Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Guest]

3 hours ago, MattP said:

Just a couple of weeks ago you were demanding to pay more tax, what's changed?

I'm sure it feels great being clever about decisions that affect other people's ability to pay the bills. 

 

Tax and ni are around a third of any pay rise. I'd gladly pay more a higher % of tax to fix our public services.

[Rogstanley]

18 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

Do you know what the word direction means or no? 

 

Wages falling less than before = positive direction. Can't believe it needs spelling out tbh. 

If "wages are still falling but less than before" is now considered "the right direction" then we've lost all sense of ambition in this country really haven't we.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Foxin_mad said:

Well I assume if all these extra wages kick start the economy like you say it will then in the 3rd year we should all be flying so I am sure they will be able revise it. 

So let's have a 2-year deal then?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Strokes said:

That’s what I’m saying, it’s alright but not lavish. People think all public sector jobs are cushy and have much more benefits compared to the private sector but it’s not always the case.

Thank you for providing some balance on the subject of public sector conditions.

 

 

35 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

It does to some, there can be no positive especially if the TORY SCUM are involved. 

 

What we really need is borrowing, debt, deficit, money printing, inflate away debt, investment, pay rises, tax, nationalisation = loadsa growth its dead simple. JEZZA GONNA FIX IT TM

Presumably you ignored the IMF report I posted earlier then?

Edited 21 March 2018 by Guest

[Guest]

13 hours ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

Probably when the likes of you and Toddy started to constantly keep talking us down

I think this is unfair.

As rog says, we criticise what deserves to be criticised. 

Even if you won't vote for labour, surely the honest position is to say that pubic services are in decline. There aren't many analysis that will show anything else. 

I happen to think that this isn't a good thing. I don't think record personal debt is a good thing. I don't think falling wages is a good thing. I don't think the slowest economic recovery of all time is a good thing.

I want to see change but that isn't 'talking us down'. Thats the sort of horse manure that jrm says about remainers because they don't agree with him. I just believe a change of direction world improve the country for ordinary people.

[Innovindil]

38 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

If "wages are still falling but less than before" is now considered "the right direction" then we've lost all sense of ambition in this country really haven't we.

Will you be saying the same later this year when wages are rising? Or will you switch to "we're still poorer compared to 2008" then when that horse has been beaten to a bloody pulp I'm sure you can switch to "we're not raising as much as X country". 

 

Same stick. Same horse. Means very little to me. 

[Rogstanley]

4 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

Will you be saying the same later this year when wages are rising? Or will you switch to "we're still poorer compared to 2008" then when that horse has been beaten to a bloody pulp I'm sure you can switch to "we're not raising as much as X country". 

 

Same stick. Same horse. Means very little to me. 

Let’s see if wages do start rising first, but yes assuming that even happens I’d find any rodomontading from your side a bit premature given how far wages have fallen since the Tories began their rule. When wages have caught up on both what they’ve lost since 2010 and the growth they should have seen since, then you can think about celebrating.

[Innovindil]

10 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

Let’s see if wages do start rising first, but yes assuming that even happens I’d find any rodomontading from your side a bit premature given how far wages have fallen since the Tories began their rule. When wages have caught up on both what they’ve lost since 2010 and the growth they should have seen since, then you can think about celebrating.

I've been celebrating since about 3 months after the referendum. Bit late to give your permission. 

[Guest]

Retailers having a hard time with Carpetright and Moss Bros the latest to get into trouble and B&Q have issued a profit warning.

[Guest]

All very interesting, particularly given the Tories recently announced they were gong to use a troll army

 

In his questions Ian Blackford, the SNP leader at Westminster, asked about the Cambridge Analytica scandal. He started:

Does the prime minister agree that subverting the democratic political process in any country is totally unacceptable?

May said she backed free and fair elections.

Blackford went on:

Can I point out that the parent company of Cambridge Analytica, Strategic Communications Laboratory, it has been run by a chairman of Oxford Conservative Association, its founding chairman was a former Conservative MP, a director appears to have donated over £700,000 to the Tory party, a former Conservative party chairman is a shareholder. We know about the links to the Conservative party, they go on and on.

May said the government had no links to Cambridge Analytica or its parent company. She said:

[Blackford] has been talking about two companies. As far as I’m aware the government has no current contracts with CA or with the SCL group ... The allegations are clearly very concerning, it is absolutely right they should be properly investigated.

I would expect Facebook, Cambridge Analytica and all organisations involved to comply fully with the investigation taking place.

 

And there's this 

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4044728/amp/Theresa-wants-use-army-computerised-Trump-mind-readers-help-win-Election.html?__twitter_impression=true

 

 

[leicsmac]

TBH speculation about Cambridge Analytica being involved in the UK political process isn't helpful right now. Would much rather they get nailed for what they likely have done (viz. key part of the Trump victory) first, and then during that investigation see if anything concrete comes up regarding action by them in the UK.

[leicsmac]

And related:

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-43480978

 

FWIW I'm inclined to believe that Dr Kogan is telling the truth here and that the suits at Cambridge Analytica used him and are now throwing him under the bus.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

1 hour ago, toddybad said:

So let's have a 2-year deal then?

I have no problem with that. To be honest I have for a long time supported to removal of the pay cap for the public sector workers at the lower end of the pay scales. What I couldn't justify is for example the Chief of Leicester City Council getting 6% on his already astronomical pay package. 

 

All being well more can be afforded but obviously a lot depends on the effects and result of Brexit.

 

1 hour ago, toddybad said:

 

Presumably you ignored the IMF report I posted earlier then?

I did read it actually.

 

Interesting of course there are a lot of 'ifs' and 'buts' in there, effectively they don't really know. Its a research paper, not and IMF official document. 

 

My biggest issue is that what Labour are proposing in my view does not do any of this. They haven't set out to me what most of the money they propose to spend will actually be spent on. They have sound bited nationalising railways and energy which wont benefit the economy in any way, and aging rail and power network is going to struggle to return on investment. Paying off student debt again, wont exact see much return. I haven't seen any cast iron infrastructure proposals from Labour that suggest the spending would increase our output to the 7% needed to pay back the debt. 

 

Obviously we have fundamental disagreements about debt. No one will ever convince me that it is ever a good thing. Unless you can prove it will be paid back, which no one can. 

[Guest MattP]

28 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

TBH speculation about Cambridge Analytica being involved in the UK political process isn't helpful right now. Would much rather they get nailed for what they likely have done (viz. key part of the Trump victory) first, and then during that investigation see if anything concrete comes up regarding action by them in the UK.

Why do these things only become a problem when it results in election results that the establishment don't like? 

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, MattP said:

Why do these things only become a problem when it results in election results that the establishment don't like? 

Depends on whether or not you think that CA's work was a key part of Trumps victory this time round and whether or not whichever team the Obama reelection campaign used in 2012 was a key part of their victory then.

 

I would posit that the former is more likely than the latter. 

 

Defintely agree that the only way to not be manipulated is to not give your data to FB in the first place, though.

[Strokes]

34 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

TBH speculation about Cambridge Analytica being involved in the UK political process isn't helpful right now. Would much rather they get nailed for what they likely have done (viz. key part of the Trump victory) first, and then during that investigation see if anything concrete comes up regarding action by them in the UK.

It is unhelpful but obviously it’s natural to be concerned. It’s a bit like doping in sports this shit and you do wonder how far the disease has spread.

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

It is unhelpful but obviously it’s natural to be concerned. It’s a bit like doping in sports this shit and you do wonder how far the disease has spread.

Yeah, it would be useful to know. There's clearly a lot that goes on regarding social media and political campaigning that isn't well known about - but one thing at a time IMO.

[Strokes]

12 minutes ago, MattP said:

Why do these things only become a problem when it results in election results that the establishment don't like? 

I totally agree and people should be mindful that there is a lot more to come from this CA story, so I’d advise to all, wait before slinging mud. This could be a modern Watergate.

Edited 21 March 2018 by Strokes

[Strokes]

Just now, leicsmac said:

Yeah, it would be useful to know. There's clearly a lot that goes on regarding social media and political campaigning that isn't well known about - but one thing at a time IMO.

It’s weird, one of the main reasons I quit Facebook was people sharing political points that in normal converse displayed no political interest. It frustrated the hell out of me. I’m wondering whether they ever shared it at all now.

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

I totally agree and people should be mindful that there is a lot more to come from this CA story, so I’d advise to all, wait before slinging mud. This is a modern Watergate.

This should probably be in the US thread, but tbh the current administration appears like an amalgamation of the policy of the Reagan admin combined with the tricks of the Nixon one.

 

Not quite sure if it's 1972 or 1981 all over again.

 

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

It’s weird, one of the main reasons I quit Facebook was people sharing political points that in normal converse displayed no political interest. It frustrated the hell out of me. I’m wondering whether they ever shared it at all now.

That's a fair question.

[Rogstanley]

43 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

I have no problem with that. To be honest I have for a long time supported to removal of the pay cap for the public sector workers at the lower end of the pay scales. What I couldn't justify is for example the Chief of Leicester City Council getting 6% on his already astronomical pay package. 

 

All being well more can be afforded but obviously a lot depends on the effects and result of Brexit.

 

I did read it actually.

 

Interesting of course there are a lot of 'ifs' and 'buts' in there, effectively they don't really know. Its a research paper, not and IMF official document. 

 

My biggest issue is that what Labour are proposing in my view does not do any of this. They haven't set out to me what most of the money they propose to spend will actually be spent on. They have sound bited nationalising railways and energy which wont benefit the economy in any way, and aging rail and power network is going to struggle to return on investment. Paying off student debt again, wont exact see much return. I haven't seen any cast iron infrastructure proposals from Labour that suggest the spending would increase our output to the 7% needed to pay back the debt. 

 

Obviously we have fundamental disagreements about debt. No one will ever convince me that it is ever a good thing. Unless you can prove it will be paid back, which no one can. 

Where have you got 7% from. All you need for borrowing to invest to make economic sense is a return higher than the cost of borrowing which is much less than 7%.

Edited 21 March 2018 by Rogstanley

[Rogstanley]

1 hour ago, Innovindil said:

I've been celebrating since about 3 months after the referendum. Bit late to give your permission. 

Ok Meursault calm down.

[Innovindil]

8 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

Ok Meursault calm down.

Can't give your permission to celebrate then tell someone to calm down. Terrible u-turn. Definitely a tory in disguise. 

[Rogstanley]

5 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

Can't give your permission to celebrate then tell someone to calm down. Terrible u-turn. Definitely a tory in disguise. 

Clearly i wasn't talking about your personal wages. Nobody gives a shit about that. What is of concern is the overall movement of wages in the country and that has been down down down down since the Tories took over.

[Innovindil]

9 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

Clearly i wasn't talking about your personal wages. Nobody gives a shit about that. What is of concern is the overall movement of wages in the country and that has been down down down down since the Tories took over.

Has it? Haven't seen you mention it before. 

 

Is it on the way back up?