Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

Can agree and sign up to our own deals during the transition period. 

 

Honestly didn't expect the eu to agree to that. 

It doesn't surprise me. 

I'm not sure what Brexiters will.make of the deals we get though. 

All trade deals require alignment of regulation and a form of arbitration that sits above both parties.

Quite how we achieve things I don't know.

The EU has more trade deals than any other bloc or single country. It's power means everybody else falls into line with it's regulations when dealing with it.

When we go it alone we will somehow need to align with every country we deal with. How is that possible? We won't be in a position of strength with any big countries. The idea we can replicate or improve our deals is ridiculous.

[Webbo]

7 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Which were the best bits for you?

We can negotiate our trade deals, Gibraltar is included in the deal, there's no punishment clause anymore,a joint committee to make sure both sides act in good faith. Considering we were told we wouldn't get any deal it's not bad.

[Webbo]

1 minute ago, toddybad said:

It doesn't surprise me. 

I'm not sure what Brexiters will.make of the deals we get though. 

All trade deals require alignment of regulation and a form of arbitration that sits above both parties.

Quite how we achieve things I don't know.

The EU has more trade deals than any other bloc or single country. It's power means everybody else falls into line with it's regulations when dealing with it.

When we go it alone we will somehow need to align with every country we deal with. How is that possible? We won't be in a position of strength with any big countries. The idea we can replicate or improve our deals is ridiculous.

You recognise each others regulations as equivalent.

[Countryfox]

6 minutes ago, Donut said:

Its obvious that:

 

1) You put no thought into your vote

2) You were duped and voted on emotion somewhat similar to a radicalisation

3) You thought youd be better off and wont be

4) Now knowing you wont be better off, you try to claim that you knew this all along and it was a price worth paying for "taking back control" whatever that is

5) You wanted control over laws you couldnt name and you hadnt a clue about but were sure they ruined your life.

6) The fishing laws you were so desperate to change for some reason like every brexit voter arent changing.

7) We now have no influence over single market or customs union decisions when we previously did

8) Youve got no idea what we will sell more of and who we will sell it to when we are out of the single market, and cling onto the hope of some brilliant trade deal with who knows who

9) Youre blindly waiting for some sort of miracle to make your life better when youve shot yourself and everyone else in the foot

10) Theres absolutely no point trying to discuss anything with someone who has a head made of granite and is oblivious to just about every experts opinions and reports.

 

Im not replying back to you so quote me or dont quote me im not bothered. Theres nothing to discuss, end of story.

 

Wow ..   you sound very clever ...   obviously much cleverer than someone with a head made of granite !!   

 

I cant understand why granite headed people were allowed to vote ...   surely only people of your huge intellect should have voted. 

[Webbo]

9 minutes ago, Donut said:

Its obvious that:

 

1) You put no thought into your vote

2) You were duped and voted on emotion somewhat similar to a radicalisation

3) You thought youd be better off and wont be

4) Now knowing you wont be better off, you try to claim that you knew this all along and it was a price worth paying for "taking back control" whatever that is

5) You wanted control over laws you couldnt name and you hadnt a clue about but were sure they ruined your life.

6) The fishing laws you were so desperate to change for some reason like every brexit voter arent changing.

7) We now have no influence over single market or customs union decisions when we previously did

8) Youve got no idea what we will sell more of and who we will sell it to when we are out of the single market, and cling onto the hope of some brilliant trade deal with who knows who

9) Youre blindly waiting for some sort of miracle to make your life better when youve shot yourself and everyone else in the foot

10) Theres absolutely no point trying to discuss anything with someone who has a head made of granite and is oblivious to just about every experts opinions and reports.

 

Im not replying back to you so quote me or dont quote me im not bothered. Theres nothing to discuss, end of story.

The fishing thing is just during the transition phase, you did realise that didn't you?

[Buce]

18 minutes ago, Donut said:

Its obvious that:

 

1) You put no thought into your vote

2) You were duped and voted on emotion somewhat similar to a radicalisation

3) You thought youd be better off and wont be

4) Now knowing you wont be better off, you try to claim that you knew this all along and it was a price worth paying for "taking back control" whatever that is

5) You wanted control over laws you couldnt name and you hadnt a clue about but were sure they ruined your life.

6) The fishing laws you were so desperate to change for some reason like every brexit voter arent changing.

7) We now have no influence over single market or customs union decisions when we previously did

8) Youve got no idea what we will sell more of and who we will sell it to when we are out of the single market, and cling onto the hope of some brilliant trade deal with who knows who

9) Youre blindly waiting for some sort of miracle to make your life better when youve shot yourself and everyone else in the foot

10) Theres absolutely no point trying to discuss anything with someone who has a head made of granite and is oblivious to just about every experts opinions and reports.

 

Im not replying back to you so quote me or dont quote me im not bothered. Theres nothing to discuss, end of story.

 

 

The new version of Rinced.

 

Do-nutted.

Edited 19 March 2018 by Buce

[lifted*fox]

Am I still getting new carpets? 

[Guest MattP]

49 minutes ago, toddybad said:

yep it was always obvious Brexiteers would all be happy with this type of period, what with the "no deal is better than a bad deal" and calling MPs traitors and quislings for daring to want some parliamentary scrutiny.

 

I'm sure the final deal will be all brexiteers dreamt it to be also.

Inno has already mentioned, freedom of trade during the transition wasn't something I expected so delighted with that, didn't expect them to cave in on that. Pretty sure you said we couldn't achieve this. 

 

Some bizarre posts in response to the subject today, leave voters being pragmatic, realising and accepting a negotiation will need compromise and remain voters getting upset about it, almost like they can't handle the fact most of us might actually be flexible and reasonable rather than the swivel eyed, frothing caricatures they have implemented us to be in their own minds.

Edited 19 March 2018 by MattP

[Milo]

39 minutes ago, Donut said:

I’m not replying back to you so quote me or dont quote me im not bothered. Theres nothing to discuss, end of story.

Top debating skills 

[Wymsey]

20 minutes ago, lifted*fox said:

Am I still getting new carpets? 

The business you were getting it from has ceased to exist, after a customer complaint..

[Webbo]

2 minutes ago, MattP said:

Inno has already mentioned, freedom of trade during the transition wasn't something I expected so delighted with that, didn't expect them to cave in on that. Pretty sure you said we couldn't achieve this. 

 

Some bizarre posts in response to the subject today, leave voters being pragmatic, realising and accepting a negotiation will need compromise and remain voters getting upset about it, almost like they can't handle the fact most of us might actually be flexible and reasonable rather than the swivel eyed, frothing caricatures they have implemented us to be in their own minds.

One minute they accuse the govt of pursuing an ideological , rightwing, hard Brexit and then when they compromise they accuse them of caving in. Whatever deal we got we'd have had the same reaction. It's why this thread is such a bore now.

[Donut]

4 minutes ago, Milo said:

Top debating skills 

Whats to debate?

 

Everyone will be worse off. End of story.

[lifted*fox]

6 minutes ago, MattP said:

Some bizarre posts in response to the subject today, leave voters being pragmatic, realising and accepting a negotiation will need compromise and remain voters getting upset about it, almost like they can't handle the fact most of us might actually be flexible and reasonable rather than the swivel eyed, frothing caricatures they have implemented us to be in their own minds.

 

or you're all being 'reasonable' about it because it's weak af and you want to save face. 

 

not my opinion of course, just another potential angle. 

[Milo]

3 minutes ago, Donut said:

Whats to debate?

 

Everyone will be worse off. End of story.

And this is a fact because...?

[Countryfox]

4 minutes ago, Milo said:

And this is a fact because...?

 

Cus he says so, of course ...    granite head !!    

[Strokes]

3 hours ago, toddybad said:

Well on our way to being a vassall state then. Good use of your vote Brexiteers.

Hooray

[Wymsey]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-43463496

[Strokes]

2 hours ago, toddybad said:

It doesn't surprise me. 

I'm not sure what Brexiters will.make of the deals we get though. 

All trade deals require alignment of regulation and a form of arbitration that sits above both parties.

Quite how we achieve things I don't know.

The EU has more trade deals than any other bloc or single country. It's power means everybody else falls into line with it's regulations when dealing with it.

When we go it alone we will somehow need to align with every country we deal with. How is that possible? We won't be in a position of strength with any big countries. The idea we can replicate or improve our deals is ridiculous.

You only need to align trade you plan sell and buy with each country, unlike with single market membership that covers internal trade too.

[Strokes]

So anyone wanting to work in the EU visa free, you have just under three years to get your act together. 

[Buce]

 

Theresa May under fire over Brexit transition deal

Senior Tories criticise concessions to Brussels on issues ranging from immigration to fisheries

 

Theresa May faced a storm of protest over a transition deal struck with Brussels after conceding a series of her high-profile Brexit demands and agreeing to the “back stop” plan of keeping Northern Ireland under EU law to avoid a hard border with the Republic of Ireland.

 

After an intense few days of talks, the Brexit secretary, David Davis, lauded a provisional agreement on the terms of a 21-month period, ending on 31 December 2020, as a “significant” moment, giving businesses and citizens the reassurance they had demanded.

Under a joint withdrawal deal published on Monday, of which 75% is agreed, the UK will retain the benefits of the single market and customs union for “near enough to the two years we asked for”, Davis said, albeit while losing its role in any decision-making institutions.

Whitehall officials noted that Liam Fox, the secretary for international trade, would be allowed to sign new trade deals to come into force in 2021 and the UK could choose to be part the EU’s foreign policy and defence initiatives.

Legal certainty for UK businesses will only be in place once the agreement is signed and ratified – likely in 2019 – but the markets reacted well to the news, with sterling climbing to its highest level in three weeks.

Yet as details emerged of the extent of the British government’s acquiescence to the EU’s terms, on issues ranging from immigration to fisheries, senior Tory figures, including the former leader Iain Duncan Smith, turned their fire on Downing Street.

He told the BBC: “There does seem to be a real concern … It appears that at least through the implementation period nothing will change and I think that will be a concern and the government clearly has to deal with that because a lot of MPs are very uneasy about that right now.”

The failure of the prime minister to get agreement on her very public and insistent demand that Britain could treat EU citizens arriving during the period differently to those already in the country was a cause of particular embarrassment for May.

 

“British citizens and European citizens of the 27 who arrive during the transition period will receive the same rights and guarantees as those who arrived before the day of Brexit,” the EU’s chief negotiator, Michel Barnier, told reporters during a joint press conference with Davis in Brussels.

News that the UK had also rolled over on the demand of Michael Gove, the environment secretary, for a renegotiation of the fishing quotas for the last year of the transition period was angrily denounced by Tories in Scotland.

The leader of the Scottish Conservatives, Ruth Davidson, said: “That we now have to wait until 2020 to assume full control is an undoubted disappointment. Having spoken to fishing leaders today, I know they are deeply frustrated with this outcome.”

Douglas Ross, the Tory MP for Moray, said: “There is no spinning this as a good outcome. It would be easier to get someone to drink a pint of sick than try to sell this as a success.”

Scottish MPs concerned about fisheries were due to meet the prime minister for crisis talks on Tuesday.

The former Ukip leader Nigel Farage called for the prime minister’s removal from office, describing her as “Theresa the appeaser”.

In relation to Northern Ireland, Barnier told reporters the UK had agreed that the withdrawal agreement would retain a default solution to avoid a hard border under which the north and south of the island of Ireland would remain in regulatory alignment.

After the publication of the last draft of the 53,000 word agreement, including that back stop, May had insisted that no British prime minister could sign up to a text that included a proposition that could “threaten the constitutional integrity of the UK by creating a customs and regulatory border down the Irish Sea”.

 

The EU and Ireland had insisted, in response, that the “back stop” option was simply the translation of an agreement struck in a joint report between the UK and the European commission in December. That report suggested that regulatory alignment would be necessary if either a future trade deal or a bespoke technological solution failed to offer the same advantage of avoiding a hard border.

With the issue threatening to stall agreement on the transition period, a deal had been struck, Barnier said, although more work needed to be done. “We agree today that the back stop solution must form part of the legal text of the withdrawal agreement,” he told reporters.

The UK insists that although it has accepted that a back stop will be included in the final withdrawal agreement, it has not accepted the current wording proposed by the EU.

Downing Street wants inclusion in the text of its promise to avoid the need for border checks between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK, something Brussels says is a strictly domestic issue.

In a sign of the UK’s need to placate the EU over the issue, the prime minister, however, sent a letter to the European council president, Donald Tusk, reiterating her commitment to the joint report.

Simon Coveney, the Irish foreign minister, said the UK’s proposals so far on avoiding a hard border would not be acceptable and he was pleased to have the “insurance policy” agreed in principle.

Although most Tory Brexiter backbenchers kept their responses muted, concerns were expressed.

 

Jacob Rees-Mogg, who chairs the European Research Group of backbenchers, called the transition agreement unsatisfactory and said it was “hard to see what points the government has won”.

He said ministers had given in on fishing rights, free movement and the “issue of sincere cooperation”, adding: “As one correspondent said, the government has rolled over without even having its tummy tickled.” But he called the progress “tolerable if the end state is a clean Brexit”.

Campaigners for Britons in Europe expressed concern about the draft withdrawal deal. Jane Golding, the chair of British in Europe, said the draft excluded any reference to their continued right to freedom of movement to enable cross-border commuting or provision of services in another country or to people in another country.

“As things stand, after Brexit, English cheddar will have more free movement

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/19/uk-and-eu-agree-terms-for-brexit-transition-deal

[Rogstanley]

Pressure on Liam Fox now then with him having promised to have 40 trade deals ready for signing on big brexit day.

 

Not surprised the EU gave up saying they would prevent us trying to do deals during the transition - there's literally nothing in it for them and they know it's impossible to get many good deals in such a short space of time anyway.

 

I suspect actually they just used it as a chip to get the things they wanted and Theresa has predictably fallen for it.

 

Tories celebrate this potential economic success hard despite previous claims that brexit "was never about the economy".

 

What was it about again? Ah yes, fishing quotas. Well the complete indifference shown from brexiters towards the fishing quota giveaway surely puts to bed the idea that any brexiters gave even half a shit about that issue.

 

And you can bet your life there's some foam fizzing away in the corner of many mouths due to the last-minute immigrant rights giveaway too.

 

All in all it appears that 'compromise' in these negotiations basically means May giving the EU everything they want. If Fox approaches trade deals with such reckless desperation then he's going to get eaten alive.

Edited 19 March 2018 by Rogstanley

[Webbo]

7 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

Pressure on Liam Fox now then with him having promised to have 40 trade deals ready for signing on big brexit day.

 

Not surprised the EU gave up saying they would prevent us trying to do deals during the transition - there's literally nothing in it for them and they know it's impossible to get many good deals in such a short space of time anyway.

 

I suspect actually they just used it as a chip to get the things they wanted and Theresa has predictably fallen for it.

 

Tories celebrate this potential economic success hard despite previous claims that brexit "was never about the economy".

 

What was it about again? Ah yes, fishing quotas. Well the complete indifference shown from brexiters towards the fishing quota giveaway surely puts to bed the idea that any brexiters gave even half a shit about that issue.

 

And you can bet your life there's some foam fizzing away in the corner of many mouths due to the last-minute immigrant rights giveaway too.

 

All in all it appears that 'compromise' in these negotiations basically means May giving the EU everything they want. If Fox approaches trade deals with such reckless desperation then he's going to get eaten alive.

Moose, it's the transition deal, it'll last 21 months. We'll have our trade deal with the EU and all the others on the day we leave. As a fellow tory you should be celebrating Theresa May's success.

[Strokes]

18 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

Pressure on Liam Fox now then with him having promised to have 40 trade deals ready for signing on big brexit day.

 

Not surprised the EU gave up saying they would prevent us trying to do deals during the transition - there's literally nothing in it for them and they know it's impossible to get many good deals in such a short space of time anyway.

 

I suspect actually they just used it as a chip to get the things they wanted and Theresa has predictably fallen for it.

 

Tories celebrate this potential economic success hard despite previous claims that brexit "was never about the economy".

 

What was it about again? Ah yes, fishing quotas. Well the complete indifference shown from brexiters towards the fishing quota giveaway surely puts to bed the idea that any brexiters gave even half a shit about that issue.

 

And you can bet your life there's some foam fizzing away in the corner of many mouths due to the last-minute immigrant rights giveaway too.

 

All in all it appears that 'compromise' in these negotiations basically means May giving the EU everything they want. If Fox approaches trade deals with such reckless desperation then he's going to get eaten alive.

Is it upsetting you that we are not bothered by the immigration thing like you claimed all along?

You are right about one thing though, Fox does have to deliver now.

[Rogstanley]

22 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Is it upsetting you that we are not bothered by the immigration thing like you claimed all along?

Immigration was one of the main reasons brexiters voted brexit.

[Strokes]

1 minute ago, Rogstanley said:

Immigration was one of the main reasons brexiters voted brexit.

Controlling immigration was but for most it wasn’t about immigrants. Which is why not many are foaming at the mouth.