Fox Ulike Posted 22 March 2018 Share Posted 22 March 2018 16 minutes ago, CarbonVirtine said: Not without web searching for it. Channel 4 news showed some examples, claims about 'crooked Hilary' etc. Ahhh OK yes. I think the penny's dropping. Thanks! Crooked Hilary : This has an impact if Trump is paying CA to drop secret messages saying this on people's Facebook, and then he’s re-inforcing that message in his own speeches. Wow. Yes. Very clever. Vey devious. OK. I’m onside now. J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 22 March 2018 Share Posted 22 March 2018 (edited) 17 minutes ago, CarbonVirtine said: So if someone wishes to elect someone because they have the nicest hair, for example, then we have to accept it. I'd agree with that, and all its logical inferences. People are allowed to vote for whoever they wish, for whatever reason, by whatever decision making process they might use. That is democracy. I guess the challenge for those us who want people to be more fact based is to be aware of what's going on and and to challenge it as necessary, by presenting another view. Key to that however is transparency; knowing where the message is coming from and the motivation behind it so that it can be tackled. So, yes, I agree. Finally! I'll side my ethical dilemma for the present. The more concerning aspect is the use of targeted 'fake news' deliberately intended to manipulate and produce an outcome. 5 The idealist in me agrees with this pretty much wholeheartedly as the way things should be. The cynic in me thinks that such a pathway of voting based on passion (as history shows) leads to authoritarian disaster as often as not and that is very, very difficult to stop. Edited 22 March 2018 by leicsmac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby Hundreds Posted 22 March 2018 Share Posted 22 March 2018 I think people are very naive if they didn't think Facebook/Google/Microsoft etc was/is doing this from their data and online fingerprint. I'd like to believe it was older generations and luddites that have fallen into this trap more than a generation brought up in the digital age, but sadly some news reports suggest not. Old Abe Lincoln had a point... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 22 March 2018 Share Posted 22 March 2018 I'm amazed anybody is questioning whether it's a subversion of democracy. Politicians using stats to argue completely separate opinions is one thing. The daily mail reporting particular stories over others is something else. But for a political figure or party to pay a company to issue fake news targeting specific voters based on their in built beliefs, using a database of these beliefs which had been gathered by stealth, is an absolute subversion of democracy. There needs to be a serious look to see if laws have been broken and if they haven't new laws need to be written. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 22 March 2018 Share Posted 22 March 2018 6 hours ago, Alf Bentley said: What do Brexit fans reckon to this? https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/03/21/brexiteers-furious-dutch-company-poised-win-contract-make-iconic/ Although Minister Hancock is backtracking and saying it isn't a done deal, the new "blue" (black, surely?) British passport is currently set to be made by a Franco-Dutch firm. The British firm that makes the existing British/EU passports has been told that it has lost to a Franco-Dutch firm in the tendering process as that firm is asking a lower price. Should it be seen as just business in a free market - if the French firm offered a better deal, then fair enough? But the British firm has presumably proved its reliability while making the existing passport. So, is it a case of the Govt just saving a few quid by exporting British jobs to France? Surprising that the French firm could undercut the British firm, anyway, when the fall in the pound has made imports more expensive. I was also reading (not sure if true) that France insists its own passports are made in France for security reasons. I suppose there's an argument that we're still playing by EU competition rules (though maybe other countries aren't playing so strictly by those rules?). Maybe some time after 2020 the UK might set its own rules.....but that will depend whether we agree to mirror EU competition laws post-2020, if Theresa is serious about wanting a "deep and erotic" relationship with the EU, or whatever... I've been banging on about free trade and against protectionism. I have no problem with this at all. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 22 March 2018 Share Posted 22 March 2018 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Webbo said: I've been banging on about free trade and against protectionism. I have no problem with this at all. Even if you were against it, we are still subject to EU law. It has to go out to tender and we can’t exclude non EU firms from bidding even if we wanted too. I think even under WTO membership you have to allow international companies to bid in a procurement tender. Edited 22 March 2018 by Strokes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 22 March 2018 Share Posted 22 March 2018 1 minute ago, Strokes said: Even if you were against it, we are still subject to EU law. It has to go out to tender and we can’t exclude non EU firms from bidding even if we wanted too. I think even under WTO membership you have to allow international companies to bid in a procurement tender. What I find ironic is it was the remainers on here who told me I was being stupid for being against protectionism. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 22 March 2018 Share Posted 22 March 2018 1 minute ago, Webbo said: What I find ironic is it was the remainers on here who told me I was being stupid for being against protectionism. It’s a baited story, the passport contract was up for renewal and they are changing the colour for symbolic reasons. It’s not like we’ve gone right......brexit, let’s change the colour of the passports, who can do it? The contract is renewed every 5 years, this just happened to include a colour change. The only thing that does annoy me, is the defence that £180m cheaper saves the taxpayer money. Does it? British money going to a British firm paying British wages spent in a British economy.....Surely it makes its way back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogstanley Posted 22 March 2018 Share Posted 22 March 2018 18 minutes ago, Webbo said: What I find ironic is it was the remainers on here who told me I was being stupid for being against protectionism. 10 minutes ago, Strokes said: It’s a baited story, the passport contract was up for renewal and they are changing the colour for symbolic reasons. It’s not like we’ve gone right......brexit, let’s change the colour of the passports, who can do it? The contract is renewed every 5 years, this just happened to include a colour change. The only thing that does annoy me, is the defence that £180m cheaper saves the taxpayer money. Does it? British money going to a British firm paying British wages spent in a British economy.....Surely it makes its way back? So to be clear you don’t agree with each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 22 March 2018 Share Posted 22 March 2018 2 minutes ago, Rogstanley said: So to be clear you don’t agree with each other. Sometimes we disagree with each other, whereas you disagree with Moosebreath, Bunk Morland, Dave the Caveman and probably a dozen others. At least we don't have a split personality.. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 22 March 2018 Share Posted 22 March 2018 10 minutes ago, Rogstanley said: So to be clear you don’t agree with each other. There is nothing to agree or disagree with. It’s a non story, it couldn’t be done any other way regardless of feelings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogstanley Posted 22 March 2018 Share Posted 22 March 2018 Just now, Strokes said: There is nothing to agree or disagree with. It’s a non story, it couldn’t be done any other way regardless of feelings. No Webbo was saying he doesn’t want to restrict where the passports are produced because that’s protectionism, which he hates. Whereas you implied you’d prefer them to be produced in the UK because that provides British jobs paying British taxes, which is protectionism. You’re at polar opposites really. It’s not a problem, I just wanted to clarify as you were both responding to each other as if you were in agreement when clearly you’re not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 22 March 2018 Share Posted 22 March 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Rogstanley said: No Webbo was saying he doesn’t want to restrict where the passports are produced because that’s protectionism, which he hates. Whereas you implied you’d prefer them to be produced in the UK because that provides British jobs paying British taxes, which is protectionism. You’re at polar opposites really. It’s not a problem, I just wanted to clarify as you were both responding to each other as if you were in agreement when clearly you’re not. It wasn’t my intention to imply that, I meant the argument that it is £180m cheaper, is flawed because of the money staying in the economy. I think things like that should be considered but are often overlooked however under FTA and WTO or EU law, this would always be the case for such contacts. Unless you could get exclusions for national security I guess. Edited 22 March 2018 by Strokes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 22 March 2018 Share Posted 22 March 2018 I don't care what the excuses are. This is a disgrace. An absolute disgrace. This government and this prime minister deserve to fall over shit like this. Theresa May refuses to intervene over man's £54,000 NHS cancer bill https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/22/theresa-may-refuses-to-intervene-over-mans-54000-nhs-cancer-bill-albert-thompson?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kopfkino Posted 22 March 2018 Share Posted 22 March 2018 9 minutes ago, toddybad said: I don't care what the excuses are. This is a disgrace. An absolute disgrace. This government and this prime minister deserve to fall over shit like this. Theresa May refuses to intervene over man's £54,000 NHS cancer bill https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/22/theresa-may-refuses-to-intervene-over-mans-54000-nhs-cancer-bill-albert-thompson?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard I was horrified when this came up at PMQs the other week. Everyone knows that the key to cancer treatment is urgency so I can't understand why this is deemed to be non-urgent. I also dare say of the many other potential cases, I suspect not many of them will be white Australians for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 22 March 2018 Share Posted 22 March 2018 11 minutes ago, toddybad said: I don't care what the excuses are. This is a disgrace. An absolute disgrace. This government and this prime minister deserve to fall over shit like this. Theresa May refuses to intervene over man's £54,000 NHS cancer bill https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/22/theresa-may-refuses-to-intervene-over-mans-54000-nhs-cancer-bill-albert-thompson?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard Surely if he has lived here that long he must have evidence. How has he been living and earning or claiming benefits without obvious evidence. It sounds like a health tourist too me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 22 March 2018 Share Posted 22 March 2018 Sorry scrap my comment, the whole article hadn’t loaded....I hadn’t seen the bit about 57,000 commonwealth immigrants being affected. I agree it needs dealing with ASAP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 22 March 2018 Share Posted 22 March 2018 Just now, Strokes said: Sorry scrap my comment, the whole article hadn’t loaded....I hadn’t seen the bit about 57,000 commonwealth immigrants being affected. I agree it needs dealing with ASAP. Saves my reply! Go on, say it, TM is a ****ing disgrace for ducking this. It'll make you feel better, I promise ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 22 March 2018 Share Posted 22 March 2018 1 minute ago, toddybad said: Saves my reply! Go on, say it, TM is a ****ing disgrace for ducking this. It'll make you feel better, I promise ? It needs sorting urgently, it’s a bonkers that we can’t see he has worked here for 3 decades and this is even a situation. She does need to intervene and make sure other eligible people are not at risk or she is a disgrace (there is still time to help). That’s the best I can do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 22 March 2018 Share Posted 22 March 2018 3 minutes ago, Strokes said: It needs sorting urgently, it’s a bonkers that we can’t see he has worked here for 3 decades and this is even a situation. She does need to intervene and make sure other eligible people are not at risk or she is a disgrace (there is still time to help). That’s the best I can do You're getting there. This is like self help. It's a tough mental hurdle stopping you living a wonderful, socialist life..... Just to press you, there is time, but he has cancer. So a little more urgency than you suggest is needed. I.e. When it was raised with her she could have shot the **** out the door and got something done asap. She can **** off. Can I move you a little closer to this position? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogstanley Posted 22 March 2018 Share Posted 22 March 2018 (edited) She found a billion down the sofa to save her career but can’t find a few thousand to help save a tax payer’s life. Says it all. Really, says it all about what a disgusting excuse for a person Theresa May is. She is absolutely ****ing detestable. I’ve never hated a politician as much as I hate that horrible witch. Edited 22 March 2018 by Rogstanley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 22 March 2018 Share Posted 22 March 2018 4 minutes ago, Rogstanley said: She found a billion down the sofa to save her career but can’t find a few thousand to help save a tax payer’s life. Says it all. Really, says it all about what a disgusting excuse for a person Theresa May is. She is absolutely ****ing detestable. I’ve never hated a politician as much as I hate that horrible witch. I can only assume you are too young to have endured Thatcher. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 22 March 2018 Share Posted 22 March 2018 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Rogstanley said: She found a billion down the sofa to save her career but can’t find a few thousand to help save a tax payer’s life. Says it all. Really, says it all about what a disgusting excuse for a person Theresa May is. She is absolutely ****ing detestable. I’ve never hated a politician as much as I hate that horrible witch. Time for a verse of kum ba yah? You sound stressed. Edited 22 March 2018 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 22 March 2018 Share Posted 22 March 2018 I actually wasn't aware of this until now but who better to tell the story than jonathan pie? I agree with Pie's sentiment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 23 March 2018 Share Posted 23 March 2018 This pretty much sums up the Brexit debate http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/brexiteer-tells-james-obrien-to-stop-giving-facts/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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