Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Strokes]

42 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

I'm simply commenting on that fact that wages have been falling for eight years - almost a whole generation. You clearly have no answer.

 

On roads, this Tory government has overseen them falling to a dangerous level of disrepair, presumably in the name of austerity. 

 

On congestion, the population density of the UK is not a great deal higher than other EU countries yet we suffer from much more congestion. Again that's because of underfunding. You can have the point that labour underfunded it as well. But for how much longer can this Tory government look back and blame others, isn't it about time they started taking some responsibility for the absolute state the country is in?

I love how you have changed it to 8 years now, you said it was a decade a few back and now you realise that makes your point weak

 

[Guest Foxin_mad]

2 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I love how you have changed it to 8 years now, you said it was a decade a few back and now you realise that makes your point weak

 

Because he is just having a rant about the Tory scum and rich bogeymen, there is absolutely nothing quantifiable in any of his recent posts. Must be a bad day.

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

Tough economic times due to an incompetent previous Labour government. What can we do.

 

Dangerous?! please show evidence of which you presumably have none. UK Roads are the 2nd Safest in Europe behind Sweden. Just because one bloke fell off his bike doesn't make the roads dangerous.

 

Other countries have better public transport than the UK. Public transport has been neglected for many years. The country doesn't have a transportation plan, no political party does. Nationalising rail or bus travel would not improve the fact that it is crap and expensive. 

 

Infrastructure projects take a long time to plan and implement, during the boom period under Labour we did not spend enough on infrastructure. Instead we spent money on swelling the public sector payroll and vanity projects. Hence why right now we are looking at issues where we may not have enough energy to meet our requirements in future years. This is why I would argue politicians should not be making infrastructure plans or if they are it should be in the national interest. How long have people been talking about HS2 for instance? When it is built it will be out of date and crap. 

 

When you let 10 million new people into the country you need to build infrastructure to support that Labour never did, the Tories are now having to fix a country on the basis of a near bankrupt economy. First they have had to fend off bankruptcy soon they will be able to start  much delayed infrastructure spending. I would say the population density in some of the more populated areas (south east) is higher than average. 

Fox. Come on. You've been more sensible recently, don't spoil out now.

 

Labour were not at fault for the financial crisis. Tax receipts dropped by about £100b leading to a huge deficit. The fact we had a manageable deficit previously (supported by the Tories who had waved through the finance bills) was neither here nor there. 

 

The economy was also not nearly bankrupt. That is complete nonsense. Firstly we can't be bankrupt with our own fiat currency and second all that was required to reduce the deficit was to get the economy growing again. 

 

By all means attack current labour policy but don't revise history based on tory politically motivated attacks from a decade ago. Even osborne has rolled back and admitted it wasn't Labour's fault.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

3 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Fox. Come on. You've been more sensible recently, don't spoil out now.

 

Labour were not at fault for the financial crisis. Tax receipts dropped by about £100b leading to a huge deficit. The fact we had a manageable deficit previously (supported by the Tories who had waved through the finance bills) was neither here nor there. 

 

The economy was also not nearly bankrupt. That is complete nonsense. Firstly we can't be bankrupt with our own fiat currency and second all that was required to reduce the deficit was to get the economy growing again. 

 

By all means attack current labour policy but don't revise history based on tory politically motivated attacks from a decade ago. Even osborne has rolled back and admitted it wasn't Labour's fault.

I disagree but lets leave it there. As we have been around this block many times.

Edited 20 March 2018 by Foxin_mad

[Rogstanley]

9 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I love how you have changed it to 8 years now, you said it was a decade a few back and now you realise that makes your point weak

 

8 years, a decade, honestly it has been so many years of falling wages I lose count.

[Strokes]

4 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

8 years, a decade, honestly it has been so many years of falling wages I lose count.

Ok then 

[Rogstanley]

Just now, Strokes said:

Ok then 

Wages have been falling since the financial crisis. Obviously the financial crisis was the cause initially so Labour have got an excuse and depending on whether or not you believe labour were at fault for the global financial crisis which started in the USA and spread all over the world you can decide how acceptable that excuse is. There's your two additional years from eight to make the decade. Now, what excuse have this Tory government got for wages to still be falling a decade later when businesses are making record profits?

[Strokes]

1 minute ago, Rogstanley said:

Wages have been falling since the financial crisis. Obviously the financial crisis was the cause initially so Labour have got an excuse and depending on whether or not you believe labour were at fault for the global financial crisis which started in the USA and spread all over the world you can decide how acceptable that excuse is. There's your two additional years from eight to make the decade. Now, what excuse have this Tory government got for wages to still be falling a decade later when businesses are making record profits?

To balance the books after labour spunked all the money up the wall propping up failed banks and bankers. This is how long it takes to repair that damage.

[Strokes]

Governments borrowing money, is just delayed taxes. We are paying for those wage rises now instead of at the time.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

14 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

Wages have been falling since the financial crisis. Obviously the financial crisis was the cause initially so Labour have got an excuse and depending on whether or not you believe labour were at fault for the global financial crisis which started in the USA and spread all over the world you can decide how acceptable that excuse is. There's your two additional years from eight to make the decade. Now, what excuse have this Tory government got for wages to still be falling a decade later when businesses are making record profits?

£1.56 Trillion Debt

Deficit

£85000 debt per capita

£50 billion per year debt interest payment. 

 

This so called Global economic crisis didn't seem to affect:

 

Australia

China

Canada

Hong Kong

New Zealand

Brazil

Singapore

Low Debt Eurozone countries

 

Strange its almost like they tried to blame and external factor for their failings and people (Guardian/Mirror readers) brought it!

 

 

Edited 20 March 2018 by Foxin_mad

[Rogstanley]

5 minutes ago, Strokes said:

To balance the books after labour spunked all the money up the wall propping up failed banks and bankers. This is how long it takes to repair that damage.

The deficit has already been eradicated thanks to increased tax on business.

 

You're telling me the government have intentionally suppressed wages for nearly a decade for no reason? That's criminal mismanagement. Awful.

[Rogstanley]

6 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

£1.56 Trillion Debt

Deficit

£85000 debt per capita

£50 billion per year debt interest payment. 

 

This so called Global economic crisis didn't seem to affect:

 

Australia

China

Canada

Hong Kong

Japan

New Zealand

 

Strange its almost like they tried to blame and external factor for their failings and people (Guardian/Mirror readers) brought it!

 

 

Debt interest as a percentage of GDP is not high by historical standards. Labour never used that as an excuse, wages boomed.

[ealingfox]

6 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

£1.56 Trillion Debt

Deficit

£85000 debt per capita

£50 billion per year debt interest payment. 

 

This so called Global economic crisis didn't seem to affect:

 

Australia

China

Canada

Hong Kong

New Zealand

 

Strange its almost like they tried to blame and external factor for their failings and people (Guardian/Mirror readers) brought it!

 

 

 

Don't be dishonest. This isn't speculation. There was a financial crisis which affected most of the globe, caused by collapse in the US housing market. It's fact, not a conspiracy.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

2 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

Debt interest as a percentage of GDP is not high by historical standards. Labour never used that as an excuse, wages boomed.

Because it has been brought under control. If Labour had been allowed to be in power it would have been out of control, this country would be an absolute basket case.

 

You worry about low wages now! I would be more worried about no wages, not jobs and no public services. That is a very real possibility under a Labour government who have absolutely no coherent economic plan other than debt, taxes, magic money trees, free stuff and magic unicorns. 

[Guest MattP]

2 minutes ago, ealingfox said:

Don't be dishonest. This isn't speculation. There was a financial crisis which affected most of the globe, caused by collapse in the US housing market. It's fact, not a conspiracy.

It was, but don't completely dissolve the government of any blame, look at the deficits being run in 06 and 07 after the economic boom. Brown couldn't stop signing cheques to show how wonderful everything it was.

 

Some countries saw this coming and weathered the storm far better than others.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

10 minutes ago, ealingfox said:

 

Don't be dishonest. This isn't speculation. There was a financial crisis which affected most of the globe, caused by collapse in the US housing market. It's fact, not a conspiracy.

Its not dishonest when it didn't affect part of the globe at least as much. 

 

Poland and Slovakia two other countries that did not have a recession. 

 

Its overstated. The collapse of the US housing market should not have caused the collapse of UK banks, which possibly should not have been bailed out. It didn't need to affect us as much as it did if we had been better prepared and regulated. 

 

The government and opposition at the time got things wrong. 

 

 

Edited 20 March 2018 by Foxin_mad

[Strokes]

9 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

The deficit has already been eradicated thanks to increased tax on business.

 

You're telling me the government have intentionally suppressed wages for nearly a decade for no reason? That's criminal mismanagement. Awful.

I didnt say that.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

12 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

The deficit has already been eradicated thanks to increased tax on business.

 

Bloody TORY SCUM SHITS

[Guest MattP]

People finally seem to have woken up to what they might be electing. 

 

Westminster voting intention:

CON: 44% (+1)
LAB: 41% (-1)
LDEM: 8% (+1)
GRN: 2% (-1)
UKIP: 1% (-1) <- new low

via @ICM Research, 16 - 18 Mar

[Guest Kopfkino]

43 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

£1.56 Trillion Debt

Deficit

£85000 debt per capita

£50 billion per year debt interest payment. 

 

This so called Global economic crisis didn't seem to affect:

 

Australia

China

Canada

Hong Kong

New Zealand

Brazil

Singapore

Low Debt Eurozone countries

 

Strange its almost like they tried to blame and external factor for their failings and people (Guardian/Mirror readers) brought it!

 

 

 

27 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

Its not dishonest when it didn't affect part of the globe at least as much. 

 

Poland and Slovakia two other countries that did not have a recession. 

 

Its overstated. The collapse of the US housing market should not have caused the collapse of UK banks, which possibly should not have been bailed out. It didn't need to affect us as much as it did if we had been better prepared and regulated. 

 

The government and opposition at the time got things wrong. 

 

 

 

Admittedly, it's a bit misleading to call it a global financial crisis, more a western financial crisis with varying levels of propagation to the rest of the world. But it really is daft to lay the blame at the Labour government's door. I think the bold bit is completely wrong.

 

Most of this is comparing Apples with Oranges, it's almost like saying Djibouti grew by 8% last year, it's the Conservative's fault our economy didnt.

 

China - very daft to even consider comparing China with the UK. I think China had the biggest stimulus package ever

Australia - benefitted from China being on its doorstep continuing to demand its natural resources, weakening currency protecting exports, and actually a well spent government stimulus (didn't have to bail out banks with balance sheets bigger than its GDP). But I think I'm right that if you break Australia down, some regions didn't do well at all, the national picture covers it up a bit. 

Canada - it might have been more mild but it certainly did suffer. (I think I remember reading that their biggest banks were in a much healthier position which helped the recovery). Again benefitted from China's demand for resources and a depreciated currency

Hong Kong - China(?) small city state(?) yeah idk why. Probably the same with Singapore

New Zealand - I thought it did suffer (?) Probably helps that it's economy isn't quite so closely linked to the US nor is it comprised 11% by financial services, unlike us. Idk. Probably similar to Oz. Will give it a read now actually

Poland - again it's structurally a completely different economy. Certainly isn't built on high credit to the same degree (same for a lot of places compared to UK) which must have helped. I'm going to say also the net inflow from the EU coupled with a big home market helped insulate them, maybe wrong. 

 

[Guest Kopfkino]

14 minutes ago, MattP said:

People finally seem to have woken up to what they might be electing. 

 

Westminster voting intention:

CON: 44% (+1)
LAB: 41% (-1)
LDEM: 8% (+1)
GRN: 2% (-1)
UKIP: 1% (-1) <- new low

via @ICM Research, 16 - 18 Mar

 

Personally would only pay attention to YouGov still. They got the GE almost bang on which seems to suggest they have a better handling of it.

 

Labour lost 4 points after the Russia response, so will have to see how that holds up when it's put to back of people's minds. They haven't done a best PM poll since which will be the next interesting one. 

[Webbo]

20 minutes ago, MattP said:

People finally seem to have woken up to what they might be electing. 

 

Westminster voting intention:

CON: 44% (+1)
LAB: 41% (-1)
LDEM: 8% (+1)
GRN: 2% (-1)
UKIP: 1% (-1) <- new low

via @ICM Research, 16 - 18 Mar

I certainly think the tide has turned. toddy seems to be distancing himself from the Corbynistas and whenever I remind Rog that he's a tory he doesn't have the heart to deny it.

[Izzy]

6 hours ago, toddybad said:

Looking forward to the day my wages go up in real terms after I've spent the last 8 years taking the hit for the bankers. If I give up a days leave I can have 3% this year followed by two years of around 1.5% - so back to losing money. If I don't lose a days leave it'll be 1% for the next 3 years. What a lovely choice. I'm glad to be held personally responsible for the banking crisis in this way.

I assume your employer are not holding a gun to your head and making you work there against your will? 

 

Rather than sounding like an entitled Arsenal fan, why don't you pro-actively do something about your own situation rather than wait for the government to sort your life out?

[Webbo]

Two Labour councillors in Nottinghamshire have quit the party and joined the Conservatives.

Chris Baron and Lee Anderson, both Ashfield district councillors, blamed campaign group Momentum for their decision to defect to the Tories.

Mr Baron previously lead the Labour-run authority while Mr Anderson worked for Ashfield's Labour MP, Gloria De Piero.

The left-wing group Momentum was established to back Jeremy Corbyn's initial Labour leadership campaign.

Live updates from the East Midlands
The pair were among more than 600 Labour councillors across the country who called on Mr Corbyn to stand down as leader of the party in 2016.

Mr Baron - who was suspended in 2016 for poor attendance at council meetings - now sits with the Conservative group on Ashfield District Council.

He said: "It is disappointing for me after over 30 years in the Labour Party, but the Labour Party is not the Labour Party I joined."

'Difficult decision'
Mr Anderson, who was handed a four-month suspension when he hired a digger and placed concrete blocks to stop travellers illegally camping in a car park, said: "The Labour Party has been taken over by the hard-left and Momentum in particular and I will play no part in that.

"It's been a very difficult decision to come to."

Ms De Piero thanked Mr Anderson, who was her office manager, but added: "If he has had a political change of heart and decided to leave the Labour Party and join the Conservatives, that's a matter entirely for him."

Labour leader of Ashfield District Council, Cheryl Butler, said: "The electorate put their faith in these people when they voted for them as Labour Party candidates, they have now let these residents down."

Following their change of party there are now five Conservative councillors on Ashfield District Council, with 18 Labour councillors remaining. Ashfield Independents have nine representatives and there are three independent councillors.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-43471848

[Sharpe's Fox]

1 hour ago, Kopfkino said:

 

Personally would only pay attention to YouGov still. They got the GE almost bang on which seems to suggest they have a better handling of it.

“Bang on”