Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Guest]

2 hours ago, MattP said:

Genuinely bemusing, before these negotiations it was widely held by all sides that a hard Brexit was leaving the single market and customs union, a soft Brexit was staying in them. Now some of the same people are telling is staying in the common fisheries policy is now a soft Brexit, it's laughable.

I've said consistently for months and months that it's tariff free access to the single market that defines the hardness or softness of Brexit for me. If we stay in a customs union, therefore having regulatory alignment and a tariff free deal, then that's at the soft end. 

It must be, the hard end was the threats to jump off the cliff edge and go with world trade tariffs which you were all quite up for.

Edited 20 March 2018 by Guest

[Beechey]

3 minutes ago, toddybad said:

This is a bit of a half truth in practice

 

http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2016/10/07/the-bank-of-england-is-not-independent/

 

... that's an opinion piece and has almost nothing to do with the setting of interest rates. This is much better

 

https://www.ft.com/content/388fae86-3184-11e7-9555-23ef563ecf9a

[Strokes]

5 minutes ago, toddybad said:

If trade deals were the most important thing we wouldn't be leaving the EU would we? Even the levee campaign admitted it didn't talk about trade because it couldn't win basing an argument on that.

I didn’t say it was the most important thing, why is it every time you’re wrong you make weird statements like this?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Beechey said:

... that's an opinion piece and has almost nothing to do with the setting of interest rates. This is much better

 

https://www.ft.com/content/388fae86-3184-11e7-9555-23ef563ecf9a

You didn't say just interest rates, you said managing inflation. Whilst that is indeed their role, all governments since independence have effectively taken political decisions which the bank has had to go with. QE is supposed to be up to the bank yet gordon Brown and the g8 decided QE would be happening. It would have been impossible for the bank not to then do so.

[Beechey]

4 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

Years of underinvestment by the Tory government leaves Britain's roads - already the worst in the developed world - in desperately poor, deteriorating and often downright dangerous condition.

 

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-43407167

Am I missing where in that article it states our roads are the worst in the developed world?

[Guest MattP]

4 minutes ago, toddybad said:

I've said consistently for months and months that it's tariff free access to the single market that defines the hardness or softness of Brexit for me. If we stay in a customs union, therefore having regulatory alignment and a tariff free deal, then that's at the soft end. 

It must be, the hard end was the threats to jump off the cliff edge and go with world trade tariffs which you were all quite up for.

I've always said we should try and get a deal but if we can't get a decent one we shouldn't fear walking away.

 

Stop making stuff up.

[Beechey]

3 minutes ago, toddybad said:

You didn't say just interest rates, you said managing inflation. Whilst that is indeed their role, all governments since independence have effectively taken political decisions which the bank has had to go with. QE is supposed to be up to the bank yet gordon Brown and the g8 decided QE would be happening. It would have been impossible for the bank not to then do so.

Let's not pretend QE was a government vehicle to manage inflation. The inflation effect of QE was an after effect, completely expected but unimportant at the time. You're citing John Redwood as an example of why the BoE doesn't set the interest rates, I don't get it. You think the government wants interest rates to rise? They almost certainly don't.

Edited 20 March 2018 by Beechey

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

I didn’t say it was the most important thing, why is it every time you’re wrong you make weird statements like this?

Ah but I'm not wrong strokes. 

 

In fact, I've been right all along.

 

For months I've been saying TM would fudge a soft Brexit. In fact, I've gone further and said that if jrm and his cronies attempt to bring down TM over it and take over the tory party then we'll also see a change of government. 

 

Matty spent weeks after last year's election telling us that it was clear everybody voted for a hard Brexit and soft Brexit was dead and he was delighted. He was also deluded.

 

You've been more sensible with your pronouncements, I'll admit. But you've also made clear that you'd happily walk away with no deal at all rather than accept ecj jurisdiction etc. We haven't got down to the final deal yet but I can't see how you would feel confident about getting the sort of next you hoped for given the piss poor negotiations of the government.

 

It's not gloating to say this. Neither of us will get what we want. I don't want Brexit at all. You want super hard Brexit. We'll end up with some sort of fudge. I'm not sure there's anything for anybody to be happy about there. I just find it amusing when people like webbo pretend they're happy with our current course.

[Rogstanley]

5 minutes ago, Beechey said:

Am I missing where in that article it states our roads are the worst in the developed world?

No you're not. That was reported separately. 

[Beechey]

Just now, Rogstanley said:

No you're not. That was reported separately. 

Ah, any clue where I can find it? Wondering if the recent weather has made the already crap roads even worse.

[Guest MattP]

2 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Ah but I'm not wrong strokes. 

 

In fact, I've been right all along.

 

For months I've been saying TM would fudge a soft Brexit. In fact, I've gone further and said that if jrm and his cronies attempt to bring down TM over it and take over the tory party then we'll also see a change of government. 

 

Matty spent weeks after last year's election telling us that it was clear everybody voted for a hard Brexit and soft Brexit was dead and he was delighted. He was also deluded.

 

You've been more sensible with your pronouncements, I'll admit. But you've also made clear that you'd happily walk away with no deal at all rather than accept ecj jurisdiction etc. We haven't got down to the final deal yet but I can't see how you would feel confident about getting the sort of next you hoped for given the piss poor negotiations of the government.

 

It's not gloating to say this. Neither of us will get what we want. I don't want Brexit at all. You want super hard Brexit. We'll end up with some sort of fudge. I'm not sure there's anything for anybody to be happy about there. I just find it amusing when people like webbo pretend they're happy with our current course.

 

You've completely lost your marbles.

[Rogstanley]

1 minute ago, Beechey said:

Ah, any clue where I can find it? Wondering if the recent weather has made the already crap roads even worse.

This is the original report which was then reported all over the place

 

http://inrix.com/press-releases/scorecard-2017-uk/

[Wymsey]

Quite wish @Alf Bentley came back to contribute on this thread.

[Guest MattP]

1 minute ago, Wymeswold fox said:

Quite wish @Alf Bentley came back to contribute on this thread.

Seconded, like me he's trying (and clearly succeeding better) to spend a little less time on here at the minute.

[Sharpe's Fox]

Whats the point of having a blue water navy if you won't use it to protect your fishing land. Any ****ing boat with "Santa" at the start if the name gets shelled no exceptions 

[Guest Foxin_mad]

19 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

It has been "only a matter of time" for about seven years. Meanwhile wages have kept plummeting and business profits have increased.

 

How much more of this Tory failure will you accept before you start to question whether or not they really have any interest in increasing wages?

 

No I don't. It's a fact that economic forecasts on the impact of brexit are negative but I don't keep posting them no.

Record employment, growth, falling inflation. Seems better than massive job losses, high taxation, inflation, debt, money printing and bail outs. 

 

Apparently economic forecasts can be wrong, they can never be fact unless proven, which being as it hasn't happened yet they aren't! 

 

17 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

Years of underinvestment by the Tory government leaves Britain's roads - already the worst in the developed world - in desperately poor, deteriorating and often downright dangerous condition.

 

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-43407167

Yes because the roads were perfect under Labour and would be absolutely great in a bankrupt nation. Please can you evidence that our roads are 'the worst in the developed world'. 

 

Just to quantify if your roads are the busiest in Europe which UK roads are, then of course there will be more wear and tear.

 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/features/britain-busiest-most-congested-roads-3158325

 

Perhaps we should be charging the European/Overseas drivers who often happily use our road networks for free, commit minor offences and disappear without being correctly charged/reprimanded. 

 

We also have the 2nd safest roads in Europe.

 

We are also in the midst of a very cold winter known to damage roads but lets not let the facts get in the way of a good ol ANTI TORY SCUM whinge. 

[Guest]

 

19 minutes ago, Beechey said:

Let's not pretend QE was a government vehicle to manage inflation. The inflation effect of QE was an after effect, completely expected but unimportant at the time. You're citing John Redwood as an example of why the BoE doesn't set the interest rates, I don't get it. You think the government wants interest rates to rise? They almost certainly don't.

At no point have I said bank of England don't set the interest rates.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

9 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

This is the original report which was then reported all over the place

 

http://inrix.com/press-releases/scorecard-2017-uk/

I am not seeing a part that says we have the worst roads in the developed world?

 

It says we are congested, perhaps due to the uncontrolled unskilled mas immigration allowed under Labour! 

[Rogstanley]

4 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

Record employment, growth, falling inflation. Seems better than massive job losses, high taxation, inflation, debt, money printing and bail outs. 

 

Apparently economic forecasts can be wrong, they can never be fact unless proven, which being as it hasn't happened yet they aren't! 

 

Yes because the roads were perfect under Labour and would be absolutely great in a bankrupt nation. Please can you evidence that our roads are 'the worst in the developed world'. 

 

Just to quantify if your roads are the busiest in Europe which UK roads are, then of course there will be more wear and tear.

 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/features/britain-busiest-most-congested-roads-3158325

 

Perhaps we should be charging the European/Overseas drivers who often happily use our road networks for free, commit minor offences and disappear without being correctly charged/reprimanded. 

 

We also have the 2nd safest roads in Europe.

 

We are also in the midst of a very cold winter known to damage roads but lets not let the facts get in the way of a good ol ANTI TORY SCUM whinge. 

I'm simply commenting on that fact that wages have been falling for eight years - almost a whole generation. You clearly have no answer.

 

On roads, this Tory government has overseen them falling to a dangerous level of disrepair, presumably in the name of austerity. 

 

On congestion, the population density of the UK is not a great deal higher than other EU countries yet we suffer from much more congestion. Again that's because of underfunding. You can have the point that labour underfunded it as well. But for how much longer can this Tory government look back and blame others, isn't it about time they started taking some responsibility for the absolute state the country is in?

[fuchsntf]

22 minutes ago, MattP said:

 

You've completely lost your marbles.

Hard or soft marbles...??

[Guest Foxin_mad]

9 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

I'm simply commenting on that fact that wages have been falling for eight years - almost a whole generation. You clearly have no answer.

 

On roads, this Tory government has overseen them falling to a dangerous level of disrepair, presumably in the name of austerity. 

 

On congestion, the population density of the UK is not a great deal higher than other EU countries yet we suffer from much more congestion. Again that's because of underfunding. You can have the point that labour underfunded it as well. But for how much longer can this Tory government look back and blame others, isn't it about time they started taking some responsibility for the absolute state the country is in?

Tough economic times due to an incompetent previous Labour government. What can we do.

 

Dangerous?! please show evidence of which you presumably have none. UK Roads are the 2nd Safest in Europe behind Sweden. Just because one bloke fell off his bike doesn't make the roads dangerous.

 

Other countries have better public transport than the UK. Public transport has been neglected for many years. The country doesn't have a transportation plan, no political party does. Nationalising rail or bus travel would not improve the fact that it is crap and expensive. 

 

Infrastructure projects take a long time to plan and implement, during the boom period under Labour we did not spend enough on infrastructure. Instead we spent money on swelling the public sector payroll and vanity projects. Hence why right now we are looking at issues where we may not have enough energy to meet our requirements in future years. This is why I would argue politicians should not be making infrastructure plans or if they are it should be in the national interest. How long have people been talking about HS2 for instance? When it is built it will be out of date and crap. 

 

When you let 10 million new people into the country you need to build infrastructure to support that Labour never did, the Tories are now having to fix a country on the basis of a near bankrupt economy. First they have had to fend off bankruptcy soon they will be able to start  much delayed infrastructure spending. I would say the population density in some of the more populated areas (south east) is higher than average. 

[Innovindil]

52 minutes ago, Beechey said:

Ah, any clue where I can find it? Wondering if the recent weather has made the already crap roads even worse.

Definitely noticing potholes that weren't there pre-snow on my journey to work and back. Royal pain in the ass. 

[Rogstanley]

7 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

1) Tough economic times due to an incompetent previous Labour government. What can we do.

 

2) Dangerous?! please show evidence of which you presumably have none. UK Roads are the 2nd Safest in Europe behind Sweden. Just because one bloke fell off his bike doesn't make the roads dangerous.

 

3) Other countries have better public transport than the UK. Public transport has been neglected for many years. The country doesn't have a transportation plan, no political party does. Nationalising rail or bus travel would not improve the fact that it is crap and expensive. 

 

4) Infrastructure projects take a long time to plan and implement, during the boom period under Labour we did not spend enough on infrastructure. Instead we spent money on swelling the public sector payroll and vanity projects. Hence why right now we are looking at issues where we may not have enough energy to meet our requirements in future years. This is why I would argue politicians should not be making infrastructure plans or if they are it should be in the national interest. How long have people been talking about HS2 for instance? When it is built it will be out of date and crap. 

 

5) When you let 10 million new people into the country you need to build infrastructure to support that Labour never did, the Tories are now having to fix a country on the basis of a near bankrupt economy. First they have had to fend off bankruptcy soon they will be able to start  much delayed infrastructure spending. I would say the population density in some of the more populated areas (south east) is higher than average. 

1) no I'm not having that. You lot have been in power for eight years and have done **** all the help anyone but the rich. You simply cannot keep blaming labour for all your failures.

 

2) the roads are in such a terrible state after years of Tory underfunding that people are having accidents. There's your evidence.

 

3) Yes other countries have better roads and better public transport than the UK. Why hasn't this Tory government sorted it out? In nearly a decade it has done nothing but get worse!

 

4) Pitiful excuse and again i'm not accepting that all the blame belongs with what labour did many years ago. Eight years is more than enough time to get a grip on things but under this Tory government things are just getting worse and worse and worse.

 

5) other countries take in immigrants and other countries have the same and higher levels of population density without nearly the level of congestion we suffer. You lot have had nearly a decade to sort things out but have sat in your arses doing **** all instead and now the country is in a total mess. Maybe one of your rich boys you love so much will build the roads for us? Thought not!

[Buce]

 

Just so everybody is arguing from a position of accuracy:

 

1) The government are responsible for the repair of motorways and trunk roads.

2) All other roads are the responsibility of the relevant local council.

3) 'Road Tax' (or whatever they call it now) goes directly to the treasury.

[Buce]

50 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

Whats the point of having a blue water navy if you won't use it to protect your fishing land. Any ****ing boat with "Santa" at the start if the name gets shelled no exceptions 

 

 

There will no presents for you this Xmas my boy.