Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Rogstanley]

3 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Controlling immigration was but for most it wasn’t about immigrants. Which is why not many are foaming at the mouth. 

I think it's more a case of once bitten twice shy don't you.

 

What's Farage had to say about it?

[Buce]

8 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

 

 

What's Farage had to say about it?

 

He’s dubbed her, Theresa the appeaser  

Edited 19 March 2018 by Buce

[Strokes]

9 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

I think it's more a case of once bitten twice shy don't you.

No, I think it’s more that not as many people are as racist as you think.

9 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

What's Farage had to say about it?

No idea, I’m not his shadow.

[Strokes]

12 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

I think it's more a case of once bitten twice shy don't you.

 

What's Farage had to say about it?

What have the majestic opposition had to say on the whole thing? Anything of note?

[DJ Barry Hammond]

 

If you’re wondering what to think about the ‘Brexit initial deal’ today, hardly any of the papers touch it on their front page - only the Telegraph with ‘fisherman betrayed’ which no doubt comes from the Gove wing of the Conservative party (assume his wife is still high up in the paper there).

 

Both the Mail and the Sun hardly carry this on the websites - it’s hidden away. The Mail hearald it as a ‘breakthrough’ but the wider report suggests they’re less than impressed with the deal. It actually reads as balanced reporting ´shock!’

 

Yet, the fact that both sides can point to a win in the deal should not be a surprise; that’s how the EU works and that’s how the final deal will work. But of course, it’s what we actually ‘win’ which will count.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

 

Oh and the deals ‘concession’ - not surprised at that, it’s an easy concession to make and could give the EU greater leverage further down the line on two counts;

 

1.) Struggle to secure favourable deals, we show a weaker hand

2.) WTO most favourable nation rules - we strike up a deal with an WTO member, we’d be obliged to offer at least the same to the EU.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, lifted*fox said:

Am I still getting new carpets? 

Once we've done a trade deal with the Turks. 

 

4 hours ago, MattP said:

Inno has already mentioned, freedom of trade during the transition wasn't something I expected so delighted with that, didn't expect them to cave in on that. Pretty sure you said we couldn't achieve this. 

 

Some bizarre posts in response to the subject today, leave voters being pragmatic, realising and accepting a negotiation will need compromise and remain voters getting upset about it, almost like they can't handle the fact most of us might actually be flexible and reasonable rather than the swivel eyed, frothing caricatures they have implemented us to be in their own minds.

Mainly just taking the piss out of people like JRM. Only for some reason you take it seriously. You might recall that every time remainer s call for sensible measures they are called traitors in the right wing press. When concessions are made by tory command suddenly it's to be expected in a negotiation. You, Strokes and webbo have spent months telling us how you want the hardest Brexit possible. No deal is better than a bad deal etc etc. It's just quite amusing watching you all scuttling about changing positions dependent on whatever David Davis has signed us up to last.

[Guest]

“Je suis très heureux,” Michel Barnier began. It soon became clear why he was so heureux as the text of the draft transitional agreement appeared on a screen behind him during his Brussels press conference with David Davis. Large chunks of it were highlighted in green. These were Theresa May’s red lines. Green was now the new red.

The British prime minister had been right in insisting that large sections of the Brexit deal would be non-negotiable. She just hadn’t made it clear that it would be the EU that was refusing to negotiate. So on almost every point that Britain had said it wouldn’t be giving in, it had given in.

Barnier made a token effort to sound as if he wasn’t crowing that British objections to money, trade negotiations, the European court of justice, fishing rights and the length of the transitional deal had all been casually brushed aside. But when you are as heureux as he is then it’s hard to keep a straight visage.

Not that everything was done and dusted, the EU chief negotiator continued. Mais non! There was still 25% of the draft agreement that wasn’t green. These were the bits that were in yellow and white. The yellow areas were the red lines that the British government couldn’t quite yet bring itself to turn green but would probably do so in the next couple of weeks.

The white areas were slightly more problematic. These were the red lines – principally over Northern Ireland – the British government knew it would eventually have to turn green, but as yet had no clear idea of how to do so without every Brexiter in the Tory party having a complete meltdown about being sold out.

But this wasn’t his problem, because in the absence of the white lines turning green then the backstop was to keep Northern Ireland in the customs union and the single market. In other words, business comme d’habitude.

Edited 19 March 2018 by Guest

[Strokes]

15 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Once we've done a trade deal with the Turks. 

 

Mainly just taking the piss out of people like JRM. Only for some reason you take it seriously. You might recall that every time remainer s call for sensible measures they are called traitors in the right wing press. When concessions are made by tory command suddenly it's to be expected in a negotiation. You, Strokes and webbo have spent months telling us how you want the hardest Brexit possible. No deal is better than a bad deal etc etc. It's just quite amusing watching you all scuttling about changing positions dependent on whatever David Davis has signed us up to last.

What position have I changed then, in detail please? No deal is better than a bad deal.

Edited 19 March 2018 by Strokes

[Rogstanley]

7 hours ago, Strokes said:

What have the majestic opposition had to say on the whole thing? Anything of note?

No idea, I'm not their shadow.

[Rogstanley]

7 hours ago, Strokes said:

What position have I changed then, in detail please? No deal is better than a bad deal.

Come off it

 

You lot have spent the last six months trying to convince us brexit was about things like fishing quotas and was never about the economy.

 

Now May has caved in on fishing quotas you don’t care about fishing quotas and now there’s some potentially slightly promising economic news you’ll all over it like a rash.

 

Flippy floppy, flop flip flop. Isn’t it time to just admit you dropped a bollock? 

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Strokes said:

What have the majestic opposition had to say on the whole thing? Anything of note?

That this deal could have been reached months ago. Hard to argue, isn't it?

[Strokes]

18 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

Come off it

 

You lot have spent the last six months trying to convince us brexit was about things like fishing quotas and was never about the economy.

 

Now May has caved in on fishing quotas you don’t care about fishing quotas and now there’s some potentially slightly promising economic news you’ll all over it like a rash.

 

Flippy floppy, flop flip flop. Isn’t it time to just admit you dropped a bollock? 

 

12 minutes ago, toddybad said:

That this deal could have been reached months ago. Hard to argue, isn't it?

And where exactly have I said I’m happy with the deal? I’m just not upset with it (I was worried that no brexit was gaining serious traction), we’ve got more than I expected but less than I wanted, it’s a bit disappointing but also I’m very relieved. Show me where I’ve said anything else.

I’ve no idea if it’s hard to argue or not toddy, there isn’t a precedent for this before for us to gauge. It’s funny though, that you guys see brexit as so important and are besotted by labour and Corbyn yet they don’t really care, in fact they seem mostly on the leave side. 

So all I can say is, thanks to all Labour supporters. I really doubt we could have even got anything resembling the brexit we hoped for, without your backing. The party have been magnificent in helping us get this over the line. Cheers to you.

 

[Strokes]

So will New Year’s Day be Independence Day or will it be March 29th?

[Guest MattP]

8 hours ago, toddybad said:

Once we've done a trade deal with the Turks. 

 

Mainly just taking the piss out of people like JRM. Only for some reason you take it seriously. You might recall that every time remainer s call for sensible measures they are called traitors in the right wing press. When concessions are made by tory command suddenly it's to be expected in a negotiation. You, Strokes and webbo have spent months telling us how you want the hardest Brexit possible. No deal is better than a bad deal etc etc. It's just quite amusing watching you all scuttling about changing positions dependent on whatever David Davis has signed us up to last.

Not many facts in this post, Strokes is on record as wanting no deal, not sure where me or Webbo have said that, feel free (again) to provide evidence to back up your accusation.

 

I'm still exactly where I was, I want independent trade and no jurisdiction of the ECJ whilst outside of the single market and customs union, we are still.on course for that after transition. 

 

I haven't changed my position one bit Toddy.

[Guest MattP]

9 hours ago, Strokes said:

What have the majestic opposition had to say on the whole thing? Anything of note?

Basically Labour would have got everything the Tories did, but got everything better and anything extra you want Labour would have got. Even free trade as "a customs union" for Labour would have included that. Honest. They aren't lying and making this up because they know they'll never get found out.

 

Now they are going to end austerity and plough billions into public service, How you ask? Well its Bankers bonus tax, big pharma, Jews, big business, oligarchs tax, bankers, city of London tax, bonus, free. Russian houses, easy movement. Going to kick out the rich and tax them at the same time, big corporations, big tax, expelled. 

 

See. Fully costed. 

[Guest]

53 minutes ago, MattP said:

Not many facts in this post, Strokes is on record as wanting no deal, not sure where me or Webbo have said that, feel free (again) to provide evidence to back up your accusation.

 

I'm still exactly where I was, I want independent trade and no jurisdiction of the ECJ whilst outside of the single market and customs union, we are still.on course for that after transition. 

 

I haven't changed my position one bit Toddy.

I'm sure the tory 'customs arrangement' will be a world away from the labour 'customs union'.

Edited 20 March 2018 by Guest

[Buce]

2 minutes ago, toddybad said:

I'm sure the tory 'customs arrangement' will be a world away from the labour 'customs union'.

 

Note how everyone is conveniently ignoring the Irish question too.

[Fox Ulike]

9 hours ago, toddybad said:

 

 

Mainly just taking the piss out of people like JRM. Only for some reason you take it seriously. You might recall that every time remainer s call for sensible measures they are called traitors in the right wing press. When concessions are made by tory command suddenly it's to be expected in a negotiation. You, Strokes and webbo have spent months telling us how you want the hardest Brexit possible. No deal is better than a bad deal etc etc. It's just quite amusing watching you all scuttling about changing positions dependent on whatever David Davis has signed us up to last.

 

I hope this is true:

 

Meanwhile Jacob Rees-Mogg, chair of the European Research Group, is planning to lead a protest of Brexit supporting MPs on Wednesday, who will board a boat and throw fish out as they pass by parliament. He said the aim of the action, which would involve a limited number of MPs because of a lack space, was to show their dissatisfaction about the fisheries element of the transition agreement.

 

I'm struggling to see how this deal could ever have been any different. It was always very obvious that we'd need to abide by all EU regulations/ECJ whilst in the transition period, but that we'd be able to negotiate the deals that would come into effect after the transition period ended. We voted to Leave, but we never voted when to Leave. So I don't really see a transition period as concessions.

 

May is having to master the art of the double-think. ON the one hand, she has got to be an appeaser. Not to the EU as Farage thinks - but to the "Red, white and Blue Brexit" mob who think Brexit is about having different coloured passports and fish as being British. But she also has to ensure that we take a sensible approach. At the moment I think she's just about achieving this. Yes she's a ditherer, but the irony might end up being that in an era of total uncertainty and risk, a ditherer might be the best person for the job right now.

[Guest MattP]

9 minutes ago, toddybad said:

I'm sure the tory 'customs arrangement' will be a world away from the labour 'customs union'.

Wouldn't it be fantastic if the opposition would actually tell us what they would aim for and what they would sacrifice to get it? Then we could go about making judgements on it.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Note how everyone is conveniently ignoring the Irish question too.

That's because we'll have to either have a split between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK, a hard border, or remain in the customs union. I predict the third only they'll change the name union to arrangement.they'll do it as late as possible so jrm doesn't have time to do anything about it. Mps will vote it through. MattP will claim it as a victory for Brexiteers.

[Guest MattP]

4 minutes ago, toddybad said:

That's because we'll have to either have a split between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK, a hard border, or remain in the customs union. I predict the third only they'll change the name union to arrangement.they'll do it as late as possible so jrm doesn't have time to do anything about it. Mps will vote it through. MattP will claim it as a victory for Brexiteers.

You actually got any evidence for me from where I've asked you where I've changed my opinion or is it just going to be cheap sniping instead?

[Buce]

4 minutes ago, toddybad said:

That's because we'll have to either have a split between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK, a hard border, or remain in the customs union. I predict the third only they'll change the name union to arrangement.they'll do it as late as possible so jrm doesn't have time to do anything about it. Mps will vote it through. MattP will claim it as a victory for Brexiteers.

 

I agree.

 

The DUP won't support the first option, while the second risks a return to violence and is probably unworkable anyway.

[Fox Ulike]

9 minutes ago, toddybad said:

That's because we'll have to either have a split between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK, a hard border, or remain in the customs union. I predict the third only they'll change the name union to arrangement.they'll do it as late as possible so jrm doesn't have time to do anything about it. Mps will vote it through. MattP will claim it as a victory for Brexiteers.

 

In 2021 we'll sign an agreement to join the Schengen Area. And all the Brexiteers will be crowing that it was never about freedom of movement it was always about the great English poets.  

[Buce]

35 minutes ago, Fox Ulike said:

 

In 2021 we'll sign an agreement to join the Schengen Area. And all the Brexiteers will be crowing that it was never about freedom of movement it was always about the great English poets.  

 

 

And taking back control of the shape of bananas.