim even if it means making life worse for ordinary people. 

Edited 18 March 2018 by Rogstanley

[Rogstanley]

1 minute ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

I could also give you a list of 10-20 reasons to be cheerful but I'd be wasting my time...

And you called me out for conjecture!

 

Literally all of that is just your spin Izzy, and most of it is nonsense. 

[Izzy]

1 minute ago, Rogstanley said:

No they aren’t. Regulated capitalism as a system through which quality of life is improved is fine. My comment referred to the apparently growing number of people to whom growing big business profit is the aim even if it means making life worse for ordinary people. 

Where do you get that from?

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Strokes said:

How do you break away from capitalism as an EU member then?

Nobody has suggested we should.

[Strokes]

Just now, toddybad said:

Nobody has suggested we should.

So why bring up capitalism, if we all believe in it then? 

If you’ve a problem with deregulation say that, blaming it on capitalism to look like you are hipster is a bit strange imo. 

[Strokes]

8 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

No they aren’t. Regulated capitalism as a system through which quality of life is improved is fine. My comment referred to the apparently growing number of people to whom increasing big business profits is the aim even if it means making life worse for ordinary people. 

Both systems are capitalism and both return profits to businesses and CEOs, don’t pretend voting remain makes you care about the worse off in society more, because it doesn’t.

 

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, Strokes said:

So why bring up capitalism, if we all believe in it then? 

If you’ve a problem with deregulation say that, blaming it on capitalism to look like you are hipster is a bit strange imo. 

Which quote are you ascribing to me?

 

I want to see regulation and a move towards a more society first capitalist framework rather than a neolibeal capitalism.

[Rogstanley]

25 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

Where do you get that from?

Why else would a government with such a diabolical record keep getting voted in? You see it on here all the time, a lot want low tax on business to ensure they make maximum profits, a lot want to get rid of regulations protecting workers to ensure businesses make maximum profits and so on. 

[Strokes]

1 minute ago, toddybad said:

Which quote are you ascribing to me?

 

I want to see regulation and a move towards a more society first capitalist framework rather than a neolibeal capitalism.

No it wasn’t you that wrote it but you are defending it and have said similar in the past.

I would rather see @Sharpe's Fox vision of brexit than yours, the fact that the pair of you vote for the same party but share polar opposite views, is another sign of the crazy political world we live in. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

No it wasn’t you that wrote it but you are defending it and have said similar in the past.

I would rather see @Sharpe's Fox vision of brexit than yours, the fact that the pair of you vote for the same party but share polar opposite views, is another sign of the crazy political world we live in. 

What's his vision?

The reality is I'm not as far left as you probably think though I do share a hope to see many of the changes that the current labour party want to make. That doesn't mean I don't think they are going too far at times. Out of the two transit options available I simply can't for for the one that has cost lives - literally - through an ideological hatred of government services.

[Rogstanley]

1 hour ago, Strokes said:

So why bring up capitalism, if we all believe in it then? 

If you’ve a problem with deregulation say that, blaming it on capitalism to look like you are hipster is a bit strange imo. 

If you’re referring to my comment on capitalism becoming a religion then the important bit is that it is becoming a religion. I’ve got no problem with regulated capitalism being used as a tool to improve people’s lives in a society where improving people’s lives is the priority.

 

The problem is we now have growing numbers of people who are happy to see living standards decline as long as businesses are making more profit. Those people have gone beyond wanting to use capitalism as a mere tool to improve our lives. Now they think the aim of society should be to make way for capitalism; that we should all make sacrifices to ensure capitalism’s success; that the success of capitalism is the goal and not the means. 

 

In history it is usually only Gods that can inspire those kind of thoughts, so you can see that for some capitalism has taken the place of God, hence it has become like a religion and that isn’t a road we want to go down.

Edited 18 March 2018 by Rogstanley

[Izzy]

8 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

If you’re referring to my comment on capitalism becoming a religion then the important bit is that it is becoming a religion. I’ve got no problem with regulated capitalism being used as a tool to improve people’s lives in a society where improving people’s lives is the priority.

 

The problem is we now have growing numbers of people who are happy to see living standards decline as long as businesses are making more profit. Those people have gone beyond wanting to use capitalism as a mere tool to improve our lives. Now they think the aim of society should be to make way for capitalism; that we should all make sacrifices to ensure capitalism’s success; that the success of capitalism is the goal and not the means. 

 

In history it is usually only Gods that can inspire those kind of thoughts, so you can see that for some capitalism has taken the place of God, hence it has become like a religion and that isn’t a road we want to go down.

You keep mentioning this but where has anybody actually said they're 'happy' to see living standards decline in favour of business making more profit? It might be how you feel or interpret the situation but where has anybody actually said they're happy about it? 

 

And who are 'they' and 'those people' anyway? 

[Rogstanley]

2 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

You keep mentioning this but where has anybody actually said they're 'happy' to see living standards decline in favour of business making more profit? It might be how you feel or interpret the situation but where has anybody actually said they're happy about it? 

 

And who are 'they' and 'those people' anyway? 

 

1 hour ago, Rogstanley said:

Why else would a government with such a diabolical record keep getting voted in? You see it on here all the time, a lot want low tax on business to ensure they make maximum profits, a lot want to get rid of regulations protecting workers to ensure businesses make maximum profits and so on. 

 

Same question, same answer.

[Izzy]

1 hour ago, Rogstanley said:

Why else would a government with such a diabolical record keep getting voted in? You see it on here all the time, a lot want low tax on business to ensure they make maximum profits, a lot want to get rid of regulations protecting workers to ensure businesses make maximum profits and so on. 

Because the electorate don't believe the alternative would do any better...

[Webbo]

1 hour ago, Rogstanley said:

Why else would a government with such a diabolical record keep getting voted in? You see it on here all the time, a lot want low tax on business to ensure they make maximum profits, a lot want to get rid of regulations protecting workers to ensure businesses make maximum profits and so on. 

So you've never voted Tory?

[Rogstanley]

13 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

Because the electorate don't believe the alternative would do any better...

Do any better at what?

 

Most people when praising the Tories praise them for saving themselves money, for GDP growth, for increasing business profits and so on. They point out that the Tories do a better job at facilitating capitalism and ignore that it has come at the cost of decreasing wages, declining living standards, poorly funded schools etc.

Edited 18 March 2018 by Rogstanley

[Izzy]

11 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

Do any better at what?

 

Most people when praising the Tories praise them for saving themselves money, for GDP growth, for increasing business profits and so on. They point out that the Tories do a better job at facilitating capitalism and ignore that it has come at the cost of decreasing wages, declining living standards, poorly funded schools etc.

Running the country.

 

If Labour were such a good alternative they'd have been voted in last time - but they weren't

[Rogstanley]

2 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

Running the country.

 

If Labour were such a good alternative they'd have been voted in last time - but they weren't

What criteria are you using to measure how good a government is at running the country?

[Izzy]

1 minute ago, Rogstanley said:

What criteria are you using to measure how good a government is at running the country?

The only measure that ultimately matters on how good the government is at running the country, is whether or not they get elected back in next time.

 

Even with things being as dire as you keep stating and even with bitchwitch May as PM, Labour still couldn't get a majority last time.

 

The only way you'll get what you want for this country is if Labour win the next election and current polls have it about even (incredible really seeing as how shit you say everything is)

 

The reason Labour didn't win is that 'most people' (as you frequently quote) don't trust them to do a better job than the Tories.

[Rogstanley]

12 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

The only measure that ultimately matters on how good the government is at running the country, is whether or not they get elected back in next time.

 

Even with things being as dire as you keep stating and even with bitchwitch May as PM, Labour still couldn't get a majority last time.

 

The only way you'll get what you want for this country is if Labour win the next election and current polls have it about even (incredible really seeing as how shit you say everything is)

 

The reason Labour didn't win is that 'most people' (as you frequently quote) don't trust them to do a better job than the Tories.

You can't define what a good job is to you personally?

 

Sorry but I find that to be an obvious cop out. 

Edited 18 March 2018 by Rogstanley

[Izzy]

Just now, Rogstanley said:

You can't define what a good job is? 

 

Sorry but I find that to be an obvious cop out. 

It's not my job to define what a good job is. If I think they're doing a good job I'll continue to vote them in. If I don't, I wont.

 

You can't answer Webbo's question if you've voted Tory before?

 

Sorry but I find that to be an obvious cop out.

[Buce]

23 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

Running the country.

 

If Labour were such a good alternative they'd have been voted in last time - but they weren't

 

That's too simplistic, bro.

 

You only have to look at the recent reporting of the Russian shit to see how the Tory press misrepresents everything Corbyn says and does. And you're kidding yourself if you swallow the argument that nobody believes what they read in the papers - on the contrary, a whole swath of the electorate base their voting intentions precisely on that. You, personally, are probably better off under a Tory government (on purely personal economic terms, so am I) but the vast majority of ordinary people who vote Tory are not. Persuading those people to vote Tory is the most successful con trick ever, and it's the Tory press that is responsible for it.

[Rogstanley]

10 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

It's not my job to define what a good job is. If I think they're doing a good job I'll continue to vote them in. If I don't, I wont.

 

You can't answer Webbo's question if you've voted Tory before?

 

Sorry but I find that to be an obvious cop out.

Yes if you think they’re doing a good job you’ll vote for them as will everybody else.

 

The point I’m trying to get at is that increasing numbers of people define “good job” with reference to how well the government facilitates capitalism rather than with reference to wages, living standards etc.

 

You must have some sort of criteria by which you personally decide whether or not they’re doing a good job and I’m just asking what that criteria consists of. It’s not a trick question.

 

I can’t see the relevance of Webbo’s question to this discussion. 

[Izzy]

5 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

That's too simplistic, bro.

 

You only have to look at the recent reporting of the Russian shit to see how the Tory press misrepresents everything Corbyn says and does. And you're kidding yourself if you swallow the argument that nobody believes what they read in the papers - on the contrary, a whole swath of the electorate base their voting intentions precisely on that. You, personally, are probably better off under a Tory government (on purely personal economic terms, so am I) but the vast majority of ordinary people who vote Tory are not. Persuading those people to vote Tory is the most successful con trick ever, and it's the Tory press that is responsible for it.

That may or may not be true mate but I don't read the papers so can't really comment.

 

And yes, I do think I'm probably better off under a Tory government so I'm bound to vote for them. 

 

I'm not sure the vast majority of people are us gullible or impressionable as you think though. They watch the news and make an opinion on politicians and policies based on their emotional response. It's difficult to define 'trust' as its a feeling but people often make decisions based on their gut feel - rightly or wrongly.

 

And I'm sure the Labour press also do their best to misrepresent the Tories so it works both ways. 

[Izzy]

5 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

Yes if you think they’re doing a good job you’ll vote for them as will everybody else.

 

The point I’m trying to get at is that increasing numbers of people define “good job” with reference to how well the government facilitates capitalism rather than with reference to wages, living standards etc.

 

You must have some sort of criteria by which you personally decide whether or not they’re doing a good job and I’m just asking what that criteria consists of. It’s not a trick question.

 

I can’t see the relevance of Webbo’s question to this discussion. 

My criteria is very simple as I'm a very simple soul.

 

Am I happy with the amount of tax I'm currently paying? Yes

Am I happy with my kids education? Yes

Am I happy with my local services? Yes

Am I happy with the UK's place in the world in general? Yes

Do I trust in the Tories ability to maintain these factors better than Labour? Yes

 

Also, most of my work comes from the big ugly corporates that you hate. The more profit they make, the more likely they'll have a training budget to bring people like me in.

 

These are all very personal reasons but that's what you asked for. 

 

P.S. I'm not surprised that you won't answer Webbo's question just like you won't answer Strokes' questions about your previous persona's on here. Whether they're relevant or not, it's difficult to take you seriously as a poster when you won't be honest about who you really are (which is a shame really)